posted 06-18- 10:27 PM               

"My response is this. What the heck is wrong with having 10 aircraft? Do we actually need 200 planes? Do we actually need 11? "

You've answered your own question, now shut up, leave us alone and go and play SDOE with the bog standard setup, it seesm that you'll enjoy that.

"Why not perfect the original 10 aircraft instead of producing 30 imperfect planes?"

Read the message board more often and you'll already know that we're doing just that, it's called the DIME project, shame though because this wont help you, since 1. You only want the standard 10 aircraft, and 2. the updated standard aircraft will be in a plane pack, which you don't want.
IF you don't want more than 10 aircaft the answer is very simple... need I say more?

"I would respond by saying that it is the new patch features that is making it very, very difficult for new players to get involved with the game thus they CAN'T fly the number of of flyable aircraft in the game. Grab a dictionary and look up oxymoron. I personaly know 7 guys who have uninstalled SDOE for this very reason."

This is a shame, that people can't wait for a game to be improved by a small team that AREN'T getting paid for doing it! I'd rather you just shut your face and said "thanks"

"He states,"This is a community - not a corporation."
This couldn't be further from the truth. What SDOE has become is a community RUN by a corporation. The few have decided what this game should become for the many. No one can play this game on line now unless they bow to the computer Gods who sit upon the SDOE throne and guide the evolution of the game."

You have 3 choices here, you play the game "out of the box", you decide to upgrade with things we've done FOR FREE, or, you join in and help make changes with us, but, what you don't fucking do it bitch about things we've added to SDOE for FREE and then tell me I shouldn't be doing that because it's not what you like!!! Again, I'd rather you just shut the fuck up and said "thanks"

"My response to this is the easiest one. If there aren't enough people to run the show, then why was the show started? You don't buy a farm if you have no seed. The term 'getting in over your head' may apply."

You sad shit shut up and leave already.

Look, I wasn't offended or anything by your original leaving message, it's kinda annoying to hear bitching about the game, but then your weren't offensive to start with, and I felt sorry that things are rarther complicated, and hope we improve this in the future.. that was then, this is now, in the NOW you've pissed me off with your thickheadedness, your lack of thought or even to see the blatantly obvious answers to your own statements, what are you? 10 years old with a problem in the logical thought department?? This is all very simple, we build addons, you use them or your don't, you help with feedback on problems or you don't, you like them or you don't, but through all of this you have a choice. You my man, are a simplton, we work our nuts off to add new stuff for whiners like you?? Thats the only question you should be asking, why the hell should we spend our good time providing new things for you to use and then bitch about!? You should be fucking paying us the way you go on, damn. Unfortunately we don't have control over who uses what we provide.. oh, but isn't that the point? You can decide.. can't you?

If it's to hard for yout tiny mind, and it's just to much trouble, then don't use it. Damn I hate sounding elitist, but fuck me if you haven't pissed me off. If you can't help in any way whatsoever, then just shut up, helping can be anything from building to just providing helpful feedback, do you ever wonder why your attitude and dumbass comments above ever get flamed so badly?? probably not.. but here it comes, if you don't like it, change it, help to change it, or get the fuck out.

Werner ole buddy.. push this to Flame Wars any time you like.

PS, thought I better mention, the reason I'm so pissed and offended by your post is that I'm one of the people working to improve this game anyway I can, and your post shows the gratitude we get from your kind, wether aimed at Da Jug or anyone else, when you have a go at the work in general I and others have done here.. damn right I'll be offended.
~Nat~
Check the sig

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=V67th= "Naturlich"


"SDOE... What and where would you like to fly today?"
http://members.nbci.com/naturlich/index.htm

[This message has been edited by Nat (edited 06-18-2001).]

posted 06-18- 10:33 PM               

Calm down and back way from the keyboard...

I assure you there are very few "elitists" involved in the FS community. FSSDOE has evolved in several directions at the same time... The last contest futher complicated the picture by flooding the community with a few "near complete" aircraft...

Ol' Jug has taken it upon himself to address some of the glaring deficiencies in one aspect or another of the original 10 aircraft as well as the plethera of user ones. (actually there are about a half dozen people doing this, but Jug was named specifically in the post so I reference him) ...

