posted 02-27- 12:20 AM               

And what do you think they really should teach at schools? Im sorry but I dont see how to solve quadratic equations by graphing is going to help me in the future...

posted 02-27- 12:17 PM            

CRACK, get to work on them quadradic equations
boy!!!!

My father's quadradic equation lecture when,
as a young man, I asked the same question.

posted 02-27- 01:59 PM               

Example to prove my point:
Job employer: "Oh I see you took astro physics, we will hire you as a computer C++ programmer now that I see youve had this experience."

I mean honestly... Im not saying cut out everything. We need the history and the English so we can read and write and not make the same misstakes... We here in America should have a school system that starts to single you out into what field of work you are going to do before the collage grade level. I know Germany has something similar to this presently.... It may not be AS drastic, but its still the basic concept.

posted 02-27- 02:27 PM            

Trust me, I hate taking stupid classes too. I always wonder the same thing when I'm sleeping in Spanish class everyday. Aye Caramba. But the ends justify the means.

posted 02-27- 02:38 PM            

Well, yes, many countries have education systems tailored to what you plan to do with your life later on... and many countries also decide for you (based on what you excell at in school) what you will be educated in for a career path. Some countries even decide if you are suited to even move on from grade school level education to high school (if you arent' then you go immediately to non-skilled labor jobs) and the same about whether or not you will be allowed to go to college....

Do you really want that? The idea behind our "well rounded" system is quite simple. You may decide in 5th grade that you want to be an Astronaut which would mean you would need to focus on the sciences... but then in 7th grade you may decide to be a writer... well, now you need to be schooled in literature... and in 9th grade you may change your mind again! Well, you can do this in our system because you don't have to truly decide what you want to do until you go to college and pick a major (and not even then really). Grades 1-12 are meant to give you a broad enough knowledge base to be able to go into any specific field you want to when you reach college. It is also designed to give the people who won't go directly to college a well enough rounded education that they will be able to learn new skills in just about any field very quickly. Now, these days the system is not working too well in many states... but that is another story.

So, the reason you learn how to solve a quadratic equation is that you may decide to become a structural engineer...where you will need that skill base to build upon. You take bio or chem because you may decide to become a doctor or chemist and you will need that base to build from again... etc. with the rest of your various, un-interrelated classes.

-Stark

[This message has been edited by Stark (edited 02-27-2001).]

Good grief... I made typos while correcting my typos!

posted 02-27- 03:55 PM               

DanW will be surprised how beneficial his Spanish language requirement will be. Not only in speaking Spanish when he really needs to, but someday he may want to really learn a foreign language, and having studied one foreign language will really help him in learning another. Personally, I learned more about English grammar by studying Spanish than all the English courses I ever took.

The single college course that benefited me the most was a two unit Art Appreciation course that opened a whole new world to me. Until then, Art was a boring and "useless" subject. It enabled me to thoroughly enjoy and appreciate the countless museums and art exhibits I have seen over the years, and to appreciate the diversity of our world's cultures and it's history. So you never know what a particular course will inspire you to do.

IMO there is no such thing as "useless" knowledge. It may be boring at the time you learn it but you never know when it will help you be a better person.

posted 02-27- 10:38 PM               

Oh BTW, I can name just about every command from any game Ive played by memory and every German AC used at the outbreak of WWII... But thats only because Ive done it some 50 trillion times already.

posted 02-28- 09:56 AM               

If you decide to go into programming and would like to work on 3D games, quadratic equations are kindergarten compared to what youll need to know.

A lot of courses seem silly, but the broader your horizons the more people you can talk with because you have some common ground.

You enjoy SDOE, yet most people would find your knowledge of history and aircraft quite useless. However, you don't consider it a waste of time.

Just trust this fact, because it comes from experience. At different points in your life you will find yourself using knowledge you thought was completely useless at the time the school system stuffed it into your head.

Much of this useless stuff was required learning by our forefathers and led to such documents as the Magna Carta and Declaration of Independence. These documents find their roots in the Bible and the writings of many great philosophers going all the way back to Ancient Greece.

