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Author
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Topic: Alpha texture issue
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Sv
Pilot
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posted 01-19- 10:16 PM
   
My EIII wheels are getting better, but now I have this bug: From the left, all is well! But from the right, the wheel further away is seen through the wheel that is closer like this:  Any ideas? Or am I just using too many alpha textures? I am in D3D here with my Voodoo 5 card. Also, on another note - my glide quit working for SDOE, I now see this:  Anyone seen this? Much thanks, as always  ------------------
-Sv =FC=
WWI in SDOE! IP: Logged |
Pang
Pilot
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posted 01-20- 12:14 AM
Escher would be proud of work like that Sv. IP: Logged |
Sv
Pilot
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posted 01-20- 12:19 AM
So you can see what the texture looks like, this is mapped over the entire wheel - but the inner rim is left a solid color, it is no textured. By inner rim, I mean the one you can see from inside the wheel where the spokes attach.  So you cna see by the chanel window that only the spoke area is set to be transparent - and only where there are no spokes. This wheel looks PERFECT from all angles and in all situations except for: 1. When there is a shadow cast over the object, then it becomes semi-transparent in certain places. 2. When you view the left weel through the right weel as pictured in my first post- then the far weel shows over the close one. Keep in mind that the same thing does not occure in reverse. Both wheel's LODS are identical, only the name of the LOD file was changed. One may be rotated 180 degrees though, I can not tell for sure... Very intersting problem... IP: Logged |
Sv
Pilot
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posted 01-20- 12:19 AM
LOL Pang!!! IP: Logged |
ArgonV
Pilot
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posted 01-20- 12:20 AM
Sv, I have no clue about the above... but I have an idea: Just make a spoked alpha texture and put it on a circle object. Make the wheel have a normal texture. Then make the spoked object a child of the wheel and live with the fact that it uses 2 textures.  The reason for your SDOE broken glide is you turrned off Anti-Aliasing and SDOE doesnt like it when you do that. [This message has been edited by ArgonV (edited 01-20-2001).] IP: Logged |
Sv
Pilot
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posted 01-20- 12:32 AM
For anyone who wants to take a look:
http://www.wingswithwires/opwwi_pack/FokkerEIII/eiii.zip It is 1.5 megs and comes with the references Spndau gun as well. Another inerseting clue: In OPS, each wheel behaves differntly as well. The left wheel The one that faces you when OPS opens) looks good, but shows only the green/blue background through it's spokes- even if you should be seeing the fuselage, etc. This happens in OPS, you know what I mean? Alpha textures show through, but show no objects behind them, just background. You can not see the right wheel through the spokes of the left wheel. Anyway, the right wheel shows the left wheel through it't spokes! This is the wheel that is broken in the game. It also shows some fuselage parts, but not the wing objects. Strange. I think there are enough clues now, someone who knows what is going on here should know what's going on here [This message has been edited by Sv (edited 01-20-2001).] IP: Logged |
Sv
Pilot
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posted 01-20- 12:41 AM
Wow ArgonV, you are just full of answers - Damn!!!Turning AA back on indeed fixed my Glide- and revealed that this this wheel bug is in D3D only, it works fine in Glide So I will keep the wheel. And another plus, the wheel looks better - and the Spandau looks much better as well, and all with better frame rates! I am glad my Glide is back - THANK YOU ArgonV!!!!! IP: Logged |
ArgonV
Pilot
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posted 01-20- 12:45 AM
Hey no problemo. The more I can help the better.Sv, you might want to get someone with a D3D only card and have them download the E.III and ask them if they get the see through wheel/alpha texture problem. IP: Logged |
ArgonV
Pilot
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posted 01-20- 01:11 AM
P.S. Sv, in OPS, click on View -> Preferences and then click on the Viewport tab that comes up on the newly opened window. Look for 'Transparency' and then select 'Blended and Sorted'. This will allow you to see through alpha textures fully. (Like glass cockpits) Then restart OPS.If you leave in on 'No Transparency' one of your wheels does indeed have a alpha texture problem. You can still see through the right wheel even tho Transparecny is turned off. Please go back and check the flag numbers and the actual 3d model of the right wheel and compare it to the left wheel. Just checked out the E.III. The aircraft shadow/alpha wheel problem is still there... But gosh this plane looks sweet!  [This message has been edited by ArgonV (edited 01-20-2001).] IP: Logged |
Raider
Pilot
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posted 01-20- 09:56 AM
Damn ArgonV, you are full of answers. Thanks for the tip about OPS.Sv, thanks for posting this, can't wait to check out that gun. Glad you got your Glide back. IP: Logged |
Razer
Pilot
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posted 01-20- 01:46 PM
Ok, i think setting the flags on the texture to 83 instead of 43 it will look better. Also, looking at a transparent texture thru a nother will give you problems so i'd get used to it. It's the game.. Shouldn't the alpha texture be called alpha 1? Glide can be fixed by using the latest drivers and setting the desktop to 32bit color, also look under advanced options and make sure glide/opengl vertical sync is disabled. ------------------
Tony "Razer" Martin
"Making SDOE a dangerous Place, One plane at a time!"
