posted 01-26- 01:18 PM            

Currently in addition to a few fixes described on my site there are the following modifications to pp6.0 desired by the community. These will require online testing before standardization.
1. Spoonman's Loadouts
2. Condor's Engine Damage sm's
3. Pilot Kills - subject to development of the equivalent pilot sm for all current pilot versions required for the pack. A standard obHit value must be agreed on for these. Has anyone done this yet?

Other items coming to light recently to which I am not sure how to proceed.
1. ArgonV, Jerry and Commando have reported a mission editor bug that may be related to one of the loadout files (the A36A is suspected - however this has been around for over a year so I'm a little puzzled). I am unclear the source of this as I haven't been able to replicate the problem.
2. New aircraft. I am going to set up a poll soon to request feedback from the community on potential new planes. One in particular is the Ju 188 (if there are others please submit your request below - please confirm in the request if you want it as the developer/creator or as an avid user of the plane). I will post here later when poll is available.
3. Several planes are in various states of fm / dm / etc modifications. I am not sure when these new versions will be available and would like to solicit some potential availability dates from the people working on them. From that we can decide on a deadline for new submissions. My objective is to avoid making significant changes to a plane after the beta version of the pack is built unless it is required based on planepack testing feedback. So if you are still in the midst of making changes it is probably best to wait for the next update. However, if your update is in testing, perhaps you are planning to release the new version shortly.

The planes I am thinking about above include the P51D, Corsairs, and 109s. any others?

There are also spits with fixed texture maps.

To keep the update relatively small, I am hoping to release the update using Data13 only - sm files, pilot files, airfoil and loadout files. However, if necessary mission and texture info can be included if needed in specific situations.

For deadlines please see the separate topic I will post shortly.

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Spin

posted 01-26- 03:34 PM               

I'm not sure if Condor did a DM update on the two Aussie Spits not yet in the Pack, or the clipped-wing Vb I did for Desert Fox. I can put his DM into them, but maybe not in time for the update.

Figure 28 Jan for the Corsair beta and 2 Feb for Aussie/Desert Spit "Condorization."

posted 01-26- 03:51 PM               

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-=Make sims, not hype=-

posted 01-26- 05:22 PM               

I think the Do-17 will be ready for the plane pack. The FM may not be finished but it will fly like a bomber.

TS

posted 01-26- 05:41 PM               

Tail, if we go with the killable pilot, we ought to standardise this across all pilot models in the pack. If someone could let me know what additional pilots to modify and you could let me know what mods to make, I will volunteer for this one.

posted 01-26- 06:24 PM               

No dis to spoons work on this, but IMO this is not PP material and should be kept seperate but available from the PP download site for those that want to use it.

posted 01-26- 09:32 PM               

By any chance did you include any engine damage code in the new updated Fw190d.sm file?

If not, can you send me the updated Fw190d.sm file so I can look at it and see if I should add
engine damage to it?

Thanks,

posted 01-26- 10:22 PM               

You should include the Keyboard input file and the pdf version of the command sheets. If the pdf version isn't posted by cuppy before you are ready, I'll send the pdf file to you.

These should also be included in all plane packs.

posted 01-26- 11:37 PM               

P-38L still needs to get the gunpod working and the fm tweaked plus the normal stuff the F needs fixing.

Other then that, i have an A6M3 that could be included but it will just be a clipped wing version of the A6M5 with shaking guns in the cockpit, as of right now it has no engine DM.

posted 01-27- 03:22 AM               

I thought it would be interesting to unhide a transparent red box around the pilot head when he's killed since the red screen effect does not seem to work online but looks like I dont have time to do this.
http:\\tailslide.firelight.dynip.com\Files\killablepilotv2.zip

All I did to make the german one was to copy the torso and pilotsit children from the german pilot into the british pilot, delete the original brisish children and reposition the pilot so his eye level matched up with the arrow and resave under the german name.

