posted 11-15- 01:46 PM               

I also want to say that I hear now and then, more than before of course, "thank God Bush is president." For the poor Gore folk, etc. I just want to say that I think we would be just fine with Gore as well... America is a little bit more than one figure head. I'm sure Gore would have put us in this good of a place... only in his own way.

Now we have military court for the bad guys, a new approach for how we bring in new citizens, and a good healthy check up on those folks who have waltzed into our country and may plan to do evil.

The tide is changing... this is the turning point on the war on terrorism, victory is in sight. Now that we accept that there is an enemy and that we are at war, we will all be safer and happier for it.

posted 11-15- 02:13 PM               

I agree... I hate it when people use this war as an opportunity to take cheap shots at Gore. If Gore were President, he would be doing exactly what Bush is doing. That is, building a coalition while letting the Generals and the military conduct the war.

The correct course of action to take after the attacks was clear. Any administration, Democrat or Republican, would have taken the same course of action. The across the board Democrat support of the President since the day of the attacks is proof of that.

posted 11-15- 08:07 PM               

I hate to bust your bubble SV but the end to
this war and victory are a long way away.
We'll be lucky if we aren't spilling blood
in Afghanistan and elsewhere 10 years from
now.

As for Bush. We've been attacked, we're at war,
the stock market and the economy are in the
dumps. All on Bush's watch. Are you better
off than you were four years ago? LOL.

Another question. How are your big business
buddies going to import cheap labor since it
will be harder for forginers to get into this
country?

posted 11-15- 09:05 PM               

Kind of sick to blame Bush for the terrorist attacks...

Still, the fact that you imply that a president can/should directly control the economy shows how you approach economics... pretty much like the old USSR.

I don't think that "my" big business buddies need cheap labor to continue doing well... I think it hurts small business allot more. But I don't have a good sense of the cheap labor market because I'm in high-tech stuff... no such thing as cheap labor here. However, since the last year or so many people are making less than half what they were making before... the dot-com readjustment killed allot of the ability for contractors to over-charge because of limited supllier and killer demand.

posted 11-16- 12:56 PM               

Intellectually, it is foolhardy to blame Bush because it's happening now, or Clinton because the chickens are supposedly coming home to roost from his time. There's enough credit and blame to go around.

However, in the political arena, the Republicans did not hesitate to lay everything, large and small at Clinton's door without trying to genuinely explain things to the public. They just followed the line of "say it enough and people will believe it". Therefore, next time elections come around, I for one will return things in kind and blame Bush and the Republicans for everything that's wrong with the economy.

Politically, I'm tired of trying to fight fair and and acknowledge the pros and cons of each viewpoint only to pummelled with nothing but sound bites and spin from the other side. Did the electoral coup d'etat of last Nov/Dec leave a bad taste in my mouth? You bet!

------------------
Be seeing you,
3dp
Visit RAF Harkness!

posted 11-16- 01:35 PM            

Rule 4. To show singular possession with proper nouns ending in s or an s sound, you have the option of dropping the s that would normally follow the apostrophe.

Example of singular possession Texas' OR Texas’s

The dictionary definition of hypocrite is; "a person who pretends to be what he is not; one who pretends to be better than he is, or to be pious, virtuous, etc. without really being so."

When you insult another's choice, path, etc. and then complain that someone else has done the same to you, you ARE a hypocrite. It's not a complimentary term, it's not something to aspire to.

posted 11-16- 01:43 PM            

"If this economy is the dumps, then Bush deserves high praise... not bad times for "the dumps." "

Reality says:

" 11/16/2001 - Updated 10:07 AM ET

Industrial production withers in October

From wire reports

Related stories

Consumer price index drops 0.3% in October.



WASHINGTON — Industrial productivity plunged in October for the 13th month in a row, the longest string of declines in manufacturing activity since the Great Depression.

The Federal Reserve reported Friday that output at the nation's factories, utilities and mines plummeted 1.1% last month, on top of a big 1% decline in September.

The 13-month stretch of declining activity marked the longest period of falling industrial output since a 15-month stretch that ended in July 1932.

The portion of production capacity put to use by industries in October slid to 74.8%, the lowest since June 1983, from 75.7% in September. Wall Street economists surveyed by Reuters had expected October production to fall 0.9% and for the capacity utilization rate to drop to to 74.7%.

The nation's manufacturing sector has been hardest hit by the more than yearlong economic slump and Sept. 11 terror attacks dealt the industry another severe blow.

