posted 05-09- 12:00 PM            

Equal protection under law. It's an ideal we need to continue to attempt to live up to. Yes, we fall short in many ways but that doesn't mean we shouldn't keep trying to make it to that lofty goal.

posted 05-09- 04:42 PM               

It's a case by case thing... if it can be proven in court that they beat him up because he was white, then they should be prosecuted for hate crimes.

Look at it this way... Timothy McVeigh's target wasn't just the Murrah building... his target was the Federal Government. In other words, he sought to terrorize this entire nation. He should be prosecuted for that as well as for blowing up the building and killing people.

Same thing goes for hate crimes... if a crime is done with the intent to terrorize an entire segment of the population, the penalty should take that into consideration. Like terrorism, even though a hate crime may target an individual or a small number of individuals, the intent is to terrorize, by example, a much broader audience. In that regard, since you have more victims, the penalty should be greater. That's why hate crimes legislation makes perfect sense.

But like I said in another thread... that a hate crime was committed has to be provable in court via evidence and testimony.

posted 05-09- 06:35 PM               

[This message has been edited by Burkey (edited 05-09-2001).]

posted 05-14- 06:49 AM               

Oh yeah, here we come with the outraged "He killed children" hypocrisy.
Sure, he killed children...accidentally. Same as US forces accidentally killed hundreds of children in Bhagdad and Yugoslavia...don't hear anyone crying about that collateral damage, eh?

Timothy is a soldier, and he was engaged in a war against arrogant, murdering federal scum. The ATF, FBI...freedom stealing, murdering scum who deserve to be executed for crimes against humanity.
The ATF allowed that bomb to go off...why? To secure their federal funding. Yes, they allowed innocent children to die in the interests of self-serving empire building bullshit.

The sooner you witless wankers wake up to what's going down in this world, the sooner we can root-out the scum and vermin who are shitting all over hard-working ordinary citizens. And let's be honest...a good number of you know full well what's going down, but are too gutless to face it. Better to pretend that our leaders are fine upstanding human beings...makes it easier to brown-nose and continue taking their shaft up the arse.

While you're all busy demonising Timothy McVeigh, spare a thought for the children who were MURDERED by federal ATF and FBI scum at Wako. Timothy McVeigh was engaged in legitimate warfare against those scum, the same scum who made sure their assasins were clear of the building when McVeigh's bomb went off.

posted 05-14- 09:43 AM               

There's a war going on all around us, one the media is very clever at concealing. Simple example...pictures from Bhagdad, lots of burning 'legitimate target' buildings...pictures from Murrah, lots of dead/hurt baby images ("Evil Tim, bad bad bad!").

Get fucked. Maggot leaders with their cocks up the media's arse.
We won't need a war with China to fuck our civilisation up; civil war is ever closer, fueled by the steadily growing outrage of better informed common people. Why do you think the scum want to bridle the internet? Yep, keep the people from learning about what's going on. Mass media by the people for the people...tch tch, can't have that, eh?

Make it a new hobby guys...once a week, take a firearm and shoot a fed. Better still, shoot a fat-cat/politician/media exec. Feds are nothing more than brainless thugs just "Obeying orders" anyway...go for the head/s and the body will die.

posted 05-14- 10:02 AM               

Like McVeigh, you have no proof of this.

An argument can be made that perhaps the Feds shouldn't have gone in the way they did, but there is no evidence that the Feds set those fires. In fact, most of the evidence I've seen points to Koresh as being the one who set the fires.

Don't be like the far Right Wing Wackos in this country... Even if you don't believe the evidence, apply Ockham's Razor... Does it really seem more likely to you that Janet Reno ordered the destruction of the compound? Don't you think that would be taking an enormous risk? Does it really seem less likely that a paranoid fanatic who believed himself to be Jesus Christ would murder Federal Agents, murder his followers, and then commit suicide?

I know that the conspiracy theory is much more fanciful and intersting to explore, but the truth of the matter is that Koresh brought down that compound, not Janet Reno.

posted 05-14- 10:49 AM               

And who knows the truth about Koresh? Did you know him, or *learn* about him from the media? How do you know that everything reported about him isn't BS propaganda?