I used to thing plotting vectors was useless, but I find it comes in handy to be able to visualise these vectors when I'm on someone's tail in SDOE Also this ability allowed me to navigate in the middle of over half a dozen cars spinning and braking on the freeway. I was the only vehicle in the bunch that didn't get hit or hit someone else.

I hated health class and anatomy, but I use it all the time in teaching Karate classes and getting people to use the right muscles. Heck I've evn used Einstein's E=mc2 equation to explain to students why developing speed is more imprtant than developing strength. Want to take about a real world application of physics, geometry and trig? The martial arts will sure help you understand them and vice versa.

Lessee- English was another subject I disliked, yet I was glad I had to take it when I was asked to write articles for a computer magazine.

And chemistry- geez don't even ask how much I've wound up using that knowledge, I'd put you to sleep if I haven't already.

As for plotting equations, it helps develop an intuitive feel as to what will happen when you alter the equation. You can make a judgement of what kind of changes you need to make rather tan easter egging it until you get the results you want.

posted 02-28- 01:04 PM               

And FU about the spelling Mir

The fact is, why can't we find able people to work? Becuase they were spending way too much time learning those things that are mostly useless today.

If we had more time, like a thousand years in our life, it would be worth it. But we need to make trade-offs.

Why learn advanced math when students don't learn how to spec write? Why learn "social studies" when students have no idea what happened in WW2? Why learn about how conservatives are evil when students don't now how to use a computer?

The basics you will use every day in 99% of all higher end jobs you don't even touch upon in school. They never explain the real world, why???

I will tell you, teachers have no fucking clue about the real world. this is true! They are TEACHERS! They have never been in the corporate work place...

I know a teacher who just got his first "real" job, a sales position- he crumbled in a few months and is teaching again... hopefully enlightened by the experience. My friend took the same job to get out of shipping boxes at UPS, he is now doing great as a corporate sales manager

I don't ask that teachers know all about the real world, but they need to get off of their high-horse... and just be honest with the limits of their knowledge... try to help instead of threaten.

The biggest thing missing in education is a connection (partnership) with the real world. This shapes a young student's mind in a most beneficial way...

I would to have love to know what REALLY goes on at the office... my dad never told me, I never knew until my first job.

Math is great if you want to have the option of doing a career that will need it (and that is NOT computing/information technology) But learning to use a computer, and Word, etc. is as big a staple today as reading and writing.

Knowing about the economy is key, and about corporate structure, and stocks, and investment rounds, and marketing, and profit, cost of goods, pay scales.... Why these things? Every company must deal with these issues, and EVERY employee is intwined with these things that are not taught in school...

And so much more...

I agree with you ArgonV, I did when I was in school, and I do today after ownwing many businesses and wearing many hats in the professional world... don't worry, stay your ground.

As long as you are ambitious, you will kick ass... we won't give up the fight.

But if you are NOT ambatious, look out! You need to lay back and join the world of slackers... where people "take care of you" like baby sitters... maybe like to live like that, but not me. I want to be in charge of my own destiny... I want to test my ideas... I don't want people like the teachers threatening me as they pretend to know about things... you must take responsibility for your life, it is NO ONE's fault but you if you fail...

But I respect those that are not ambitious, they are wonderful people... so long as they do not try to pull me into their set-up. Let me be free to take risks and live life, just let me be!!! Let me prove myself to ME, not to the teachers... because, in the end, howework brings no value to the world. At best, it teaches discapline... but there is not enough time in life to learn discapline while not also bringing value... this is a Newt concept... (I had it first, in 4th grade) - you must be productive while you learn... not only because it brings value, but becasue you KNOW that you are being educated in reality when you are productive.

