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| Author | Topic: corporate welfare |
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Smokey Pilot |
posted 09-19- 04:26 PM
   
Well here we go. Our politicians, led by Bush, are getting ready to give some of our taxpayer money to the airlines to help make up for some of their losses. The last figure I heard was 17.5 billion. Some of this is probably justified. But what is next? We all ready have Boeing lining up with hat It wouldn't be so bad except the CEO's of IP: Logged |
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Psi Pilot |
posted 09-19- 07:57 PM
And another thing that pisses off a guy is that these corporations constantly duck the tax laws and end up spending less and less in corporate taxes every year. Maybe it pays to save what money you DON'T pay in taxes and get good tax attorneys… P IP: Logged |
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3dp Pilot |
posted 09-19- 08:46 PM
Mention a CEO and you get a response from me! It's one of my biggest political issues. Most of these bastards (US big corporation CEOs) make on the order of 200x (much more possibly) what their average employees make, while those in Europe (last time I checked) made about 30x and those in Japan about 25x. It is nothing short of obscene and a national disgrace when there are so many regular folks struggling to make ends meat. Now to have the SOBs going hat in hand to the government, especially, as far as I've been able to ascertain, it was their resistance which always killed any significant security reform, is sickening. Add to it that they are effectively blackmailing us by saying "Bail us out or the ecomony suffers". Unfortunately, we're in the Welfare reform Catch 22. You don't want to revoke welfare benefits too readily for fear of hurting the innocent children. Same here, you want to help the poor employees and the economy, not the poorly run company they have the misfortune to work for. I'll make them a deal (pseudo-Socialist that I am), I say give them the money in return for legislation which limits what upper management can make to no more than (let's be generous and DOUBLE the European rate) 60x the wage of their average employee, and no getting around it with all that stock option crap! I kid you not (I said this was my issue!), when these guys do badly and cost stock holders money and employees jobs, they get severance packages equal to more than I will make in my lifetime. When one of the creeps gets on TV and says he is not taking any pay for the next year so the firm can retain staff, then I'll have some respect. As it is, I want to know what percentage of our tax money will go right into the CEOs' pockets. A hell of a lot if history is anything to go by. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! ------------------ [This message has been edited by 3dp (edited 09-19-2001).] IP: Logged |
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Spanky the Mad Dog Pilot |
posted 09-19- 10:25 PM
LOL, wow that is a crazy idea. I propose that if they are bailed out they get NOTHING at all. I mean whos fault is it that they arn't making money? Arn't they supposed to be running the company? But I don't it, I thought the stock holders had some power? I thought they made money from dividends off the stock and you would think those dividends would be higher if the CEOs wern't making crazy amounts of money. ALso, its no suprise to see goverment giving a hand out to big business. Big business funds the elections. Thats a big problem I propose a total ban on corperate donations. I would rather see any candadits getting public money to run with. Maybe I'm just looney. IP: Logged |
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Psi Pilot |
posted 09-19- 11:03 PM
The last company I worked for (won't mention names for fear of a suit) was high-tech and it fell on hard times. Well the upper managers and officials did their part for the conservation of employees and took a 10% pay cut. Well that was all well and good but for us lower supervisors and regular employees we were FORSED to take a 40-50% pay cut, you know what I told them! Another thing I saw that the airlines want is blanket coverage so they don't get sued for the use of their airplanes in the attack. This is not going to send a good message to the American people or the world! This to me just shows that the priorities (money) are the priorities that will cost us what we think we still possess, honor... IP: Logged |
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3dp Pilot |
posted 09-19- 11:10 PM
I agree about banning corporate donations. Apparently, according to some recent reading I've done, the crux of the problem is that the courts have defined donating to candidates as free speech, fine, however, they also define corporations as equivalent to individuals for this purpose. This becomes ridiculous when you ask the question, "Does each corporation get an actual vote like all citizens do?". Obviously not, yet they can drive the candidates with obscene amounts of money. Very simple and watered down, but food for thought. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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3dp Pilot |
posted 09-20- 10:59 PM
