posted 03-16- 07:23 PM               

You do know that we're not allowed to make our aircraft fly for Il2 don't you, yes we're allowed to make the model, but apparently their aircraft are so complicated us "lower mortals" over here at SDOE could never learn how to make one fly using their system so they wont let us try, and wont release any info/tools to do it ourselves, we're simply not good enough.. build the model, send it to Oleg, and if it's good enough his team will add it to the game with the DM and FM done by them.

Now try telling that to Razer, Argon, me, Tailgunner, DanW, Ronnin, Pete Hawk, mpossis.. oh and any one else you can think of.

Sorry, if I aint allowed to make it fly myself, then I don't wanna build it.

posted 03-16- 09:56 PM               

I wouldnt want Il-2 to be like CFS1... ALOT of user made planes for that sim were CRAP. I dont mean to diss some of those plane builders, but some dont have the skills and should stay away from building. Now currently I cant build planes, but I do have OPS skills and ideas to improve this sim as do MANY of you out there.

One of my biggest grunts with this sim is that many old projects never got completed. Now I know that some of you are still working on projects that have ben around for a while and what I just said above doesnt apply to you. But some projects that were started and never really "completed" well... that gets me.

So Snickers, if you choose not to try out IL-2 just because of this, then I pity you. It really is a GREAT sim from what Ive heard from the people who have flown it thus far.

posted 03-16- 11:06 PM               

but

I wont build something I can't make fly, so I wont build for IL2

SDOE is a very good example of what can be done when a sim is open, IL2 could be open but wont be, we all know we could build great aircraft if it were, and make them fly realisticaly. The thing is, quality control is simply not a good argument, look at us! I'm not saying they should allow any old crap to be added to the game for release, but, keeping it closed after release will just limit it's life spane, regardless of how good it it it wont live aslong as SDOE has because SDOE isn't just a game, for most of us (you included ) it's a hobby, lets face it, take OP away from SDOE and the majority of us wouldn't be here.

posted 03-16- 11:53 PM               

Ive owned many a sim, and the good ones stay on my hard drive. I like diversity. Each sim offers something the other one doesnt have. I manage to find time (in all my OPSing...) to fly every sim on my hard drive just about every day. I hope IL-2 will be placed among these. If fact I have no doubt that it will!

Some sims I simply dont want to add on too... Too much time tweaking and downloading, and not enough playing occurs. I havent added a thing to WWII Fighters and B-172 (Other than the official patches) and I tried adding in MODs for EAW and CFS2 but all that takes too much time to learn and download. (I have added minor things to CFS2 that people have done) SDOE is more of a hobby than a sim to me.

posted 03-17- 12:52 AM            

Contrary to what you have heard there are few current and former SDOE community members taking part in building stuff for IL2.

How is the commitment from a developer for a standardization of FM and DM between plane sets and varients in a given time frame elitist?

Is it bad to have planes released that when matched up historically to a given
opponent are relative to each other in flying characteristics and ability?

Imo, this is one area of SDOE that killed this sim for many people. Mismatch after mismatch and uber plane after uber plane, thats a great way to keep a sim fresh and attract new players. NOT!

While its your right not to do anything with IL2, its not an elitist act for a developer to have a standard and expectations in the models that would be included in a (key word here)"supported" add-on.

For a pure modeller or artist this is a great relationship to have with a game developer. You do the cool stuff and someone else gets the headache

Instead of looking at the expectation of quality as a put down, look at it as a challenge to better your skills and perhaps in the end, have it of been totally worth the time and effort.

Or you could just sit and wait around here for a patch

BTW, they already have a 262. Have a look.
http://209.198.154.6/il2-e/boards/forum/message_html.asp?id=''&tid=68482

posted 03-17- 02:38 AM               

How old is SDOE.... Are there more and more members here as time goes by, not less..