And your comments about Janet Reno (a cocksucking scum-bag, EOS) only prove that they rely on your willingness to disbelieve them capable of atrocities so that they can freely commit them. You assume them incapable of wickedness, only because the truth is too aweful to face.
The truth is that these creatures seek to better their own lot, and that of their kith and kin, at ANY cost. Money, power...they will do anything to ensure they are in receipt of large amounts.
Simplistic? What other motive could they have? Are we to believe that the people at Wako constituted a real threat to the happiness and well-being of the United State's population? Why couldn't they have simply been left alone? Were they running around murdering people and robbing banks? Were they holding people against their will? No. They simply affronted the arrogance of the people who deemed themselves 'in charge'...they wouldn't kow-tow to authority.

It really is very simple; a relative handful of people on this planet have it large in the playground of life, and they want to keep it that way. And the only way they can do that is by subjugating the general population into slaving their guts out for peanuts.
This is no conspiracy theory...it's a fact borne out by history and simple observation. The fat-cats don't want fair shares for all...that would mean bye-bye big country house and Porsche 911. It would mean bye-bye surfeit of good food, top-line medi-care, expensive clothes and nights out on the top-dollar town.

Fuck all the conspiracy theories...as you say, Occam's razor demands a simple explanation; and the simple explanation is that a few selfish, greedy motherfuckers want bigger and better toys than everyone else.

posted 05-14- 12:45 PM               

I base what I know about Koresh on what his own ex-followers have said about him.

posted 05-14- 12:58 PM               

Hardly... I tend to believe that anyone is capable of anything. The question is not whether I believe the FBI is capable of doing atrocious things or not. The question is who do I belive is the more likely culprit in the burning of the Waco compound. You think it's the FBI. I don't. They had nothing to gain by such and action and a lot to lose. On top of that, such an action is extremely difficult to cover up. The more likely scenario is that Koresh set the fires... not surprisngly, that scenario is also the one that the evidence points to.

posted 05-14- 01:09 PM               

Responsible parents should look out for their children, and do everything in their power to keep them out of harms way. One cannot possibly guard against everything, but I sure as hell wouldn't have my children inside a government building for any length of time, ESPECIALLY not one that was known to accomodate the offices of a murderous organisation like the baby-killer, snipe defenceless child-holding women AT fucking F.

Personal responsibility...you work for murderers, you take your chances.
No one allows the claims of the SS that they were "just following orders", so why should excuses be made for secretaries who work for the US butchering government?

Fuck the republicans, fuck the democrats, fuck the FBI, fuck the ATF and fuck any citizen who is too gutless to face reality and fight for the planet and the common good.

You want a bottom line statement? Try this...there are MILLIONS of people starving on this planet, despite the fact that it's population produce more than enough food to feed every single man, woman and child adequately.
RIGHT THERE, in that ONE EXAMPLE, lies the proof that we are led by SCUM!!! There is NO FUCKING EXCUSE FOR IT!!! NONE!!!

The brush strokes are nothing more than the tiny day-to-day details of how the whole picture works. Billions of brush strokes than can be analysed and debated ad-nauseum, pointlessly.
Yes, innocent people die and not all freedom fighters are noble and discerning. But what is the alternative? That the FF play by 'the rules' and give the murderers victory on a plate?

There is a very big difference between a FF who kills in passionate defence of a worthy ideal, and a state-sanctioned thug who kills in cold blood because a self-serving beast orders it.

Our societies are ROTTEN, from the top down, and it's time something was done about it. Revolutions don't work, they've been tried for millenia, and the same scum rise to the top every time...so let's try the lone-brake principle...loose cannons on the street who take-out the guilty. Put the scum in fear of their lives, make them afraid of every shadow, and maybe we can SCARE them into behaving properly. Shoot, bomb, whatever...get the fuckers to heel and do what WE the people TELL them to do. That's what democracy is supposed to be about, ain't it? Instead of these cocksuckers buying their way into power and then doing just what the fuck they like.

posted 05-14- 01:53 PM               

I talk shit? You read like shit.

I have no time for people who plant bombs in shopping streets; the risk of collateral damage is so bloody obvious that one has to assume they intended children to be killed.
It's called risk assessment isn't it? One has to weigh the value of the target against the likelihood of innocents being killed...ok when a state does it, but "evil" when an individual does it? Piss off.

Personally I would never use a bomb, they are simply too indiscriminate and impossible to deploy precisely.

