posted 02-26- 08:11 PM            

-=Remember: Eagles may soar but weasels never get sucked into jet intakes.=-

posted 02-26- 08:24 PM            

I can send a bunch of democrats to FL and
Gore would have won. The point is the re-
count should have been done by the county
election boards as prescribed by FL law. Bush's
republican buddys on the US supreme court
should have stayed out of it. Bush is still
an illigitemate president.

BTW, I thought you guys didn't like hand counts.
If this is legitimate it's too bad Bush was
afraid to have a hand count. Instead he
chose to hide behind the court.

posted 02-26- 08:55 PM            

Personally, I don't think it's anything to weap about. I think it's good that they actually counted all the votes. Of course it won't sway my opinion that Bush is still court appointed...lol, but at least we know who 'would' have won had things not gotten out of hand.

posted 02-26- 10:18 PM               

It is fair to feel that the US Supreme Court made a bad decision, but is more wrong not to trust them. I feel the Florida Supreme Court made a TERRIBLE decision, but I respected it, I trust them.

It would behoove you to honor our most high court, who are you to challenge them? Question them, yes! But never challenge... give great talk about why they made a wrong decision in light of the US Constitution, but do not question the constitutionality of their power.

posted 02-26- 10:37 PM            

Bush recieved an inaccurate vote count and
was appointed by a court that had no business
doing the appointing. An illigetamate process
that produced an illigetamate president.

As it turns out, if this hand recount by the
Miami Hearld is at all valid, the FL supreme
court should have been followed. Then there
would have been a legitimate recount and we
would have a legitimate president.

I'm sorry SV the US supreme court doesn't
have my respect anymore. I consider any
decision they make on the same level as a
statement coming from the RNC, which as you
may imagine is not very high in my book.

I really don't know how you guys can say "Oh
boy, our guy won, we finally got rid of those
evil democrats." When this process was allowed
to play out the way it did. Votes not counted.
People not allowed to vote. Voting machines
that don't work. Where is your anger? I think
if this were colonial times there might even
be some shooting because of an election like
this.

Look to the future. What if the next election
is close? What if the next 10 elections are
close? Is this the way it should be done?
One side litigate to the supreme court and
whoever has the most judges wins. It seems
to me that presidential elections have been
taken out of the hands of the voter.

posted 02-27- 12:14 AM               

All you can do is be sad and give up... the things you had faith in let you down, and there is nothing you can point to inthe future now, it is hopeless.

If Gore would have won becuase of the Florida Supreme Court's equally bad ruling, I would have accepted it... in fact I do accept that as being the correct valid outcome - even though I disagree with their dicision as much as you disgree with the US Supreme Court.

But I can point to the fact that jutice was served, I just got the losing hand this time - most of the time there are two sides, and we all get our change to win and lose.

My world is happy, because law and order ruled over chaos and violance. You seem to want chaos and violance to get your way... your emotion gets the better of you... trust me, it would break my heart not to have Bush in as much as it breaks yours that Gore is not in.

Just because the ruling does not go your way does not make it injust, rather it just makes it "incorrect" from your view.

Your would could only be happy if there was one viewpoint in life... one vision of how the world should be. Well there is not, and at least I am living proof of someone who has a very different world view than you do. You can chose to fight me, or defer that conflict to a system based on rational and critical thinking.

Sometimes there are no easy answers... and not everyone will be happy with the results...

But the system woked as it must... any other path leads to mob rule... to emotion over well thought out plans... we can all be happy that we have a way of dealing with differing opinions, because thus is the world made.

You can (and should) believe that the ruling was bad, and concieved for the wrong reasons, but thes system does not, and could never take such things into account. Our system is built in the trust of man, and even single men.. it is the only way lest you hire the most high baby sitter and give in to either dictatorship or communism...

posted 02-27- 06:33 AM            

All your spell checker all belong to us.