My work IS to good to be JUDGED by someone other than a person that knows how to build, add an accurate FM and a good DM, yes, it is. It's not actually a case of it being to good or bad, but more the point that someone that doesn't know what they are talking about simply can't JUDGE it, such a person can give constructive criticism but shouldn't judge (er... I dunno how we got onto this cause I personaly haven't judged anyone about anything ever on this board)

I PERSONALY take it as elitist when someone tells me that I simply couldn't do this or that because it's complicated when they do not know my abilities, if one person can do a thing, so can others.

Having a DM and FM standard is a very good thing for a sim being preped for release, I didn't say it wasn't.

I didn't say planes performance shouldn't be relative (or not) to anything, and infact, they shouldn't be relative to anything at all, they should have realistic flight charachteristics for that aircraft and not be relative to anything other than that.

SDOE was killed off so badly that almost 3 years after it's release this forum and general iinterest in SDOE is actually growing.

Uber planes have been fixed, in fact, these days you're more likely to hear complaints about aircraft under performing, thing is, with SDOE this can be fixed.

It's not elitist for a developer to expect a certain standard, it's elitist to say we couldn't add the DM and FM ourselves because it's so complex.

For a pure modeler I guess Olegs offer is a dream come true

I never look at the expectation of quality as a put down, but it's only modeling, that as you said is the easy part, bettering my skills to me would be a better knowledge of FM setup for which I still have a great deal to learn, how this affects that and so on, can't do that with IL2.

I'll not be just sitting around here waiting for a patch, I'll be bettering my modeling skills by building more aircraft, ships, ground units and terrain, but not only making the models, I'm going to add all the code to make them work properly fly realisticaly when added to SDOE.

Now, I didn't set out to slam IL2, and infact as a flight sim that is only in Beta release it would be hard to anyway, I think I've said enough times that I'll buy it cause it looks damn good, but as I've stated, I wont build something that I can't make fly or work as it should do, my criticism has been that I wont be told something is basicaly above my head without being shown it and given time to work on it.

Now, if you'd like to come back in 3 years time and show me just how great IL2 is doing then we can have a real discussion about it bacause SDOE will be 6 by then and it could be interesting to see who's still around here and just how advanced SDOE is by then, because if you hadn't noticed it's got better year by year, and because it's open we can improve it asmuch as WE want as time goes by to make the most of faster CPU's and g/cards, well... thats said, it all depends on IL2 still being around 3 years after it's launch......

posted 03-17- 03:42 AM               

I don't fly SDOE anymore because of the online damage bug and the lack of support for two joysticks. That doesn't mean they is nothing of value in SDOE, I quit warbirds because it also doesn't have support for two joysticks. Think about it, Warbirds has won almost every online gaming award out there but I don't play it because of a personal preference in joysticks. SDOE and IL-2 are two different sims and there is enough difference between them to appeal to different kinds of people. Oleg obviously thinks that online compatability is more important than developing an openplane concept. Game play is more important to me than acurate FM's so I think he's doing the right thing. I'm not a modeler and if I were game play would still be more important to me than FM's because that is my main interest. I happen to know that some very serious and talented modelers are already working on planes for IL-2. I think it would be a shame if you made them feel unwelcome in this forum by suggesting that there work was incomplete because the final FM's are adjusted by Oleg. Personally I think that if you get the FM right Oleg will not adjust it, but I have no evidence to support that opinion.

posted 03-17- 05:14 AM            

Its a matter of a developer not wanting Il2 to become a "hobby", but as bomber mentioned a sim focused on game play, which btw good or bad, the FM and DM must be relative amongst all aircraft, not just the 2 or 3 that Joe Shmoe built.

"planes performance shouldn't be relative (or not) to anything, and infact, they shouldn't be relative to anything at all"

That imo about sums up alot of the planes that have been added to SDOE. They arent relative to anything. Most likely not even done. I'd have to agree with Argon on this.

If there isnt a balance between a/c then you could never model the fm accurately let alone a Dm. And if you modelled soley off stats then you certainly would not have an accurate Fm. If you plug in the stats into a Sm file, its not going to fly as the stats would lead you to believe. You have to hack and tweak it to fly to your perception of how the stats say the plane should be.