To cope with the fallout, companies have sharply cut back production, trimmed hours and let go of workers. Friday's report suggest that the battered manufacturing sector sunk deeper into recession last month."

HMMM...what 'good times' are you living in? Better fucking wake up and smell the coffee dumbass. Yeah, he really deserves high praise alright....LOL

posted 11-16- 05:00 PM               

"If terrorism gets worse and worse to the point where millions of Americans/English are dying each year... then I bet you might be for rounding up ALL Muslims for into internment camps for example... or getting them out of the country."

We are not at war with people of Islamic faith. You must be aware of this, nevertheless you seem, forgive me if I'm wrong, to fancy the idea that we are or that we will be.

"There is no such thing as a world without war. All we can hope for is less violence and death in war... and less of it. But a life without war must be also a life with no reasons for living."

Life without war isn't worth living?

"What is the dream of the pacifist? It is like heaven for the Christians, it can not be defined in Earthly terms... because it can not exist on Earth. So for the pacifist to try and bring this place to Earth, is impossible and it is wrong."

LMAO! Sv, what would make you say such disturbing and hopeless things? It's wrong to bring peace to fruition? Even Scientologist hope for a world of peace. So for Christians that whole peace on earth and good will to men thing has become passe?

"Hehehe, if we were targeting civilians I am quite sure you would be dead now you fucking bastard. I hope we get to targeting civilians soon... at least before any Americans die. One of the Taliban leaders has said that the Taliban will have "victory or death." They said it folks, and our answer BETTER be DEATH!!!"

posted 11-16- 05:01 PM               

Following the longest growth... this is the typical ups and downs of a free market economy. We are now in what is called an "adjustment" for the major over-hype and over-valuation of the market. The good news here is that traditional strong business that were ignored in favor of sexy high-tech endevors are now getting some much needed and well deserved attention. But I'm sure wouldn't understand, being a dumb fuck and all. Keeping reading the news though, it is a start.

-Mr. Business

posted 11-16- 05:13 PM               

In context I stand 100% behind eall those quotes... and am quite proud to see them quoted here.

I think allot of the shock you may feel when reading these quotes is because you are not readng deep into them... as well you might in a flame wars forum anyway - but they are based on a very strong and positive view of life that I have.

I really would be amazed if you were more positive than me, because my own personal faith is found in positive thought.

It would just take many words and allot of ideas to express my views correctly... the key though is that the things that I said that you find negative, I find criticaly positive.

I accept man for what he is, and I love what we are... and I embrace that which gives us dignity.

Fighting for what you believe in rather than giving in and living in fear and shame is one of the most telling things of the human spirit. And the quotes around those that you have posted here say things important as well to add context... that I am saddened by war as much as any dignified man, but I understand that this is part of the paradox that defines us. I have learned that world peace would only be possible if there wasone man on Earth... or if all men became insects like ants.

Beause our views and beliefs, what we live for, who we are... the very reason why we hate to see innocents die in war... all these things make us who we are. We can not live without having views and passions.

It is like trying to teach a tiger to give up the gazelle and become a vegaterian. You may do this, but you have killed the tiger anyway... because the tiger is nothing more than a gazelle hunter.

I love the tiger, and he is full of dignity.

And my most positive statement to end the posts where you got your content... I said that I believe we will find a working replacement for war... we will ALWAYS have war, but someday no one will die from it...

posted 11-16- 09:37 PM               

"I think allot of the shock you may feel when reading these quotes is because you are not
readng deep into them... as well you might in a flame wars forum anyway - but they are based on a very strong and positive view of life that I have."

I'm not shocked. Many people would agree with much of what you say.

"Fighting for what you believe in rather than giving in and living in fear and shame is one of the most telling things of the human spirit."

This thinking hardly falls in line with, "I hope we get to targeting civilians soon... at least before any Americans die."

"…we will ALWAYS have war, but someday no one will die from it... "

That's a positive thought, but no war at all is just as, if not more, imaginable to me.
Sv, I can't convince you that putting Muslims into internment camps wouldn't be "positive thinking." That depends on your perception. I'm sure Nazis thought positive about many things they did and said. Perhaps their personal "commandment book" had even fewer requirements.

[This message has been edited by casualty26ac (edited 11-16-2001).]

posted 11-16- 10:22 PM               

So SV, are you between 17 and 34. If you are,
when are you joining up? This would be an
excellent opportunity for you to fight for
what you believe in.

posted 11-17- 07:47 AM               

I hope the enemy does not make that much progress... there is no excuse for it... and based on what I see Bush and the rest of the country doing, I don't think we will need to arm the citizens. Do you think or enemy is that strong?