Where is Jerry at? I figured Ward Cleaver would have jumped all over this thread by now. Two of the Limbaugh Cheerleaders are here, where is the third?

posted 02-27- 09:49 AM            

Afterall, there are people who are still VERY upset at the turn of events. It's not just something that you can turn your back on. Sure, YOU can forget because your hero won. Others, are still hostile towards the whole scenario..whether they were Gore supporters or not. Some may think justice was not served and they have every right to believe so. Bush held all the right cards this time.

The worst thing this country can do is turn its back on what happened in the courts. Something needs to happen to prevent this fiasco from ever happening again. I'm sure the last thing people like Smokey want is violence and chaos.

It goes around comes around. I remember you bitching a saying America was going to hell in a hand basket when Microsoft was ordered to be broken up by Jackson. A lot of you guys also bitched about Slick Willie and how he was such a criminal and disgrace to the White House. Well, now the shoe is on the other foot. Lots of people think George W. Bush is an illigitimate president and rightly so. Telling them to 'get over it. there's no hope for you' is an insult.

You may hold him high in mighty in your world of Kings and Honor, but to a lot of Americans he has as much credibility as Jesse Jackson...ZERO. He is already starting to show why he recieved the highest amount of campaign donations in history. He was elected for one reason...the super rich. He is showing his roots.

posted 02-27- 12:10 PM            

Ugh.

-Stark

posted 02-27- 01:12 PM               

I have never in my life encountered anyone so closed minded. What a miserable life you must leave.

posted 02-27- 01:55 PM               

It seems my argument is several levels above yours... I am happy that smokey is upset, and am only disappointed with his conclusions and logical argument. I would be very upset if Gore won, but just the emotion of "upset" is not very important in the end... what is important is the detailed reasoning... I would be upset because a judge made an incorrect ruling according to my world views. I could hate the judge, and think he is stupid, or even politically motivated. But what I can't do is blame Gore or the system itself... this is a very different conclusion.

Your criticism of my post seems to completely bypass the heart of the matter.

I WOULD be VERY upset if Microsoft gets broken up... and I do think it will hurt this country. But I don't think there is any evil in it, I just disagree with the argument that MS is a monopoly... and it is my duty to express that with high passion. But for me to feel that Netscape is illegitimate just because MS loses is wrong, and shows that my real complaint is not with any one specific to this case, but rather something wrong with the system, or man himself.

There really is no world were everyone is right... and I don't see how smokey's view allows for a world where people have different opinions on things... there is only one pure "right" and "wrong." Each side thinks it is right, so in the end, Smokey is right, and the rest of us are evil bastards.

Once again, it is the assumptions that we disagree about really, not the outcome. This is a key concept and opens the door to healthy debate.

Smokey, are you really so worried that Bush is going to do what you suggest? Do you really think Bush master-minded his illegal assent to the presidency? IN the end, there was little Gore or Bush could do but wait for the outcome... I still don't see how you can possibly blame Bush. Do you really think Bush should have stepped down when he was ahead? Do you think he should have fought FOR Gore? Do you really think that Gore would have fought for Bush if the role was reversed?

posted 02-27- 02:13 PM            

You guys argued for States' rights in the Confederate Flag issue...then cheered the US Supreme Court for overturning the Florida Supreme Court's decision. Granted, the Florida decision affects the state of the entire free world, but can you see the contradiction. You yourself even posted that you were highly upset that Bush had appealed to the Supreme Court.

YOUR world would have been turned completely upside down if Gore would have won. Don't bullshit me either...but you guys would have been completely hostile to say the least. So why bash on Smokey?

posted 02-27- 02:37 PM            

I don't think Bush masterminded anything.
Heh, I don't think he ever will either.
Sorry, couldn't resist.

What pisses me off is the process prescribed
by the constitution was not followed. This
is, as I understand it, to let the state
decide for whom the state's electorial votes
shall be cast. The FL legislature had passed
laws governing the election. These laws
provided for a hand recounting of the votes
if requested. The hand recounting of the
votes was to be done by the election commission
in each county. FL law also allowed 1 week to
complete all recounts.