The task of taking an aircraft from startto-finish in FS is a daunting one. The exspectations of a single person to do this is near impossible.

but back to the subject of the post...

FS in its original state was a "good" and "fun" simulation. But for the many people who waited patiently for it's "hard-core" attributes were left empty upon its arival. Enter Openplane and some dedicated programers and suddenly planes stated to be born. (yeah I know I wandering again... sue me.)

In a nut shell.... the great majority of this community enjoy:

1.) The friendly and close-nit community and a willingness to bend over backward to assist new users.
2.) The challenge of making and using finely crafted user models and nurse them along until they shine the glow of a fully finished example.
3.) The desire to have a respectively detailed flight and damage model.

What the community doesn't like is for a newbie to come storming in making demands stamping his feet and berating the vast amounts of time, effort and research many have given to this simulation.

I've read your posts and I understand you're having difficulties. Your fustration is not the communities fault... however, a solution will not be gained by throwing a tantrum.

I suggest you calm down... take a deep breath and re-determine how involved you wish to be in this simulation. You can stick with the default 10 planes... maybe find a few others who are either intimidated by the whole "online standards" process or enjoy the simplicity of the original game. OR you can ride the waves... allow us the work with you to solve your issues and benefit along with the rest of the community.

posted 06-19- 12:03 AM               

Nat you are not the target of my anger and I am suprised you would think that you were. I have spent some time working in the gold mines of SDOE and think that anyone that contributes to this game deserves better than that first post.

posted 06-19- 12:15 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Braveheart:
You people need to realize that there is a vast number of people out here who just want to sit down in front of their computers for a little while each week and have a bit of fun flying around the skys of Europe 50 years ago.
Unfortunately SDOE has become an elitist,"old boys club" who feel they OWN the game and are somehow compelled to continualy improve a game that was vastly enjoyable and easy to play in the first place.
Congratulations boys. Your only accompishment has been to ruin this game for the 75% of us who are not computer literate on your level.
Please don't get involed in the next flight sim I buy. I already wasted enough money getting Fighter Squadron.

---

A word from one of the old guard here...

I have been here a while--- seen some come, seen some go, seen many come back! SDOE has never been everyone's favorite sim-- it hasn't won any awards that i know of....and it is 3 years old.

We all like to sit in front of the computer and fly these planes BH.....but the same 10 tend to get a bit boring after a while-- admit it. I am appreciative of the fact that I can jump into a WWI crate, or a tank (Thanks Harman!) or pretty much any PTO or ETO plane available Yes- some of the planes are not finished, yes there is a little work that needs to be done here and there--- but the quality of these add-ons kicks the shit out of games like CFS where there are 15 different versions of the same plane and they are nowhere near this quality...

Calling us an elitest "old boys club" shows me your frustration--- I take offense to this comment nonetheless. There are many of us "old boys" who have patiently taken many collective hours of time bringing new people up to speed--- the process has become a bit more complicated-- but does that mean we should give up and start all over again. Well-- you can crawl back into your mother's womb if you'd like-- but don't you DARE take my Corsair or Beaufighter away with you--- they represent a lot of hard (and apparently thankless) work.

SDOE is going through some growing pains at present-- but considering it's age and the fact that there are so many still playing it-- I think that amounts to something. The DIME project will help-- but 10 planes at a time will take a while--- the thing we need most in this community is patience. I have seen and tested some of the things being worked on-- and despite the fact that it seems once again that our work is damned before it has become fully realized--- I think the community will enjoy what I get to play with now.

I have seen a few of you post on problems you have been having-- and I have never seen one case where somewone's question was not answered by two or three people. We are willing to help out any way we can...and at some point in the not too distant future- things will once again be easy to install....but until that time-- you can either ask for help or stamp your feet and bitch and moan. I hate to see someone having trouble and am glad to help--- but that does not give someone the right to give ultimatums about how things should be run.....OPS once tried to work on keeping the game from being as unorganized as it is currently-- and they basically got pissed on for it--- it is ironic that now once again, many are calling for a group to take on those same responsibilities and get things back in shape. I will be the last person to sign up for that kind of grief.....