FS Hangar IP: Logged |
Sv
Pilot
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posted 01-20- 04:25 PM
Razer,Why set the flag to 83? quote:
Not sure what the bug is your talking about but it you want to make the spokes solid (not be see thru) then set the flag to 83 instead of 43..
My wheel texture flag is now set to 802243. My solid parts get 802223. What is this 83 flag do? Are you suggesting that the spokes would look better if you could not see through them? Why? What looks wrong with the wheels? Or do you mean to just avoid the D3D issue pictured above? Thanks for the input Razer, it is helpful to have others looking at things Also, why do you expect problems seeing one alpha through another? Inertia did this with the Dr1a (prop blur + gun holes). All the new reflective canopies do this, you see the alpha of the blured prop through the alpha of the canopy- I have never seen any problems with this, can you explain what you mean? Thanks, this is very interesting to me as I must use many alpha textures to solve WWI modeling problems
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Bryan Russell
Pilot
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posted 01-20- 06:17 PM
SV, it may be that you can't do anything about it. Alpha ploys, both with a texture and without are drawn last and don't write to the depth buffer, that is they check the depth buffer but don't update it with their depth. You can see that the wheels look OK with the "solid" bits in the picture. Purely transparent textures and polys look OK even when they are not depth sorted properly becuase they are blended together, i.e. each poly/texture contributes to the final image. The Alpha polys are given a quick sort with other alpha polys, so what you may be seeing is just a poly sorting artifact, don't know why it looks better on Glide, except that co-planer polys seem to be handled better in SDOE's Glide renderer for some reason. Maybe the only solution is to make the wheel and tire seperate objects and only have the spokes with alpha. It will cause quite a few more polys but if this is only a problem up close some Lodding will sort that out.
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Razer
Pilot
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posted 01-20- 07:12 PM
SV, have you seen Nats IL-2? notice how the prop looks? the colored area is solid and the transparent parts is completely clear? That's what 83 will give you. the spokes will be solid but the area between the spokes will stay completely clear. Maybe not a transparent texture problem then, maybe it's a D3D problem. You tried fixing the flag on your wheels like you would a shadow in D3D if you've messed with it.. F0 was the fix i think. That might be it.. did you get glide working? ------------------
Tony "Razer" Martin
"Making SDOE a dangerous Place, One plane at a time!"
FS Hangar IP: Logged |
ArgonV
Pilot
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posted 01-20- 08:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Sv: Wow ArgonV, you are just full of answers - Damn!!!Turning AA back on indeed fixed my Glide- and revealed that this this wheel bug is in D3D only, it works fine in Glide So I will keep the wheel. And another plus, the wheel looks better - and the Spandau looks much better as well, and all with better frame rates! I am glad my Glide is back - THANK YOU ArgonV!!!!!