TS

posted 01-27- 12:43 PM               

Anyway, what sort of obHits values are you using for your killable pilot? I'll switch mine to match so that the Navy pilots (manly though they clearly are) aren't any more bullet-proof than the "delicate" Europeans

posted 01-27- 03:31 PM               

6.1 will also eliminate flickering of damage textures reported by users running SDOE in Glide. May add some other things too.

posted 01-27- 06:14 PM               

Feel free to have a look at the file, its a small download.

posted 01-27- 10:59 PM               

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nealg=FC=

posted 01-30- 04:49 PM               

NEW: Sea Mosqutio with RATO's (632k) and includes nine training missions; available at:
http://members.nbci.com/sdoe_mace/seamosq.zip

UPDATE: Lancaster Mk II (440k) with new damage model and includes three animated crew members; available at:
http://members.nbci.com/sdoe_mace/lanc.zip

UPDATE: Lancaster Mk II (262k) with new damage model (only); available at:
http://members.nbci.com/sdoe_mace/lanc_dmg.zip

UPDATE: Seafire Mk I (531k) which includes eight training missions; available at:
http://members.nbci.com/sdoe_mace/seafire.zip

UPDATE: Sea Hurricane Mk I/II (720k) which includes thirteen training missions; available at:
http://members.nbci.com/sdoe_mace/seahurr.zip

UPDATE: Hurricane Mk I/II (567k) which includes ten training missions; available at:
http://members.nbci.com/sdoe_mace/hurr.zip

posted 01-30- 05:47 PM               

Pre-MG fix, you can put 1000 rounds into a single point on a wing of the Ju-88 and experience NO damage.

Post-MG fix, you can put 300 rounds into a single point on a wing of a Ju-88 and the wing falls off.

Pros:

• You can now make strafing runs with MG's on ships and ground targets
  
• You no longer rely on Cannon rounds to take out an opponent
  
• There is no guarentee that EVERY SDOE aircraft will have a) a killable pilot, b) Engine damage modelled
  

Cons:

• hmmm...
  
• ahhh...
  
• ummmm...
  

Bottom line, it doesn't hurt, and it makes online play enjoyable, with our without those killable pilots and engine damage.

Put it all in!

Spoon

posted 01-30- 10:11 PM               

Everyone always wants realism here, your loadouts aren't.

starfing ships with .303 would be funny to watch if you're a gunner on the ship, but other than having a laugh it shouldn't cause any damage at all unless someone adds crew that can be killed on the decks.

Cannon were added because low calibre MG's weren't very effective, why have cannon if MGs are just as good but have twice the rate of fire?

Now, like I said, neither I nor Nealg was having a dig at your loadouts, but they simply aren't plane pack material, that or they can go into the fantasy pack with the Ju88DN The last thing I want to be doing is having to go through all my loadouts after installing the patch and edit them back to how they should be, thats alot of editing. They make online fights better then fine, I've heard that from alot of people and I don't doubt it, but I don't fly online very often at all so they're no good to me. They should be an optional download like I said, then we get the choice rather than being forced into it and having to piss around putting everything right again.

I guess this must have touched a nerve with me and nealg not wanting them in the pack, sorry but I stand by my point, people say they are much better online so hats off to you, as I said it was never meant to dis the work you've done but I wouldn't like them in the plane pack.

~Nat~

You didn't need to defend your work Spoon.

posted 01-30- 11:19 PM               

Now on a completely other note....I'd like to at least see Spoon's midified flak guns as a possible addition. I know I am setting myself up to be roasted alive....but before you comment-- have you ever flown a bomber online before? We know that the flak guns are accurate-- but we also know in the War they were taking on hundreds of bombers at once....being able to fly only 2 or 3 bombers in game takes some of that randomness out of it....nothing is more frustrating then flying your bomber across the map through enemy fighters....being lucky enough to get to target and then at the last second, be plastered with an over-accurate flak burst....I know it happened, but it is a bit too easy for it to happen here. OK-- let me get my asbestos goggles on...OK- flame away!

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Brought to you by the campaign for a better Dauntless!

posted 01-31- 05:00 AM               

III/JG3, FC and others have used Spoons loadouts in our war missions for the last few weeks and the results are very encouraging. However it still takes an awfully large quantity of ammo to bring down an aircraft. I don't think anyone has really tested the combination of Condor's DM mods, the killable pilot and Spoons loadouts online. I am going to ask some of my III/JG3 squadmates to do this once we have a planepack candidate ready and see if the results are satisfactory. Spoons loadout in combination with the other mods unbalance things then lets drop them. At the moment we are guessing - let's test it first.