Learn on your own, and from great individuals - DO keep role models around you! Have heros! They will make you great,,, dream about being them, imagine... fantisize, then relize!

posted 02-28- 01:28 PM               

I cant help but look around and feel pity at these mindless school drones some call students. They strive so hard to make that A (Or in some cases not) and really never stop and think about the "big picture". And yes most do live in a false world. I also cant stand those students who spend every waking moment studying JUST so they can make that A. They just think life is all about the grade. Those type of people will waste their lives away... And so what if they do get those jobs that pay top dollar. If they dont enjoy their life in the end or enjoy these teenage years, then whats the point in that?

posted 02-28- 02:39 PM               

I couldn't wait to get out of school and had no desire to go to college. Still don't want to go.

I lucked out in a way. When I was looking for a job out of high school it during a time when you could still join a firm at the lower levels (a crewman in a survey crew in my case) and work my way up the ladder to a managment in graphics positon as I have today

This is hardly the case today. That was at least a generation ago. ( I'm 37)

Today you need a degree to pump gas. In this town (College Station, Texas) The home of Texas A&M University, if you don't have degree, you don't have a job. Why should these companies hire a non-degreed person when there are a thousand with degrees standing at the door.

It sucks I know, but they will look rite past you, even if you have loads of experience to hire a kid fresh from A&M.

To sum it up, Do the math!

posted 02-28- 03:22 PM               

I'm not questioning your path.

Ah yes, high school, glory days, cheerleader dates, drugs, sex, rock and roll. Parachute pants, narrow ties, sunglasses at night.

You could have as much fun, and as much of anything else you wanted and no one cared.

sigh

Back in the day

Gunner

posted 02-28- 05:10 PM               

As far as teachers not knowing anything about the real world Sv-- you are dead wrong. It was that way when you and I were in school, but things are changing pretty quick. Why? Well at least here in New York because of teacher shortages. I am 30 and have only been teaching full time for 3 years....so where was I before. You name it I did it....my bachelors is in Zoology, so I did research for a few years....got to hang out at Miramar for a while when I was doing that....nothing quite like standing in a field at the end of a flightline taking decibel readings with a Tomcat or Hornet flying only a few hundred feet over your head

I know of many instances where a professional scientist or historian has gone into teaching and man-- what an experience that is when you are fortunate to have someone so knowledgable teach you what they know....

I worked for Fed Ex for a while and could have probably done pretty well climbing the ladder there....but it got boring. So I went and got my masters in teaching and here I am-- making close to 40K in my second year....why? I teach biology, chemistry, and psychology....and how do I know how to teach all this stuff....diversity. It is not such a bad thing.....I don't know how it is in Texas or New Hampshire, but here in NY, most courses end in a regents standardized test-- one of the worst ideas ever AFAIAC....but it's what they pay me for-- so I teach all year to prep my kids for the test....I am not gonna say the education system isn't screwed up.....as I teacher- I see how screwed up it is everyday....but I also see what happens to those without it....not pretty.

Argon....while you may not see it now....this is all worth it. You will use some (probably not all...but some) of what you learn now later in life...I can tutor now in just about any subject because of my diverse background....and I make close to $40/hour doing that....so don't tell me it's not worth it....parents think it is anyways....

BTW-- there are courses now on life skills (balancing checkbooks, etc) and they are becoming more prevalent....but there will always be lit and calculus and all those other subjects....enjoy it while you can....

------------------

Brought to you by the campaign for a better Dauntless!

Jeeves =FC=

posted 02-28- 05:12 PM            

That was about the biggest load of worthless bullshit that I have ever read in my life.

Give me a break.

Why must you always tie your ridiculous mega-conservative beliefs into every topic? Do you REALLY think that the public school system was created by liberals to strike a blow to conservatism?

Lay off of the crack...please.

Try doing a job search for top paying jobs...then look at the 'requirements' field. Find some that don't say BA/BS or MS required....That's what I thought.

posted 02-28- 05:32 PM            

That I gotta hear.

posted 02-28- 06:00 PM               

There needs to be more "real world" classes in high school. Other countries have this already. Why do you think the general U.S. population is behind in education compaired to the rest of the world? Because we get taught useless CRAP! Oh I know I'll use SOME of what Ive learned in school. But 60+ % of it goes down the drain in the end.