And thats whats great in add ons for Il2, there arnt 20 differnt peoples opinions on how planes should fly, there will be 1 or 2. So what if the stats arnt exact, as long the planes have a balance between them then game play is at its best.

Its not our code to tweak anyhow, it Olegs. Its more proprietary than elitist.

This game(SDOE)was fun 2 and half years ago. The "active" SDOE communtity back then was bigger than it is now, I'm afraid to tell you. And anyhow, the longevity and for that matter the good or bad of either sim was never mentioned. In 3 years hopefully there will be a new OP sim out, one that further promotes the possibilities of OpenPlane, not one that is 6 years old. Aswell hopefully Il2 will have added another theater or 2.

posted 03-17- 05:19 AM               

Nat did investigate the possibility of building user add-ons, and I would guess his in an informed comment.

'factory' add on's are all well and good...but remind me of CFS where you could pay lots of money for new planes.....

I will buy IL2, but I won't be involving myself in a mod building community such as SDOE has. I don't see that there are the rewards to be had from it. You don't control the build and don't do more than supply the developers with stuff that may or may not get used. On average, a detailed model, smoothed, skinned etc. represents a lot of work. Not something I would do for free unless I felt it would be appreciated. the SDOE community is an exception to that rule, because I genuinely enjoy it. Even when it gets hard ( ArgonV...you know what I mean! ...those wings were killers) the end result is worth it in my mind. Not so if it goes away never to be seen again. Possibly into the realm of copyright 'it belongs to IL"...'

That may change in the future, but only if the situation does. If I can build a plane completely, or work with a team to achieve it, then the pleasure will be there and I'll give the time.

( soapbox back in the cupboard! )

IL2 looks like a great game though!

posted 03-17- 09:28 AM            

Building a plane for a war sim is a very complex operation. It can take months to complete. I think it's a real good deal for the developer, free planes and pure profit. Heck maybe I'll make a sim if so many want to give away their work!

http://www.rcwarbirds.com/geebee.htm

posted 03-17- 09:33 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snickers:
Not elitist. He just wants to make sure that all of the planes released for the game are of good quality and play together on line.

---

Polish. It's the difference between a good game, and crap.

quote:

---

Wait we have that here and now.

---

Phah. The FM's in this game suck. Not all of them, some of them are great, but if you take the entire PP the quality simply isn't there. I completely understand Oleg's point.

This is to be expected of course. There's no policy on what needs to be in the plane before it makes it into the PP, and many of the planes are known to be complete dogs but are in there for historical or accidential reasons.

Any attempt to sort this out gets you flamed by all the people saying you're insulting the plane builders, even when Spin tries it. There's been what, three different effort to come up with some sort of minimum standards?

posted 03-17- 09:40 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nat:
The thing is, quality control is simply not a good argument, look at us!

---

Indeed. Fantastic models. Stunning paint jobs. Fighters that climb at 60 degrees or more, and Mossies that can't get off the ground.

Sounds like a great argument. Actually it depends on what the argument is. If you want your game to have great FM's then it's a great argument (so far). If you don't, and your players don't either, then it doesn't make a difference one way or the other.

From what I've seen here the players don't really care too much for the FM side of things, as long as it's in the ballpark. In fact there seems to be an amazing ability to pretend there's nothing wrong - remember the early He 162 with the CoG in the wrong area? "Oh, it's supposed to be like that!".

posted 03-17- 12:23 PM               

SDOE would be KILLER right now if we had the audience... there could be 2 or 3 plane packs right now... one for guys who loved the most variety, one like we have now, and one with a very strict FM spec qualification.

The fact is that SDOE is not the limiting FM/DM factor, the community is. We just don't have the following of CFS... but we could have... based on what we have achieved with the VERY limited size of the community, one could conclude that there is something to this open concept.

What no one is mentioning here is that there IS no possible correct FM/DM - it IS subjective! Now granted, climb rate, top speed, etc. are objective - but it is CRITICAL to understand that there is much, MUCH more to FM than these few standard measurements. Any FM based on just those specs is not really a "flight" model, but a "combat" model... and even then it is not a realistic combat model, just one that leads to good game play.