The real rationale for the plane pack is to present an online standard for on-line play. Therefore I am against the inclusion of any aircraft or mod that will either unbalance online play of for that matter is not used online. Conversely I think every effort should be made to include modifications that enhance online play. If you don't play on-line why would anyone be bothered with what is in the planepack?

posted 01-31- 05:32 AM               

THERE IS A SIMPLE SOLUTION!

The dm work that is going on at the moment will make things a lot more tunable, and the damage issue can be resolved, but as Yardstick pointed out, it will involve a lot of effort to make it work. I have built a set of plug in engines for planes, which use a damage model Nat and I worked up to model engines physically. It was simple to add to the Mc205, and worked well when Nat tested it in a 109. Flip the pots over, and you havea merlin, and I have a radial too. Even then, though, you have to go through and set up the power and SFC stats etc.

So, I can see Spoon's loadouts still have value. I don't think Condor has got his engine DM into everything, nor the killable pilot. Ultimately, the DM route is the right one. But, will it be ready for the planepack?

So, the solution.....

Put Spoon's loadouts into the planepack. They will be in the Prfile for the online boys. Also, as a seperate 'Offline' download from the planepack site, a set of standard loadouts in a zip-file. This would over-ride the loadouts for offline players. To get back to online standard, delete the loadouts. Simple! That way, we can all choose the setup that suits us best, and the pack remains an 'online' standard.

posted 01-31- 07:03 AM               

I really don't see the problem here though, is it so hard to download the plane pack, and then download the loadouts seperately???

On the other points, Yep, something like a prog that will switch loadouts in and out would be awsome for this kind of thing.. any takes? lol

And the Flak.. yep I'd have to agree with that being tamed down, it really is far to deadly to bombers.

Tailgunner, I see you point about them being in the parfile, but recently PP installation has removed all our folders so we'd have to go and put everything right again.. that said, what could be the best solution if it's really to hard to download the seperately would be for the installation program to give you the option of installing the loadouts in the same way we have the choice on cockpits and things now, so we atleast get the vote (we're not all from Florida) on using them or not

posted 01-31- 07:57 AM               

Nat, why do you need the planepack at all if you don't fly online? The only reason has to be for the convenience of the single download. This is not the reason the planepacks exist. They were set up to create an on-line standard and alleviate the confusion that was being created with users having different aircraft versions and loadouts.

In the absence of on-line play the rationale for the planepacks creation may have been different. There is nothing to stop you loading up any old crap into an off-line install - I know I do However, if we start from the presumption that the planepack should be balanced for off-line play then we have to add additional downloads to create the balance we need for on-line play (as we are currently doing with Spoon's loadouts). This defeats the prima fascia reason for the existence of the planepack - QED.

posted 01-31- 10:47 AM               

You're completely missing the point. There is nothing to stop you downloading all the constituents of the planepack from their respective authors and using whatever combination of mods, loadouts, FMs as you see fit. The only rationale that I can see for the inclusion of all these things in a single pack for off-line use is for convenience of the download. This is a very good reason but not why the planepacks were created.

If you want to start from the online standard (as I am sure you already do) and add any mod you want for off-line play, then that is your prerogative. However to start from a base standardised for off-line use and have to add additional downloads to reach the required on-line standard, would negate the reason for the existence of a planepack in the first place.

posted 01-31- 10:49 AM               

Anyways-- when I was not online much, I also downloaded the plane packs because it made everything neat and simple. Should people who are strictly offline be inconvenienced and have to make a hundred different downloads instead of one? Hell no-- it isn't fair, AND some people have to pay for their time online...

I wish I had Spyder's skills as far as the untilities go or I would have done this long ago. We need one of three things:

1-- New DM's for every plane pack plane (it is getting there, but isn't in every plane...and there aren't many testors for the planes that they are presently in (Yardstick-- I am glad to see you and the JG3 will be doing this-- thank you!)

2--Nat's idea of an option (like the cockpits) in the plane pack installer...d0gMa- can this be done?

3-- A utility like Chameleon...maybe we can get Spyder to make a guest appearance to help us out-- he was quite vocal and adamant that the Lanc needed serious DM help-- if he sees we are sincere and worthy (even though he has been after us for almost 2 years), he may try to help.