But give me a silenced machine pistol, and the home addresses of SCUM, I'd consider that fair game. One bullet to the head, no fall-out, no collateral damage, justice delivered directly to the right address.

posted 05-14- 02:04 PM            

Before you say that someone who would do this is a hero I strongly suggest you experience firsthand the horror of a bombing like this one. The vast majority of people in that building were simply office workers - clerks and such. It is an unfortunate reality that it is no longer realistic to expect one parent to earn enough for the family - so kids go to daycare. These people were doing their best to be good parents by bringing their children to a daycare at their work - so they could spend as much time with their kids as possible. To call them irresponsible for doing so is an insult beyond measure.

These were not the power mongering people in charge that you rant about. these are the little people - the ones scraping by in uderpaid jobs trying to make ends meet. Not the super powerful people who make decisions of life or death everyday. Timothy McVeigh could have called in a bomb threat and gotten the building evacutated prior to destroying it. His message would have been sent and innocents would have been spared. He chose not to do this. He is an animal - less than human and deserves no more respect than your common sewer rat.

Killing the average citizen is no way to rally people to your cause. If you want to make a statment to the people in charge aim you attacks at them... not the little people simply trying to survive. For god's sake - he attacked a building in Oaklahoma! O-A-K-L-A-H-O-M-A!!!! Not exactly the seat of federal Govt now is it? Seems to me that if you want to send a message to somebody you do it at their home... not a 1000 miles away. Mcveigh is a thug... a stupid one at that. If he really had a political agenda he would have been far better served to hit DC (which he could have done just as easily).

-Stark

posted 05-14- 05:03 PM               

Oh well, I guess you've just told the US airforce where to get off then. RAF too. How many children killed in Bhagdad? Yugoslavia? Vietnam? (Shall I go on?)

McVeigh's a thug. Airforce personnel, just heroes "obeying orders", eh?

You have a simple choice when faced with working for a government agency, regardless of your particular circumstances. You ask yourself: "Do I want to be associated, in any way, with a regime that murders it's own citizens and oppresses their freedoms?"
I doubt if many of the workers at the Murrah building had that level of intellectual sophistication, indoctrinated as they were from birth that "Government is good". So, you might say they were ill equipped to defend themselves from harm in the first place.

McVeigh chose a path that I myself would not have chosen, but I do not accept that he deliberately set out to kill children. I've read and heard a lot about him, and everything points to him being a compassionate person who was genuinely outraged at the excesses of his own government. Maybe his rage got the better of his judgement...he clearly regrets the death of so many kids. But, in the final analysis, is he any worse than a trained pilot who rains bombs and missiles on a city over Iraq, knowing that child casualties are inevitable? If you condemn McVeigh, you must condemn the pilots of the airforce...and I don't see you doing that. What I see is you becoming media patsies, sucking up the BS propaganda and being conned into applying double standards.

And remember also...McVeigh was a trained soldier, conditioned by deliberate training to supress his aversion to killing fellow human-beings. The state trained him to kill, then saw him kill the wrong people. Kill Iraqi children..."Good Timmy, good, good! Medal!" Kill US children..."Bad Timmy, bad, bad! Execution!"

Hero? Yes. He put his life on the line for an idea, the idea that all people should be free from tyranny. You mugs think you're free in America? Take your heads out of the sand for five long minutes, you'd shit yourselves.

As for experiencing the horror of such bombings first hand, been there and done it in Bosnia. I know what smashed children look and smell like. And I know the mentality of people like those who stormed the building at Wako...spineless thugs who look for an excuse to experience the thrill of killing, protected from consequences by virtue of the uniform their state gives them. Until the likes of McVeigh come along and show them that there are, sometimes, consequences beyond the state.

Innocent people died, and that's never good. But maybe, just maybe, the next time the ATF scum are considering another bunch of murders, they'll think about McVeigh and hesitate. And maybe some other children won't die.

Violence begets violence, but if it is the duty of anyone to break the cycle it is of those who form the state apparatus.

posted 05-14- 05:28 PM               

Well, going by your rationale, the SS concentration camp guards had a legitimate defence: "We were just obeying orders, we needed the job and we were never involved in the killing and torturing anyway...we didn't even know it was going on. Honest."

Oh, I'm comparing the US government to the nazis. A question of degree. Ask the daughter of the woman sniped through the head by the ATF/FBI cocksucker if she feels any better knowing that it's only a few hundred citizens that are murdered by the state each year, instead of six million. She'd spit in your face.

posted 05-14- 05:39 PM            

Did you know that, in his own words, those kids were "acceptable losses". He DID know that the daycare was there and has said that he did. He did realize that he would be killing children. He did it anyway.