I predict that the IL2 FM/DM will be like CFS, etc. - and that is FINE. I will put it on my HD for sure, but it will never become "the" thing for me. It looks great - and will be a work of art - and game play may very well be OUTSTANDING... but if you want real immersion - and love "flight" - than SDOE still will have way more to offer IMO.

For someone who likes to just model - and would love to see his plane in a game - the IL2 offer is very nice - I think it shows that they care about the passion involved with creating a flight sim... and they are willing to share, as far as makes sense for their vision.

This is a hard decision for any new flight sim product... for example, 17 Hours looks like they will be controlling the planes, while Wings with Wires will support an open system... but in my opinion, the real victory will be wrapped up in new and clever solutions to integrating an open system into a controlled game-play area.

posted 03-17- 12:40 PM            

The thought that because an effort might not be tweaked or for that matter put into an add-on is a waste of time or doing the developers work for free is wrong.

Actually the builders here have helped Activision sell more copies of SDOE than their marketing team ever did. Not to mention all the free work to further OP. And for what? FREE! So that argument isnt even valid for this topic.

Wouldnt it be nice to have more than flying eye candy. How about a complete package for a change? Maury is right, for the most part the PP's are incomplete. That imo is a "waste of time", for free I might add.

Dont get me wrong, alot of the stuff that has happend here has been great. Planes included. Its just a shame that most never get completed.

I guess that some people do it for the art and others do it just to be recongized.

Sv if you read the above post you'd see that your views on FM/DM have been mentioned. You are absolutely right. Good or bad, FM's that are relative between aircraft, then make the experience of the sim better.

What isnt right is assuming that because someone has controll over FM it will be crap. Look who published B17-2. With the loss of MP, then I would imagine that the targeted consumer group changed from one who sims regulary to one that would buy the sim because the box is cool. There is no comparrison between B17 and Il2 in that regard.

posted 03-17- 01:19 PM               

You miss the point that other sims can not do the FM as well as OpenPlane. This is not because they are dumb, it is because their vision has a focus on thing outside of the flight model fidelity, and this takes dev time and CPU cycles away from the physics...

We don't do it here for free! We GET new planes!!! How much did you guys pay for the plane pack? NOTHING! So you just made like $20 at least... see, we all win. Plus, creating the aircraft IS the game for many! But if you only have an "input" (the mesh and texture) - then you are not really modeling, you are just helping out for free. If you only like the 3d modeling, then it can be very fun... but like Hawk said, most people like flying, not just a pretty thing - people who just like the pretty thing can model still-3d scenes that are very artistic.

I do agre, however, that the work we are missing most is the relative FM between the aircraft that make game play fun. But this is just because we don't have enough people... we do a HUGE amount of relative FM testing with the WWI planes... testing A vs. B, B. vs C, and A vs. C, etc. This is missing now overall in SDOE, but it is not an OpenPlane limitation.

You mention flying eye candy? To me, that is what IL-2 is about... that and game play. People have screen-shot fever, this is not changing. OpenPlane offers the most realistic physics and potential for immersive flight models, but the call goes unanswered by most... all except for us here.

I think IL2 will be great, but not because it is a "closed" system. Being a "closed" system is needed for IL2 to be what it should be, but it is not needed for any sim to be successful.

SDOE did not "die" because of its open architecture, it died thanks to many factors including terrible marketing, late release, dumbed down FM's on shipping planes, and hitting the market at teh height of WW2 saturation.

An Open based combat flight sim CAN work, and WILL work... but it will indeed take clever planning... it does not happen by itself.

So is IL2 going to become the new B17 II? The game that can do it all... this is sounding like a build up for a let down again... I hope not. I know that IL-2 can NOT be everything to everyone... every great art has a vision, and I see a great vision in IL-2, but it does not include the most real feeling of flight and "life" in the aircraft... you will not feel the weight of the aircraft on the wheels like with OpenPlane... the DM won't be as "alive" - but game play will be outstanding, and it will be a wonderful world to fly in and explore... I love the ground models...

posted 03-17- 01:43 PM               

Oleg controling the quality of aircraft being added to the game for release if fine, thats exactly the right thing t do and no-one would expect otherwise.