Imagine if all the great men before us had your attitude Smokey, YOU would probably be wearing a burka right now.

So when you watch Sparticus, do you keep hoping that they won't fight?

I really don't know what your plan is... to just let the enemy have what they want? I don't see a clear total vision of the world coming from you guys... just alot of "holyier than thouh" kind of shit. You are all such fucking great joes... in fact if you were around we could saved millions of Americans in WW2. It is SO simple!!!

I'm the only one hear willing to look at the world and man as a whole. You can only fight one sentance at a time. What is yuour world vision with no strife? How will it work? You all have the solution to world peace?

No, you don't need that... it is enough for you to have general notions of what you kinda like and what you hate. You treat the issues of life like they are flavors of ice creame, disliking some, loving others, and indiferent to most that you have not tried.

posted 11-17- 07:53 AM               

"Hahah Sv, I bet if our country is forced into a serious war were we have to defend our very existance as a free people, you would be one of those suckers who sign up to fight like all those idiots during WW2."

At least I know who's side you are really on Smokey.

posted 11-17- 07:55 AM               

You've made a lot of statements around here
about fighting for what you believe in. There
is no better time than now. Just saw a clip
on Fox News about how they may need tunnel
rats for quite some time yet to dig Al Queda
and the taliban out of those caves.

Just in case you're interested I've all ready
contacted a recruiter and tried to get back
in. They told me I was too old. If I was young
enough I would go in a minute.

posted 11-17- 08:34 AM               

Smokey, what ever gave you the idea that we don't have enough qualified professioanl soldiers now??? Are you telling me that we are losing the fight?!?!?

And if you want to get all personal and honest and stuff, I can tell you three things you won't like. I am 29, I have pretty bad asthma (mainly in the cool air) - and if I did have a chance to get in I'm pretty sure they would want me doing something with information technology since that is my skill.

However, if it comes to where I can help and I am needed, I WILL be there. Even my wife who is usually to practical to want me to do something like that said I could go if it comes to that.

You are merely using this odd excersise to try and get something on me - but it really makes no sense at all. We are not even losing men yet!!!! Exactly what would they do with some guy with no militray experience who is only there to prove that he would fight if the need be?

I have been told my military folk that it is bad form to want to join up just to prove something... you really should want to dedicate your life to it. I'm not about to insult the real military guys by throughing myself on them as if they need me now.

Plus, who are you kidding? I'm the one here who talks about glorifying war the most... it would be dream for me to take charge of a battle and command a great victory! But only if it is what we have to do... the glorification of war does server an honest need for good people. In fact, it is no different than glorifying the fallen firemen and policement on sept. 11th. We do it to show great thanks and gratitude to those who had to do what they must do to maintain the great world we live in.

Glory is not for the ones being glorified, it is for those who do the glorifying... so that we may revel in the greatness and goodness of man.

casualty26ac said above that my "positive vision" credo was weak and had little rules. But anything less is a micro-view of the world. casualty26ac believes that there is a definite right and a definite wrong, in essence there is one true religion and one true culture... one true race. And it just happens, as luck has it, to be his!

I say all people can only be true to themsleves and their vision of the world. There will NEVER be one true way to live. So if you deny my credo, then you must grant that you are the center of the world and that all others are wrong...

It is very good to believe that you are right. You must be right and just. But at a macro level, when we are talking about all man and all the world, you must accept that the best man can do is live true to his ideals and fight for them to the end.

The perpetuation of strife, physicaly or mentaly.

But this still leaves room for the many bad men we have... they know what is right and wrong, and they do wrong for personal gain. This happens often, but is very much a minority. Even Hitler had a vision he was true to... an awfull and evil vision by our world view, but never the less it was a vision for what he thought would be a better future.

So it is good he fights for this, and good that we fight against it, and ultimately good that WE win. But the ultimate never-known good will always win because good is positive and evil is weak, even at the macro level. But this level is hidden from out minds because it is beyond our personal world view. It must be this way, because that defines the individual, the man.

To ask all men to give up their differences and agre on one way to live... this is taking the gazelle away from the tiger. Man is about ideals and a world vision. There is no true Earthly vision... it is all in our minds... all of man is in his mind, this IS man. If you take away our mind, our individuality - and leave only our animal part to only worry about food and shelter, we are tigers with no gazelles- we are no longer men.