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Brought to you by the campaign for a better Dauntless!

posted 06-19- 12:46 AM               

I'm not professionally trained in tech support, I'm not professionally trained in anything at all to do with computers, I just happen to have an aptitude. The rest is enthusiasm and a desire to do a good job and a good turn for my fellow simmers. When I get vitriol in return, well you figure it out. I'm not saying "I bust my ass for you so dammit be grateful", but being that I care for my fellow simmers I'm going to suggest something to you Braveheart. Obviously with a sim like SDOE that isn't supported by the developer or publisher anymore, that doesn't have companies making third party add ons for it (thus having trained tech support), I really recommend that you find your historical immersion elsewhere. May I recommend CFS? I believe Abacus makes add ons for the game. The quality isn't as good as what you'll get here, but if the installation is easier than hey, you're laughin', right?

*sigh*

Werner

posted 06-19- 07:35 AM               

I disagree with that comment, that CFS has poorly made Add-On planes. To keep it simple I offer this link to some of the BEST textured and tweaked CFS aircraft which, BTW, I find are as much fun to fly as any I 've flow so far in FS - different a bit from FS, maybe not as REAL or whatever, but every bit as much fun and they look great! I think so anyway: http://knifemaker.free.fr/cadre1.htm

Cause that's what I've observed in the FS (and other brands of) online Combat flight sim games, a lack of fun going on. And I mean FUN, not acting the part. When I think of the online flying games I've had the most fun in, I fail to recall seeing a single 'gg'. We were to busy having fun to bother with typing stuff like that and therefore had no reason to try and convince ourselves, or others, that we were actually having fun. We typed comments expressing jokes, poking harmlessly at each other, bantered about and stuff like that - whether we knew each other already or were new comers it didn't matter.
I think 'gg' comes too easy and quickly and is used when there's nothing else to say. Personally, I use it when I'm not really having fun.

When I first joined an online FS game a week ago, my impression was that I was being 'tolerated'.

Then, along came Pye - now THERE's someone who has fun with all of this. I mean, who else but someone who's having fun, AND IS WILLING TO SHARE THAT FUN, would give a newbie a guided tour of the landscape while teaching him how to use Padlock?
I like to think he knew I was having a blast and I like to belive he was having a good time thinking about what I was experiencing cause he had been in my shoes way back when. At least, that's how I like to recall the experience.

Someone once posted (at another forum) that there's one thing that seems to apply to MOST Combat flight simmers, they're anal retentive. That's been my observation too (and I don't exclude myself on this one). Even more, I'll go the extra yard and add that all too many seem self-centered and easily offended as well.

Gee willikers Batman! I mean, isn't this after all just virtual reality?

What is lost really but a number or a 'You Won' on the puter monitor? At first, yes! But after 1 or 3 years? Might be more to it than many are willing to admit.

I know the fustrations and associated feelings when I read criticism about my work from those who NEVER make a damn thing for anyone else but somehow never fail to have something negative to say to those who do the work (and please don't tell me about that Labor Of Love vs Work BS).

I've learned to make add-ons first for myself, for my enjoyment or to fill a need I have when I'm flying in IP's for hours on end and then Second, to post it online and POSSIBLY for that ONE PERSON who might use it and say .... WOW!

Someone with much online experience once said to me, "do it cause you WANT to, as a hobbie or whatever. Cause any other reason will bring disappointment". So true.

In closing:

A dissertation from a distraut Bear

It's a dangerous line I walk, between the Land of Reality and the Land of Virtual Reality. I might forget which is which though, within myself, I'm absolutely sure I can always tell the difference. Often, I forget that if I pull the plug on the ole computer, for me all of the online world would be gone in a flash.

I tend to forget there's an actual human being on the other end of the wire - that they're not just the text I see on my monitor screen. And I forget the responsibility I have, the accountability, for laying out words that will effect others in one way or another.

Is it not THEY who are responsible for how they take what I type? And is it not THEIR accountability for how they react to my text? After all, who would really take any of this online stuff seriously enough for it to really matter?

It is for the one single person who MIGHT take my text seriously, that I do my best to not forget that there is a human being at the other end of, what is before me, an illuminated piece of glass.

WOW, heavy man .....

posted 06-19- 09:32 AM               

Well-- I am not a frequent onliner-- mainly because the times that most people are online is when my wife wants the most attention

But there are times when late at night old Jeeves climbs into a plane and gets his butt shot off-- and have a ball doing it LOL My system is a bit unstable at times though and non-patch CTD's are frequent...but when it does work- it is a beautiful thing.