Where the "problem" comes is later... now, our aircraft may not be perfect, as we've said maney times in the past, you can't get them perfect, but lets say close enough. SDOE has not been made worse because of user made addons, hell even the bad ones haven't made SDOE worse. The fact that SDOE is still alive and kicking is purely down to the fact that we can add anything we want. We'd love to see every addon finished and of a high standard, but even when it's not, it is still an addon, extra to the game that wasn't there before, and the best thing, if you don't like it, you don't use it

The ultimate answer is that IL2 will not allow user made addons no matter how good the model is, and the FM, well, with IL2 I'm not even able to add and FM because it's closed, and I really don't think that 3 years after release Oleg will still be working on free addon packs.

Now this was never meant to be an SDOE vs IL2 thread, but it's almost working out that way, I think though that to those of us here that do alot of building and "code finding" these are the easy points to remember:

SDOE:
"if you build it they will come" We can build anything and add it to SDOE, and if it's not done well, it can be worked on by anyone and brought upto a better standard, the point is, it can be done. This sim is not still going strong because of any other reason than OP

IL2:
Looks like it will be a stunner, visualy great, but, flay all the aircraft, fly every mission etc etc, 6 months-1 year down the line, where the interest gone.

Yes SDOE is a hobbyist combat sim, but don't forget, most of the posts here are from people adding to this game, there are alot of people out there that don't build for SDOE and just look forward to the addon because it expands the game for them, they aren't hobbyists, they want to play a combat sim and take enjoyment from what we can add.

Still, I have to disagree though, the FM's should be as close to stats for that aircraft as possible, are you seriously going to tell me that building an FM to anything other than stats is right?? How should we do it then, from hearsay? The problem we have is that our FM is fairly basic, it could actually be much much more advanced even with the code we have now, you codes I have in my head and not put into practice yet cover almost every complaint I've heard about our limited FM. But still, this way of talking always take me back to my original point, the fact that I "ME" "Myself", I can add the FM and make it as accurate as I'm able to, I have that power with SDOE, you simply don't have that with IL2. Setting their own standard for the game release is fine, it'll be for the best, but after it's release and after maybe 1 addon pack, what then, play it to death, what then.. the answer in SDOE is obvious, go out and make what you think is missing, or request it on this board and hope it will get made, but either way SDOE keeps on growing, and as machines get faster I can start adding more of the complex coding that I already know I can do. This isn't an attempt to show off, it's the point that the way is there to make very advanced FM's with the code we have now, in the past it hasn't been done because there has always been a method to building aircraft and maney haven't looked outside of that method.

Now, to end my post because I'm seriously just rambling on, I have to say this (in a very childish voice)

posted 03-17- 02:12 PM            

You are making great sense on most points. Believe me that OP is a great tool for what could a great sim engine. But some of us are just waiting for the system to be improved from where it is now. I know, it's being worked on, but in the mean time Il2 is the best thing coming. Will it be "The Sim"? Who knows, we can only hope.

You are also right in that many factors killed this sim for "some" peolpe, along with some of the topics in this thread.

I also feel, that OP is currently the best sim engine out. Is it better than Il2's? I dont know? Have you played it?

SDOE(not the OpenPlane engine) will never be viewed as more than a tinker toy by many simmers at large.

Agreed that an Open sim would be great, for all people, if done correctly. What if a Open sim comes out in the future, and people could do models and Fm/Dm, but only the developer could actually port it into the game? Again, that provides atleast an effort to provide some sort of standard, while giving more freedom in the creation of add-ons. With out any sort of QC, then I feel it will be very hard to sell an open sim to anyone other than the "hobbyist".

What would have really made SDOE a bigger success would have been support by the publisher to produce patches to correct the on line short comings of SDOE. Would you have payed 20 bucks for an add on that would have possibly addressed these issues? I would have, and I'm sure the sim community at large would have to, if it was done in a timely manner after release.