Just a little footnote for those interested. Right after writing my manifesto (see above) last night, I went up and caught Garick Utley on CNN reporting that the CEOs of the small air carriers are taking pay cuts to keep their companies going and their people employed. None of the majors are. I will now go write my congressmen and tell them I want one hell of a lot of strings attached to the bail out money. My tax dollars going to a CEOs pockets would be the ultimate insult. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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Spanky the Mad Dog Pilot |
posted 09-20- 11:02 PM
So is this bailout just a huge grant? Is there any repayment in the future? Even a token repayment of a percentage? There certainly should be anyways. IP: Logged |
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Sv JAG |
posted 09-20- 11:24 PM
Heheh, I don't think CEO's ask for raises when their company is being bailed out. Having to bail out businesses that are critical to our country's infrastructure is part of the price we have to pay to keep privitization. Remember, what happened this last week is the main reason the government wanted to run the airlines. I would much rather have to bail out private enterprise in times of national crisis than have a government run air system... imagine what that would be like. Still, I am sure there are those very much in favor of the government running the airline industry... valid points can be made on both sides I think. IP: Logged |
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Jerry Pilot |
posted 09-21- 02:22 AM
Someone on the radio suggested that instead of a cash welfare bailout, the government purchase open ended advance tickets from the airlines. With all the gov't employees that fly the tickets will get used up eventually. So instead of a hand-out it becomes a payment in advance for services rendered. The airlines get their money and the government (tax payer) gets something in return which reduces future expenditures dollar for dollar. Sounds good to me. What do you think? IP: Logged |
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Sv JAG |
posted 09-21- 08:04 AM
That will make tickets more expensive for the public in the future. Consider money to airlines as disaster recovery money... this was a disaster. You can't hold the airlines accountable for such acts of war any more than you can blame a home owner for earth quake damage. Sure the airlines should spend much more effort on security... but isn't security our nation's job at some level? After all, the police keep the thieves out of retail stores... why shouldn't the government keep the terrorists out of the airports? This is one area where I am really for government ownership... let the airlines stay private, but make the security government controlled. IP: Logged |
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Spanky the Mad Dog Pilot |
posted 09-21- 09:28 AM
From what it sounds like the airlines were almost broke before all of this, it sounds like they were right on the edge and this really pushed it over. So yes they might have to raise prices. or cut costs. Really what else can they do? This bailout money will only last so long before they need more. It would be like a family living on the edge of their income. Using one credit card to pay off the other one and such. Then the primary worker in the family getting sick for a week and not getting paid that week. Shouldn't they also change their budget a bit so they arn't so close to the edge? IP: Logged |
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Sv JAG |
posted 09-21- 10:11 AM
Yea... this is a case of over-competition. It happens sometimes... like back when the railroads went bust- too many small companies and one very ineffeciant system. Of course some fear the solution more than the problem... merging companies into larger organized corporations. This has been the power of our economy and the source of American wealth... but it can go to far as well of course... IP: Logged |
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Jerry Pilot |
posted 09-21- 06:36 PM
Well, most other countries have "one" national airlines (British Airways, Luftansa, Air France, etc.) which dominates and perhaps a few regional ones. IMO a shakeout in the US is called for. One or two big boys and some regionals. Also, open the door for more international airlines to fly some major domestic US routes to keep things competitive. Prices will have to come up regardless. Airlines now have to fly close to 100% occupancy to make money. This can't be counted on all the time. A 5 or 10% drop in passengers and they're bankrupt. IP: Logged |
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3dp Pilot |
posted 09-21- 10:26 PM
My points about CEO pay was not that they're looking for raises when the company's being bailed out, it's that they make a disgusting amount of money to start with. If they didn't, the companies themselves might be able to hold on considerably longer before starting layoffs. Comparable CEOs in other nations don't even come close to making what they do. Put simply, something is very, very wrong here and it has been for over a decade since it first became an issue to me, not just since 11 September 2001. I'm also sorry to say that, unbelievably, it just continues to get worse. ------------------ [This message has been edited by 3dp (edited 09-21-2001).] IP: Logged |
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