Past this- this debate will go on endlessly-- we are at the mercy of either the plane builders and DM modelers, and/or those who can effectively design and implement utilities.

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Brought to you by the campaign for a better Dauntless!

posted 01-31- 03:26 PM               

As a compromise, I think it's best we test the engine damange model first. If the engine damage model addresses the weak online MG, we don't need my load out fix. We would, however, need EVERY aircraft with an engine modified with this mod.

Just for the record, my loadout fix is for EVERY aircraft with a machine gun (including bombers).

Sound fair?

FLAK
Someone mentioned my Flak fix - it works excellent in both on-line and off-line play. You can now put many flak units on the ground - the effect is very realistic. No longer will a single flakpanzer take out an entire wing of aircraft. I've tested it, the FLAK still cause damange, it's just not catastrophic anymore.

Spoon

posted 01-31- 09:05 PM            

You guys are enthusiastic!

Ok,

Here are my thoughts (FWIW),

Spoon's Flak - Definitely
Beta pack: Spoon's Loadouts, DM changes and killable pilot. - then test, test, test and make a decision.

For offline play (now here is the neat idea - imho) Release a non-modified loadout parfile for insertion in the openplane folder. When you play offline, play the beta, go online in v1.5 and your loadouts are online standard - no switching options just choose beta or non-beta. I know not everyone uses the beta but most offline players seem to prefer it - I find Build 65 smoother but I also know others find problems with it.

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Spin

posted 02-01- 04:26 AM               

IMO...this is definitely two different sims without the fully released patch. Online and offline. Realism - if values used offline are the realistically proportioned values, they become Un realistic online....without the patch. Much hard work, study, and valuable free time was devoted to their inclusion, for free, and that will never be an issue ignored.

But the crossroads we have now seemed to reach is, exactly what IS the purpose of the Plane Packs? Originally, and as far as I know still, they were to render online mismatches a thing of the past. Well, that hasn't always happened, but if one sticks strictly to the Plane Pack, it never happens. So, here we go, the question being - for the convenience of the Plane Pack, what has to be given up? Answer? See all these preceding posts...we have come a long way in just a couple of years. Most of what has been suggested and discussed may now be possible. Batch files for switching par files? Bet it could be done...or switching Aircraft folders? Or the entire Media folder? The main question there is, how fancy do we want to get? Is the patch a dead issue? ( IMO - no, it isn't; but I still believe in ghosts and vampires, LOL! ).

So, we have the 'standard'; this would be offline setups. And the non-standard; online setups. Do we really want 2? ( no, we want the patch....shut up, Neal ).

I think Spin's idea, if it can be done, is the most feasible, given the time frame and the circumstances. We have our offline-only players, and our online-only, and some who do both. The main limitation to some of this is hard drive space; some of us have enough, others may be pushed. Is that fair to them? Well, again, I come to: does the Plane Pack purpose remain Online Standard, or does it here and now change to become 'Standard'? If the latter, then we go back to, if you want to play online, further downloads are required. If the former, then others have further downloads required ( like a standard loadout.ppf file pack ). But if you want to do both....woo, boy, where am I and how did I get into this? .

My position was, as the size of the online loadout file was so small, it made sense to leave it as a seperate option. But, as the PP is Online Standard, then yes, it does warrant inclusion at this time, if testing shows that online does indeed reduce the effect of the damage modelling and the pilot.

I still feel that the loadouts should be standard for online, but that they should be kept seperate from the pack. Compared to other files, it is a quick download even for regular modem connection, and installation is really quite simple - heck, even I can do it! The flak fix is a no brainer - that is a MUST inclusion.

But to paraphrase ol' Sherlock Holmes: when circumstances create unrealistic conditions from realistic values, then one must attempt unrealistic values to obtain realistic conditions. ( Hey! Did I make that up? hehe ). Sorry to have rambled; if I didn't come out clear, it's my failure at wording.

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nealg=FC=

posted 02-01- 04:25 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bulldog2:
I only play On-line and I for one need to see Spoons loadouts included.

---

oh come on! Are you seriously telling me you could download the plane Pack, but not download Spoons loadouts seperately, from the same webpage as the plane pack! give me a break. It's really not a difficult thing just to have a second download for the loadouts, damn why is this such a big issue?