I dont believe anyone here has claimed that Il2 will be perfect sim. When are they ever? Never was Il2 psyhics modeling compared to OP's. What imo is better is Il2 is that, there will be a standard in add-on Fm/Dm. As you mentioned this is lacking in SDOE.

The planes are pretty, as were SDOE's when it was first released. It is critical to the imersion for alot of people, as is balanced game play.

The builders here still do this for free. So, it produces more planes, the work is still done for free. Modeling for Il2 will produce more planes.

"But if you only have an "input" (the mesh and texture) - then you are not really modeling, you are just helping out for free"

What, do you get paid for making add-ons for SODE? Someone who might do still work isnt really modeling? Because someone didn't use OPS, they arnt modeling? That is exactly the one sided "elitist", look at me stuff that has caused alot of people to turn away from SDOE and Op.

Regardless of why, how or by who, one fact remains. From the OP wiz to texture artist to 3d modeler, we do it for the love of flight and history as well as a passion to better the things we enjoy.

It still gets me how passionate and at times one sided some of the people are here. No one here has put down Sdoe or Op for that matter yet IL2, something other than SDOE gets slammed.

posted 03-17- 02:34 PM            

Drop the "me" and try promoting the future. Like I said, the longevity has nothing to do with the topic from which you originally strayed. And if what you predict is true, then I might also predict that Il2 would evolve into a more open based sim. Just as a few other good sims have done in the past.

And I still hope that you still arn't playing SDOE in 3 years, by god I hope something better is out by then, be it open or closed.

posted 03-17- 02:39 PM               

IL2 is a game that I will buy and play, as I did EAW. I don't see the satisfaction in building a detailed model, slaving over the cockpit design etc. only to find that someone has no intention of doing an FM. You can't do it yourself, coz the specs are not going to be released to anyone outside of the team.

The whole game may be great to play, but it isn't the same sort of thing as SDOE. SDOE is designed to be played and played with!

It never got the support and never made Activision any money. Tough break, but that's life.

posted 03-17- 03:03 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sv:
So the FM/DM in B17 must be AMAZING. After all, they had complete control...

---

This is perhaps one of the best examples of what happens when you get a group together with common interests and focus. Lots of excellent work in a few areas, gaping holes in others.

There are indeed some absolutely stunning things in B-17. The graphics are superb, both in terms of the planes themselves, and the terrain. It appears they do both drawing and mapping, so you get nice crisp lines and taxyways and such.

The crew management system is likewise groundbreaking. I always giggle when I see one of the guys walking through the plane to help someone out. It's a minor thing, but it's certainly amazing to watch.

Mission simulation is downright excellent. When you pick a target the system autmoatically lays out a reasonable path, one that gets you in and out with only a little tweaking.

The terrain! Wow! I wish we could do that in SDoE!

But as you say, the FM's just aren't there. Why? Because that's not what they were doing. That's why the really groundbreaking things always come from weird teams - like the Mac.

quote:

---

SDOE would be KILLER right now if we had the audience...

---

I don't think you can say that really. Look at the MS lineup, lots and lots and lots of planes - most of them crap.

A better example is Linux. Huge market, lot of development, 90% of which is 90% complete and almost useless.

There's a point where a product suddenly starts working. Before that point there's so many rough edges you simply say "this is crap". After that point you say "these are bugs" (note the huge difference). I think Alan Kay said it best, "this is the first computer worth complaining about".

quote:

---

FM/DM factor, the community is. We just don't have the following of CFS... but we could have... based on what we have achieved with the VERY limited size of the community, one could conclude that there is something to this open concept.

---

Sure. And I think it would be even better with better tools. Look at the leap in turnout after OPS was released.

Imagine if we have a _really_ good tool for doing terrain? You know, you hand it a list of elevations and landtypes, it pumps out a properly cut-up terrain file. Add textures, presto.

quote:

---

What no one is mentioning here is that there IS no possible correct FM/DM - it IS subjective! Now granted, climb rate, top speed, etc. are objective - but it is CRITICAL to understand that there is much, MUCH more to FM than these few standard measurements.