Oooo Wow! 40k a year?!?!? Thats AMAZING! NOT! My parents get paid 80+ k a year to sit at a desk and manage a bunch of chemists, PR, enviormental safety and to crunch a few numbers every once in a while on a calculator... (A buisness trip here and there too) Ive asked them and all the math they did in high school and college was USELESS to them in the work place. All it did was give them a Masters etc... (I forget how many types of degrees they both have) But once the Masters was had, all that CRAP they had to learn just went down the drain.

posted 02-28- 06:20 PM               

How can you laugh at $40K/yr. after just 3 years experience? Plus Jeeves only has to work 9 month's a year and probably has better benefits than your parents. Ask them how much they made after 3 years in their career. How many hours do they put in? On a per hour basis I bet Jeeves makes almost as much as they do.

posted 02-28- 07:55 PM               

But when I look around at all of my family and friends, what I have is considered to be a very successful job. My best friend in college (who just so happens to now be my brother-in-law) has a job as a drug rep with Pfizer (yes-- Pfizer of Viagra )....and he brings home 60K w/o his commission....but that compant owns him....everywhere he goes, he has at least one article of clothing or napkins or whatever with Pfizer's logo on it....not for me.

I choose to live my days teaching the youth of America....and try to transfer my knowledge over the constant whine of "What am I ever gonna do with this?" "Why do I have to know this stuff?"...and yet- their spelling and knowledge of the world is atrocious! You will see Argon. Mark my words....check back with me in 5 years....not everyone has it as rosy as your parents. I will try not to say I told you so LOL

------------------

Brought to you by the campaign for a better Dauntless!

posted 02-28- 08:18 PM               

By the way DanW, thos job requirements are pure bull shit intended to scare off punks like you who have no guts. Every job I have gotten has required at least a college degree if not a masters or above. I never graduated college, and there is NO education is on my resume. (but I agree that a degree makes life allot easier... and is really required for many kinds of work and in certain companies).

But be careful about comparing pay rates to education level. Some studies are starting to show that it is to your financial advantage to not go to college... college is VERY expensive. Most of the businesses I have started cost only 2 years college expense. If you are an opertunist, and very ambistious (and smart) - then it makes more sense to invest in yourself and not the "establishment." Keep the money... money and time are your recources to success... give away your money and your time to sschool and you have lost the race before it has started. (but this only goes for so few people today, it is sad to me - where are all the great men today? They have no confidence anymore, no spirit)

If you love school, become a lawyer or a musician - these are two GREAT educations today for sure. Doctors used to be in that group, but not anymore thanks to the socialization of medicine pattern.

For some professions, school pretty much kicks ass- but this is at the college level. At the high school level there is not much content, just a prison for young adults. The great people are trapped there within, and they are given the least care.

posted 02-28- 09:18 PM               

And I will take a Smokey-esque view here as well. This issue (and this is the only issue for me) goes beyond reason and has become a war for me. This is a bad attitude for me to have, and I know it, but I just can not help myself. Maybe it is because I am bitter - and maybe it is because I am spiteful. But I rather think it is because I have shell-shock. I thank God every day that I am not in school anymore. Though I was living large with my friends and having a GREAT time personally, I was in constant conflict between my ambitions for my life and my daily waking reality of school and all that my failure there would mean for my future.

I love when I have a meeting at work that is very tense, maybe it has been 3 hours and allot of passion about hard decisions. I love to break the tense feeling in the room with this: (I just sigh, then stand up, turn around, face the room again - like I have an announcement and then... ) "Well.... at least we're not in school."

All the stupid judgment is gone... no longer are unqualified people judging you, people who often know 10 times less than you do. Imagine this picture: pick your hero here... imagine him being criticized in 10th grade... in a subject of the field of his mastery... you need to paint your own picture because my heroes make you laugh... but if you do it right you will see my point - you will see the ridiculous picture!