The difference between McVeigh and an airforce pilot is really very simple. The airforce, when attacking an area has a definate goal, usually suppress or destroy the enemies ability to prosecute an offensive battle. They do not blow up children intentionally to make a political point. Yes, they occasionally mis-identify a target or even get erroneous target info fed to them but they do not (not since WWII) intentionally bomb civilians. This is why 'smart' weapons were developed - to reduce the number of non-combatant casualties. It is a hell of a lot cheaper to carpet bomb a city than it is to use laser guided munitions to remove specific targets - but that is no longer done (thank-god!).

Tim McVeigh's goal was to induce terror - which he did. He also had a goal of weakening or frightening government - which he did not succeed in. He's an idiot, not a hero. Would people be any more free if the twits who think a good way to get their political message across is bombing things were in power? Heck, back when the Taliban were a 'freedom fighter' group in Afganistan they espoused that the government was immoral and oppressing the people (the same load you hear from "freedom" people here). Taken a good look at Afganistan lately??

The only things McVeigh succeeded in doing were convincing most of this country that maybe those militia types really are dangerous (most of whom are not) and should be watched and that perhaps more Government control over weapons would be a good thing. So either he was an idiot that ended up betraying his own stated ideals (removal of Government being one) or a patsy to the giant conspiracy that runs the country from behind the scenes... which is it? No, let me guess...

You want to change the world... convince people to fear the people in power, not to fear those who would supposedly "help" them - which is all they've done so far.

posted 05-14- 05:55 PM            

Are all the ATF/FBI agents evil people? No. Not even most of them are. Most are hard working people trying to make this country a bit safer for everybody else. Does that excuse the 'mistakes' that have been made? No. Does that make it OK for McVeigh to bomb a federal building? No.

You've mention Waco several times. Have you even bothered to research what went on there? Did you know that several days before the whole stand-off occured 2 FBI agenats knocked on the door with a warrant to check for illegal weapons and were shot at? Without having ever fired a shot? Was what happened at Waco a terrible thing? Yes it was. Was Koresh without fault in the incident? Far from it. Same goes for the ATF and FBI. Everybody screwed up and people died because of it.

McVeigh is not and never will be treated as a hero by most of the people in this country because his actions were NOT desgined to help anyone. They were merely designed to terrorize and kill. You would be singing a different tune if your wife had been conducting business in that building at the time of the blast (as 57 victims were). You see a federal building is just that - a place of the business of federal govt and therefore normal citizens (not gov't employees) doing things pertaining to their daily lives do frequent such buildings. High ranking gov't officials usually do not.

Martin Luther King was a revolutionary and a hero - therefore he became a martyr. He showed how to win the support of the people and truly change things. McVeigh is an unitelligent thug with delusions of grandure and purpose. Nothing more.

-Stark

posted 05-14- 06:43 PM               

Smart bombs/missiles? They took out more household microwave ovens than they did legit targets...households with children in them. Acceptable losses though, eh?

McVeigh was ttempting to cow the government? I thought he was trying to send a simple message: "Murder innocent citizens, there will be the possibility of consequences from outraged individual citizens."

Sure, the media (govt agency) managed to twist the reality of what happened out of all recognition...that's what the media does in a police state ("Is that a wallet or a gun in your hand? Never mind, bang bang.").

Why does your second amendment exist? Do I, a foreigner, have to tell you?? It exists so that the people have a means by which they can fight the state if it ever becomes tyrannical. Hey, guess what McVeigh was doing!!!
And fuck me if I haven't heard a thousand times more bleating over the victims of McVeigh's bomb than I've ever heard over the thousands killed at the hands of US forces world-wide.

If McVeigh was a soldier, fighting govt tyranny per the second ammendment, I'd say his statement regarding "acceptable losses" has as much validity as the US govt's when it said the same in Iraq/Yugoslavia/Vietnam.

And please don't hand me a bunch of sad shite about how he deliberately and knowingly targeted the creche. If one was to believe the sewage spouted by your tame press I'd be calling McVeigh a satanistic baby-eater.

Does your second amendment specify how citizen resistance is to be made legal when practised? Of course it fucking doesn't. But that didn't stop the founding fathers from instituting it. No doubt they forsaw that those who availed themselves of it would be executed as traitors and terrorists...much like hitler's would-be assasins were.