---

I think it's safe to say that with the current OP engine, getting it "right" is basically impossible. There's just not enough control over things like control force and effectiveness, flutter issues, engine performance curves, etc. Just consider that jets are tiny little props...

BUT the basic premise of your statement is _wrong_. Not a little wrong, completely and totally wrong.

I once got a chance to fly the CAT3 Super-Otter sim at deHaviland. It was fun, the monitors in the windows lit up the cabin to dusk light levels for instance. What was truely amazing is that the entire thing is run by a single 68000 at 8MHz - a Mac Plus.

If they can do it, we can do it.

On a more direct level, there's the _relative_ performance that's even more important. Let's say for instance that the planes were generally good, but they all flew 100mph too slow above 25k feet. Well, that's OK, as long as they all do it.

The problem here is that that planes have poor _relative_ performance. Planes that should be armor-star slugs like the F4U are spritely waifes that outturn a Spitfire.

It's fine if they're all bad - as long as they are all _equally_ bad. This is simply not the case in the game today. The strengths and weaknesses of the planes simply aren't there in the game.

quote:

---

Any FM based on just those specs is not really a "flight" model, but a "combat" model... and even then it is not a realistic combat model, just one that leads to good game play.

---

Half the planes can't even take off - even some with two props pull off the runway. I'm all for rubbing down the rough edges if it makes the game a little more approachable for the average user, but it seems to me the planes are going the other direction. Tried flying the Seafire in the patch?

quote:

---

than SDOE still will have way more to offer IMO.

---

But that's just it, everyone has to get out of it what they want.

Heck, anything else is work!

posted 03-17- 03:07 PM               

Why would I want to build an aircraft without using OPS? Thats like diggin a 6ft hole with a table spoon, use the tools available! thing is though, when it comes to IL2, we don't even get given the table spoon.

So, I'm an elietist, I know Open Plane code pretty damn good in some areas and the possibilities it has that haven't been implemented yet, and I like to show it with things I'm building now or have done in the past, I'm an artist and I like to feel appreciated and have my work liked by a large audience most artists do.

Where you're just so wrong about me actually being elietist is in the fact that there's nothing I've learned that I haven't been willing and tried to share with everybody here so that more people can do it themselves and even advance it more, an elietist keeps it to himself, shows off and wont tell a soul how to achieve the results.. oh, is that like telling people "OK, you can make a model, and if I think it's good enough I'll add an FM and DM to it, I'd like to let you add the FM, but it's just so complicated you'd never be able to do it right".. where have I heard that before....

I guess I also hope that in 3 years I wont still be working on SDOE (I rarely play SDOE, I just build for it, it's that elietist thing), but that said, to me it will be a sad day when I'm not, like the passing of a good friend, I've learnt so much from SDOE, only a year ago 3D modeling and OPS really baffled me, I've gone from nothing to a full blown 2d/3d artist working on a new game currently in developement, so regardless of you considering me elietst, I'm damn proud of myself and I trust in my ability to problem solve and work outside the mold.

If people here in any way look up to me for what I've done in the past then thats the biggest compliment to me. My attitude wont change and since I get on very well with most if not all the people here (if not all the time ) I don't think I need to.

Now away with the fun, once I feel I have to defend myself personaly this topic better get moved to flame wars PDQ

posted 03-17- 03:21 PM            

You said it not me.

BTW, what ground breaking sim are you working on? Maybe we can build stuff for free there too

posted 03-17- 03:28 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Go24Go:
[B]Nat,
You are a shinning example of the "Hey look at me" BS that sucks here.B]

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Who said what? The fact that I'm against it doesn make me it, and neither does you saying it.

posted 03-17- 03:29 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Sv:
You miss the point that other sims can not do the FM as well as OpenPlane. This is not because they are dumb, it is because their vision has a focus on thing outside of the flight model fidelity, and this takes dev time and CPU cycles away from the physics...