So even if we have every lasting peace, we will only have it at the cost of killing man forever.

posted 11-17- 08:51 AM               

I will not ridicule a person who would be
disqualified from military service because
of a health problem. Suffice it to say that
SV, you do a lot of talking about fighting
a war. My only point is fighting a war is
a lot easier to talk about than it is to do.
As I have said before, you are good with words.
When it's time to fight words don't
count very much.

posted 11-17- 10:12 AM               

I don't expect a war on the scale you are talking about... I don't understand why you think that is the case. In WW2 the sides were much more even... here we clearly have a huge advantage.

I do think we need to be careful of getting caught up in another Vietnam... but I think all involved understand this now... we learned from that.

Don't you think we are making good progress at least? We are flighting cleverly... look what we have done with no real casualties on our side. Maybe we will have setbacks in the future... but it seems like right now that the Taliban were mostly smoke and mirrors.

And those like McCain who said we had to send in full scale ground troups... I think they did not expect how far things would go so fast with this approach.

I'm not saying that we knew it would for sure... and things could have turned out differently... but wasn't it worth the chance we gave it?

I am a big fan of long term air strikes. People have made the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden into super-powerful villians... may dad does this. I think the American people give them WAY too much credit... and we are seeing that now. They can hide in the caves if they want.. someday they will tire and desolve. We could set up camp of there and have live bombing practice for decades... and we lose no one. Time is on our side, we are not going away, but I don't think that radical islam/terrorism has such a life span.

I predict we have Bin Laden by Christmas... just a guess, we'll see. I also don't think we will go after Iraq and such unless they ask for it.

posted 11-17- 10:23 AM               

If Bush keeps his word about getting all
terrorists and the nations that harbor them
we will almost certainly have to fight Iraq.
This may lead to fighting some other Islamic
countries also. Yes, I think we are making
good progress for the amount of time we've
been at it. The whole thing hinges on how
far we are going to go. Seems to me that if
we leave any terrorists operation that amounts
to a shit, our country and our freedoms will
be in danger. This is what we are fighting
against.

posted 11-17- 01:04 PM               

quote:

---

Being a positive thinker doesn't make you wrong or right. If that's the only "commandment" in your bible you have all the questions answered.

---

posted 11-17- 02:15 PM               

This is the part that I meant. This part especially, "And it just happens, as luck has it, to be his!"

posted 11-17- 09:36 PM               

quote:

---

Being a positive thinker doesn't make you wrong or right. If that's the only "commandment" in your bible you have all the questions answered.

---

This to me implies that one should have many commandments they follow in their world view, and you must be "right" or "wrong" compared to other's views. To me this only applies at the personal level, not the macro level of all mankind and all entire worlds.

It seems that you are condeming my philosophy saying that it is weak because it is not based on accepting that humans all aspire to the same world vision. This leaves me to believe that you think there one can find the true single vision... they one can tell ultimate truth from ultimate falisy. And if you can, then your views must be the correct views, or why would you have come to them?

So you think certain things are good and certain things are bad... and you can assertain them. And further more there are people who believe the opposite that you believe, and you call them "bad" or "evil."

You have here set up an expectation that the individual can know the ultimate truth about the macro world of man. But all you can really know is your own personal world, and what is right and wrong in that world.

Would you say that you are right and Hitler was wrong? Are you more or less evil than Hitler?

If you say that you know that ultimatly you are good and Hitler is evil than you have just accepted that you have a supperior culture or religion than he.

But while one man can know what is right and wrong in his own world vision, he can never know what is right or wrong in his fellow man's world.

That is why my philosophy replaces right and wrong with positive and negative. Positive energy is most clearly expressed with the action of dignity... positive ideas dignify... positive ideas of man dignify man, and positive works by men have their own dignity.

Negative energy mocks and isults... negative ideas shame man , and negative works by men have a profound fraility.

The positive and negative are defined above the personal level... unlike right and wrong which only make sense in the individual's world-view.

I think that right and wrong are very important for each person... and they define the individual. But if you are to look for real meanings in life beyond yourself, you must look beyond the individual and boyond the one day. If you spend allot of time here, you will see that it is a very real world, as real as each of our own worlds that our individial minds creates for us.

This is the world where you can make sense of war and can see the true dignity of man. This is the place where the individual has melted away... so what seems so tragic to you seems like happy nature instead. Like when the tiger catches and eats the gazelle, nature does not suffer for it. Rather nature is made of it.