You lot are talking utter bollocks. You are applying double-standards, contradictory hogwash and pure propaganda. A thousand bombs go off in Bhagdad, not a peep; one bomb goes off in Oklahoma, you scream the place down.

And to think that McVeigh would be stupid enough to deliberately fuck his own intent, by deliberately killing kids, is asinine in the extreme. He is an intelligent enough guy, intelligent enough to know that killing kids would negate the whole purpose of his exercise. Common-sense alert chaps, put down your NE's and smell some coffee.

posted 05-14- 06:57 PM               

Cue the brits, the occupying force of NI, the rapists, murderers, thieves, torturers of the past few hundred years.
I'll never agree with the planting of bombs in purely civilian areas, but by fuck I can sure understand the hatred that drove them to it.

Anyway Burkey, you've taken to name-calling and quoting me out of context, or completely incorrectly, so I'll not bother with you anymore. "Idle threats" when I very clearly posed a "what if" scenario. Lame mate. "Silenced MP" as opposed to "Gun", so as not to appear a naive fool who would make much noise and believe he had half a chance. Subtleties that are clearly lost on you.

posted 05-14- 07:18 PM            

Siggi, just because somebody targets the government (whether they are a just or unjust govt is immaterial here) does not automatically make them freedom fighters with a higher intention and amazing sense of "right". Sometimes they are just nutjobs. McVeigh falls into this group. Violence of the nature exhibited by McVeigh has never succeded, in the entire history of the world, in anything other than enraging a populace against the perpatraitor of said violence.

Yes, the second amendment does guarantee the right to bear arms to in order to insure that the government never becomes capable of quelling any mass uprising by force. And I will be the first person to defend that right. I will not however defend the right of a person to take the lives of 168 unarmed people including 19 children in an act of terrorism - not open rebellion. The difference between terrorism and open rebellion is very simple - the terrorist runs and hides and tries to slink away. the rebel proudly proclaims what hes has done and is support by many others. 1 man cannot, by definition, be a rebellion. Yes, as I said before the armed forces of every country to ever persecute a war (or police action or whatever the hell you wish to call it) have killed many civilians. There is a difference though - in 99.99% of those cases the civilians knew that there was a war going on or about start. They knew that their area was in harms way... and, for whatever reason they did not leave (possibly they could not). Many, in fact most, of their neighbors did leave rather than stay in harms way. If your house is situated next to a military administrative building or your street is often used by military vehicles you can expect that the likelyhood or ordinance in your immediate vicinity is high. In both Iraq and Bosnia there was weeks worth of warnings that bombing would commence. We told them the exact day that it would start...and many fled to protect themsleves. Some of those that did not paid with their lives. It was not however the intetnion of the armed forces to kill the civilians - only to kill the military. If an APC is parked outside my house in croatia and there is an F-16 screaming overhead I would kind of expect that the results would not be pleasant.

There has been no group in the US that has declared war openly on the federal gov't. Until such a thing occurs act's like McVeigh's can only be classified as terrorism. He acted in the best interest of no-one. Certainly not the militia type people who are usually the 'victims' in ATF operations. Certainly not in the interests of the people of Oklahoma city.

posted 05-14- 07:26 PM            

I assure you that I know my American history better than you do. I also assure you that folks like McVeigh do not equate to Washington and his fellow revolutionaries. They formed th basis of a governemtn and then proceeded to armed rebellion - they did not commit acts of violence without offering an alternative to what they were fighting.

posted 05-14- 07:58 PM               

Whatever, I cannot stomach the deliberate targeting of children, nor any act that even endangers them. Maybe I'll have to reassess my view of McVeigh, bearing in mind the possibility that the admissions you speak of might be blatant media fabrications.

As for rebellions, and numbers of citizens involved...how would you call such riots as the one caused by the Rodney King beating? I'd call that a thwarted rebellion by a whole community that was sick of being brutalised by state-sanctioned thugs. Seems to me also that the black man in America is the only one with the balls to take to the streets these days...whitey just sticks his head in the sand and oils his arse in the hope the continued shafting won't hurt too much.
Or maybe the tyrants have learned how to balance things just so these days...keep the piss-taking just on the edge between what is endurable and what would tip the citizens over.

Whatever...it doesn't deal with the images I see too often on TV of children that look like anorexic aliens with bellies the size of space-hoppers. Who's fighting for them? Sure ain't the anglo-saxon superior race...they're too busy slaving in the factories so's they can meet their rip-off bills and tax demands.