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I somehow must have mis-read your last post - this is exactly what I was saying but it seems I thought you were disagreeing.

quote:

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I do agre, however, that the work we are missing most is the relative FM between the aircraft that make game play fun. But this is just because we don't have enough people...

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I can't speak for anyone else, but for me - an admitted FM anal-retentive jerk - the problem is that I find the system unapprochable. There's SO MUCH to learn before you can do something as simple as move a gun that it has no quick feedback.

I've tried to fix up the He 100 on two occasions, each time I spend several hours just getting the files arranged before I can even start working. I just don't have the time, and I get bored too easily.

OPS made it all _possible_ at least - prior to that I would have never even looked. I just wish the OPS was even better - the ability to easily move things to known locations for instance, or adjust angles easily.

quote:

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we do a HUGE amount of relative FM testing with the WWI planes... testing A vs. B, B. vs C, and A vs. C, etc.

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And it shows! The WWI pack is superb. it's the prime example of what the engine can do when the people involved are dedicated.

quote:

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SDOE did not "die" because of its open architecture, it died thanks to many factors including terrible marketing, late release, dumbed down FM's on shipping planes, and hitting the market at teh height of WW2 saturation.

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Yup.

quote:

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An Open based combat flight sim CAN work, and WILL work... but it will indeed take clever planning... it does not happen by itself.

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You need a couple of groups. A historical nerd like me comes in handy. You need some artists for sure, but we have plenty of those lately considering all the excellent skins and such we're seeing. Someone to decide what's needed an what isn't is good too, otherwise you can lose focus.

You need management. That's the long and short of it.

posted 03-17- 03:41 PM            

Me, Me and more of me.

Look at what I can do, I'm great!

If I cant do it there it sucks.

Again, no one cares what you can or can not do. The original post was to let people know that there is an opportunity to build for another sim, which was imediately met with cynicism and bad will. Thats the way anything new has been met by this community(in general,not all).

If Storm Bird will harbor some of the same "BS" then I'm afraid that many will look it over just as they did SDOE

posted 03-17- 03:56 PM               

Ram your annoying little mouth further up Olegs ass for all I care.

posted 03-17- 04:16 PM            

How many other foul words do you know?

This will get moved to flame wars of your own accord.

You are nothing more than an hypocrite. A childish one at that. You seem very self-conscious of your work, so maybe its not as good as you believe it to be.

You shouldn't worry so much about what people think about your "work". SO WHAT! If you truly had a passion for it, you could give a rip about what anyone thinks about your stuff.

Perhaps if you pulled your head out of your OWN ASS, you'd be able to see that there are plenty of other great opportunities, aside from OP to make good sim with.

Again your attitude and childish response only solidifies my opinion (like you and assholes, everyone has one) that not very many people here on this board will give a new idea or concept a fair shake. This is without the sim even being in beta yet. B17-2, while it didnt turn out, was met in the very same manner.

So SDOE community members, if Nat is truly speaking for you, then I'm truly sorry. Its to bad that lively debate on new topics is met with such agnst.

Nat, do you need a tissue? =P

posted 03-17- 04:41 PM            

After re-reading your amusing post again, I felt compelled to post again. No time did I slam anyone or anything, till you flapped your foul trap.

Being a former member of this once great community, I have also enjoyed many of the great things that have been done here. What I still see as "BS" is the way people here treat new ideas.

SV participated in a debate of views and opinions, you on the other hand, be littled anything to do with working on anything for IL2. That is one sided and "elitist" to think that you are to good to have anything to do with it.

I will say it again. Open Plane is a great system. I'm fully aware of what it can and can not do. I have chosen not to take part in it. To much whining and bitching goes on for my liking. Thats my opinion. Slam me for having one, if it really makes you feel better. If anything it gets you going.

Another tissue? =P

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posted 03-17- 05:09 PM               

Until now the discussion was nice but I think you need to go to Flame Wars Section. It's getting hot here.
Why Go24Go and Nat don't duel online? in SDOE of course