Razer, yes his Glide is fixed. At least thats what I get out of this post. [This message has been edited by ArgonV (edited 01-20-2001).] IP: Logged |
Sv
Pilot
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posted 01-20- 09:33 PM
Please explain more Razer, I don't quite understand. Isn't that what I have now? The spokes are solid, and in between the spokes is clear. Does the 85 flag accomplish this a different way?From what I know, the 23 flag means a non-alpha texture, there will be no alpha channel considered. If you use the 43 flag, this means that an alpha channel is expected to be used as a mask. The alpha chanel is a grey scale channel, just like the red, green, and blue channels. Where this chanel is black, it will be clear for that pixel. Where that chanel is white, it will be completely opaque and will take its color from the RGB chanels as normal. When it is grey, it is semi-transparent, it will mix the color between whatever is in the background and what color is in the RGB chanel for that pixel. How does the 83 flag fit in with all this? Much thanks! IP: Logged |
ArgonV
Pilot
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posted 01-20- 09:39 PM
Sv, maybe the 85 flag will not give you the D3D problem... I know in OPS the textures arent correctly set on the rightWheel. You can see the leftWheel through the rightWheel without OPS set to transparency. So there IS a problem here... Set it to 85 just for shits and giggles to see what happens eh? IP: Logged |
Sv
Pilot
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posted 01-20- 10:45 PM
But ArgonV,Both wheels are IDENTICAL. However, keep in mind that you are looking at a different side of the wheel in both cases. IP: Logged |
Sv
Pilot
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posted 01-20- 11:09 PM
This is what flag 83 gives me:  Interesting... Do I need an alpha channel with the texture for that flag? And I tried rotating the right wheel around to face the other way, it does not change anything... [This message has been edited by Sv (edited 01-20-2001).] IP: Logged |
Razer
Pilot
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posted 01-20- 11:14 PM
is the plha channel named Alpha 1?IP: Logged |
Sv
Pilot
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posted 01-20- 11:40 PM
No, is is called the photo-shop default of "#1", but this has never caused me any trouble with alpha textures before.Also, where does the 83 flag come from? I have never seen it bofore. I just checked out the OpenPlane doc and it seems we're dealing with either RGB (red green blue, 23) or RGBA (red green blue alpha, 43). What flags does the 83 set? quote:
Razer:
You tried fixing the flag on your wheels like you would a shadow in D3D if you've messed with it.. F0 was the fix i think. That might be it..
I think you mean the subface nesting- that needs to be set for shadows because they are on the same plane as the terrain- so you need to specify that the shadow LOD should be drawn on top. This is also used for many instrument panels since your guage lies on the same plane as the panel. If subface nesting is not set in these cases you will see flickering and/or a cross-hatch look. I don't think the subface nesting matters with my wheel, nothing is on the same surcase. Still, it seems to me that the biggest clue is that this only happens from one direction! Why? The wheel LODS are identical in every way... and this does not happen in Glide. Maybe I will try Bryan's idea of texturing the outer wheel tire part with a solid texture and the spokes with a seperate alpha textured. This won't really take more polys, just more texture memory. IP: Logged |
ArgonV
Pilot
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posted 01-20- 11:49 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ArgonV:
Sv, I have no clue about the above... but I have an idea: Just make a spoked alpha texture and put it on a circle object. Make the wheel have a normal texture. Then make the spoked object a child of the wheel and live with the fact that it uses 2 textures. The reason for your SDOE broken glide is you turrned off Anti-Aliasing and SDOE doesnt like it when you do that. [This message has been edited by ArgonV (edited 01-20-2001).]
Sv, that is kinda what I said to do all along...
IP: Logged |
Sv
Pilot
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posted 01-21- 12:03 AM
Ok, I implemented the work-around:
http://www.fightersquadron.com/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000666.html Overall, I like it! It is so neat to see through the spokes into the wheel strut tubing (it looks like wood now, but that is just temporary) and out through the other wheel's spokes! Thanks guys for the help IP: Logged |
Razer
Pilot
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posted 01-21- 12:46 AM
i say it in a factory default plane.. not sure what it does i just figured it might work if you wanted the spokes to be solid,but i've never seen the effect it had on your wheels. I'm not an OP guy i just do models.
I try to leave the hard stuff to the experts.------------------
Tony "Razer" Martin
"Making SDOE a dangerous Place, One plane at a time!"
FS Hangar IP: Logged |
Gecko
Pilot
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posted 01-24- 08:43 AM
Sv,I am not sure if it might help, but there is another flag in the LOD files that specifies the primary axis of the normal. I'm not sure what it's good for, but it just might be used for some polygon sorting algorithms and as such could help with the situation. -Gecko IP: Logged |
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