Psi et al....sorry I couldn't stay earlier this AM but it was 2 AM and I had to get up at 6

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Brought to you by the campaign for a better Dauntless!

posted 06-19- 12:33 PM               

But obviously some don't want to hear it.

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nealg=FC=

posted 06-19- 02:42 PM               

Making the effort to improve planes or add new ones that have realistic FMs, DMs and such is less than thankless as everyone implies (or on repeaded occasions states outright).

It can be very demoralizing. You not only build your plane and deal with whatever frustrations might arise, you also must put up with the slings and arrows that come from the community.

If a builder seems to be elitist, there is a very good chance the community has made him that way. He does it out of self defense....

If you havent gone through the hours and hours of research, modeling, learning Open Plane, working with OPS you have no room to whimper.

I know when PP5.1 came out I made all sorts of noise (which I now regret). Then I got involved...

At the very least become a test pilot. (Goodness only knows there are few enough of them, at least ones that provide data).

Bottom line is, if you dont contribute dont bitch.

posted 06-19- 03:29 PM               

"Welcome to our world.... won't you come on in....."

posted 06-19- 05:58 PM               

For Nat's personal files.
I am a 40 year old man.
I am university educated.
I hold a Master's degree in biology.
I am a published author.
I have probably read more books than you have ever seen.
I would bet a years salary and my childrens college fund that my I.Q. is higher than yours.
I'm willing to believe that I can also kick your ass in an arm wrestle.

posted 06-19- 07:58 PM               

Hey, what can I say, I was damned annoyed to think that the hard work put in by alot of people was being dragged down, and I like not being the nice guy when I go on the offensive

As for the other stuff, I doubt very much (infact I know) that you've been through the eductaion system for longer than I have, and have better quals, and quiet possibly have a higher IQ, my last test was at 6am one morning but I was happy with 40 points above normal (European normal) annoyed me tha my g/f in Detriot did it at the same time as me and only dropped 2 points though.. LOL

posted 06-19- 08:01 PM            

Only one a very few times i've ventured into this area! well i followed a link in general here

what will I find ,,, I thought ,said , 7 hail marys later
Then I find Ritt Bear,, mentioning my name,, and it's not a Flame.. the opposite..

posted 06-20- 12:37 AM               

Problem is, if no one "takes charge" then nothing gets done. If someone does, then they become the lightning rod for everyones frustrations and annoyances with the game in general.

There is a 70 meg patch for WW2Online and a similarly large download for Aces high so it seems these kind of downloads are becoming common place.

The big reason I don't fly SDOE much online anymore is that using the new .9 patch and windows 2000 causes me to have alot of pauses and I'd just as soon save y'all the grief of slamming into my stationary plane

Best of luck !

TS

posted 06-20- 07:50 AM            

SDoE needs a command structure, for the sake of sanity. A firm leading hand, a single voice that says "This is how it will be."

I propose as I did over a year ago...a dictator with a council of ten advisors.

First the whole SDoE community should elect eleven councillors. Those eleven councillors should then elect one of their number to be a supreme dictator.
The SD, taking advice from his council, then decides how SDoE should proceed...end of story.

BraveHeart has some very valid points. SDoE is no further ahead, in terms of online playability, than it was over a year ago. Where are all the squads? Where is the multi-squad online war? NOBODY IS PLAYING!!! About the only organised online play to be seen over the last year is that between JG3, the FC and the 26...and even that has petered out.

If all SDoE is meant to be is a training tool for modellers, skinners and FM'ers, then fine...it's doing a great job. If it's supposed to be about hundreds of squad members ejoying an organised online war...it's a horrible failure.

We need an elected dictator, and having elected him we need to follow his direction fiathfully, even if we don't agree with everything he says and does. If he goes nuts, the ten councillors can sack him.

Get some fucking kind of organisation going or see SDoE finally go down the crapper.

posted 06-20- 08:50 AM               

I'm getting all choked up... It's our beloved Siggi of old!

posted 06-20- 09:30 AM            

SDoE is like a gut-shot pig that refuses to die.

posted 06-20- 09:32 AM               

Werner

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Abbeville Field: Dedicated to the SDOE Experience.