And DanW, your are posting proof of one of my major quarrels with the school system. You look at the jobs and see that they all require degrees, but NEVER do you be a real man and but your life where your mouth is... and START YOUR OWN job. There is ABSOLUTELY NO educational requirement to start your own business or enterprise. Teaching is far from the most sacred job, the most sacred job is the one you create for yourself. These are the people who up the ante, you don't want me at your company? I will CRUSH you! How DARE you not want me!!! I will make my own company and defeat you, THEN you will see!!!! This is the fuel of great things to come!

Look at how Bill destroyed IBM!!! Not even monopolies stand in the way of the great man... the great men know that all things are possible and there is no one to blame in life but oneself.

And the liberals say that the great men merely won life's lottery, and that the poor are held back... a lie! An un-American lie!

If you want to understand what fuels my strong conservative views - we are in the heart now! If you take away the freedom that allows this final escape clause of life... the ability to prove one's self... then you kill man forever. The spirit is gone, and the flame is almost impossible to relight. Once man lives like animals... like an ant colony.. then he is in a hard stop... communism and nazism turn humanity into ant colonies. Social Darwinism need not exists... it is an illusion perpetuated by a stifling of individuality... Americanism! We are the free... still... but so many don't understand that they are free. The are imprisoned by their ideas... they are self censoring... like happens so much in Europe today. Where are the English? How could the English lose this magic? It is not lost... it is with is in America, but it is starving for vitality. Bush, my man Bush... he is tapping into the American vitality at the root! He will never create global piece, solve world hunger, or keep a recession from happening - but he will raise the tide of our very human existence, and none of you will even sense it! It is a tide... and if you do not look every second, it happens without you noticing! Just one moment you look, and it is here - the wave is on its way to be...

But this is just a TV commercial to you DanW? My passions here are all fake - or mindless? Can you will me away? I feel powerful... I am alive here... but you do not fight.. you counter in evasiveness... but I long for the clash of the metal! Your ideas seem to be trapped in the instant - with no life span beyond the instant they were typed...

posted 02-28- 09:32 PM            

BAHAHAHAHA!! That's funny. Punks with no guts..lol, and you are how old? 28? *snicker*
I'm sure you know a lot about guts.

Sorry bud, I've been turning down job after job because I WANT to go to school. Scare people off...hehe..

Yep, college is expensive. But it can be done. You just have to do it right. I don't know what studies you have been reading. Probably from the same book that told you teachers were evil human beings. <---- bad sentence.

"give away your money and your time to sschool and you have lost the race before it has started."

I'm sorry, but I have more respect for some kid that busts his ass and gets good grades in engineering or computer science that somebody who borrows some money and gets a business going. This school shit is very hard sometimes and it takes extreme dedication to finish. How is learning giving away your time?

"I never graduated college, and there is NO education is on my resume. "

That's quite obvious. It's "have never graduated from college"...basic grade school grammar. Maybe you are right. You WERE shafted by your teachers.

Argon seems to be an impressionable young person. Everyone in this thread except YOU sees the value of education. You make up rants and raves about it being a waste of time. Sorry Mr. Business Guy, but I have NEVER met a single person with an advanced degree that has regretted it. No, I'm not talking about any liberal arts pussy, I'm taking anyone with a CS, Engineering or MIS type degree.

posted 02-28- 09:44 PM               

No school is not evil. Yes alot of what school teaches (or tries to) is CRAP. Yes for a majority and No for a small percentage one does need an education to get ahead in life. Yes everyone wishes the school system could be better and No its not going to happen over night. Yes teaching is, in realization, a crappy job. Yes some people like it. (God knows why...) Yes Sv is an extremist. And Yes alot of B.S. has ben said by both sides. But you know what? Im still the winner here.

posted 02-28- 10:05 PM               

quote:

---

That's quite obvious.

---

Oh, your a fucking genious DanW, what writing! You take my breath away!

posted 02-28- 10:07 PM               

Every job you attmpt to get was created by someone... who are you to mock the business people? And I am not for the busines people, I am for the opportunists... to them we owe the greatest debt.

What would you do with you sacred education if there we no jobs to have?