Such a simple example compared to the beautiful complexity of man... each of our own individual worlds contains inside of it the model of the gazelle and the tiger and so much more. In each of our minds is a world just slightly more amazing than what we call the "entire universe."

And this can not be revealed to your individual self after you die... you can only see it in your lifetime. You will never be born again, but your one lifetime is timless... but it is the only thing your individual self has... because if you had more than you would no longer be an individual, would you?

posted 11-18- 01:53 AM               

Once again, I never said anything of the sort. You're projecting. You said thinking positive was your "one commandment," and I said you have it all answered then. However, I didn't say all humans "aspire to the same world vision." Your philosophy does appear adaptable though. Case in point:

"I won't give up without a fight... the terrorists will not take my world away... if I have to suffer myself, or cause other innocents to suffer by sending them to war or internment camps... I will do whatever I need to do to make sure that my world lives and my ideas have a change to flurish... even if I have to lower my ideals to earn those ideals again."
---------------------------------------------
"It is very good to believe that you are right. You must be right and just. But at a macro level, when we are talking about all man and all the world, you must accept that the best man can do is live true to his ideals and fight for them to the end."
---------------------------------------------

If you don't see the contradiction between your two posts, I can say no more.

"But while one man can know what is right and wrong in his own world vision, he can never know what is right or wrong in his fellow man's world.
---------------------------------------------
"... but I hate to break the news... some people ARE bad and deserver to be rounded up."
---------------------------------------------

You've certainly decided YOU know the difference between right and wrong here-not just for you, but for your "fellow man." It makes the long post you make above seem hypocritical.

I can't prove universal right and wrong. However, most any civilized society would agree that just as it is always wrong, no matter the culture, race, or religion, to rape, that it is also always wrong to cause innocents to suffer.

posted 11-18- 09:40 AM               

But the other quotes you took explain my philosphy of man and the world... the true meaning of life. I believe that if you understand this higher order and meaning, then you will know who man is better, and therefore who you are better. This means allot... it shows you how to live your life and makes you happy and usefull, and that helps make the world shine.

posted 11-18- 10:03 AM               

Many times you will see a man with a very different view of the world. You will catch him being a hypocrite all the time, but in reality, no man is a hipocrite except for the very few weak men I mentioned abve... the ones that do things for their own personal gain - a petty minority of man.

In your world you would be correct, he is a hypocrite! But you a judging him in the court of your world views! You have differnt base assumptions about life and the meaning of things. To this man, in his world vision, he is the opposite of hypocritical! This is a great war to try and illustrate my philosophy.

To me, there is no such thing as hyposcrisy is not a bad thing. Rather, accusing someone of hypocrasy is the worst thing of all... because there you try to impose your world-view on others. It is very good to try every second of your life to explain and argue your world view and every man has a deep inner longing to have other's know and understand his world view, but also try to get other's to adhere to it. This is great!

But one must always acknowledge the other's separate and distinct world-view. Without this preconcieved notion, when the two world collides, there will be very little positive reaction between them.

When people argue - or even talk, there are two worlds colliding. See, man alone is not man! Only when man talks with other men does the "greater" man come alive! A man completly hidden away all his life is NOT part of the greater man.

Poetry is one man's world view colliding with his own idea of what the collective man's world is... and overlap. This is why poetry so much identifies the individual... most art is just an expression of the individual world-view in contrast to the percieved macro-world view of all his fellow men.

We are truly never alone, nor is the individual issolated. At the higher spirit of man his individuality melts away... his individuality is KEY to his earthly life, and defines his person... but he is more.

The scary fact is that you ARE your worse enemy and your greatest hero! You ARE them... and everything you do matters as much as everything they did - or will do. It is scary to think that you are Bin Laden, and you are Hitler, and you are Tesla.

And so you can almost see the beauty of strife... when you fight what you think is eveil. It really is an internal strugle you have with yourself. Everyone must understand this... especially the super-critical man. He feels it ever second... and all men feel it inside often... the battle of "who we are."

Only if we did not struggle so would we cease to exsists... the pacifists view... is death to all this... no more inner struggle - no more growing, and we are the growing, not the destination.

So you see I don't want to believe the things I believe in, they are FORCED on my by my constant thinking about the whole world, of all men, and of the meaning of my individual life.

Sometimes you can learn things... and have to accept them until you can understand that maybe it could be a different way. Certain things that I know in my world-vision force me to certain conclusions. And all together my world-vision is know as my "system of relations."