That seems simple enough to me. I think the
1 week deadline is a little short but still
doable. Maybe it's a holdover from when FL
had a smaller population.

Then Bush, through his lawers, tried every
trick in the book to stall past the 1 week
deadline. Once the deadline had passed then
they started arguing that you couldn't do
recounts because the deadling had passed.
I do blame Bush, I think he should have
shut up and let the hand recount proceed
with the stipulation that instead of recounting
4 counties, recount the entire state as Gore
offered to do.

It further pisses me off that after the FL
supreme court made a decision in determining
FL law that the US supreme court stepped in
where they didn't belong. If FL couldn't
decide the disposition of their electorial
votes then the FL legislature was set to
decide. I didn't like this but it was part
of the process. Also, I believe there was
a scenario where the US congress could have
decided the FL outcome. In either case those
Senators and Representatives, at either state
or federal level, would have to answer to
the voters for their actions. The US supreme
court stepped in and superceded all of this
and effectively picked our 43 president.
These justices don't have to answer to anybody.

This is the last thing our founding fathers
wanted. The judicial branch picking the head
of the legislative branch. It goes against
all the checks and balances set up in the
constitution. Now the prescident has been
established. Presidents pick supreme court
judges and supreme court judges pick
presidents. Voters bypassed.

Maybe you guys are ok with having your right
to vote reduced to where it doesn't mean
anything but I don't like it. Just because
it happened in Fl instead of Illinois or
anywhere else doesn't mean it couldn't. I
punch my vote on the exact same machine that
was in question in FL.

BTW, Dan, thanks. These guys are quick to
point out that I only see one viewpoint and
to a certain extent they are probably right.
They don't have much elbow room in that area
either.

posted 02-27- 02:53 PM            

Because I could take Smokey down to the beach, point at the ocean, tell him that it's water and he would say it's not.

I'm sick of trying to convince you guys. Reason means nothing to you. Laws are inconvenient hurdles to get around.

Common sense is totally out of date for you.

Enjoy the speech tonight.

The man giving the speech is deserving of your attention and respect. He is not going to lie to your face because he thinks your a moron.

Sv,
Who am I to challege them? That really steams my clams!

A tax paying citizen, that's who. They are not royalty and none are above challeging! Particularly when they make a clearly illegle decision as they did.

As I said, Enjoy the speech tinght.

Prop out!

posted 02-27- 02:55 PM               

Make sure this one pays you.

posted 02-27- 03:34 PM            

The US supreme court effectively elected the
43rd president at that point.

As for the rest of it you just don't have it
right. I suggest you go back and read what
happened. Gore tried to stay out of the
courts. He even offered to hand recount the
whole state and both sides drop all court
cases. Bush wouldn't agree to it. It was Bush
who kept running to the US supreme court.

posted 02-27- 03:59 PM               

You guys are to effected by the '60s. Sometimes it is best not to question authority, espeically when it is supreme authority.

Hey DanW, I WAS agianst the US Spreme Court even when Bush looks like he was losing, I was ready to accept it, even if I disagreed. In fact, I would rather that Gore won because it is more important to me that the consitution is upheld to my way of thinking than who wins the presidency.

Here is my argument DanW, you can easily disagree, but there is plenty of logic there - you just don;t get it... that is my fault for not expressing it well enough. LEt me state it more logicaly:

Smokey feels that the constitution was not upheld, even though, it cleary was. By his argument, the constitution was not upheld because someone ruled contary to what he believes in. The US Supreme Court had just as much constitutional right to make their ruling as Florida Supreme Court did, there is NO difference. For Fl. Supereme Court to over turn a fair and just Fl. Local Court ruling is just like the US Supreme Court over ruling the Fl. Supereme Court.

In the end, I think it is "wrong" for the US Supreme Court to over-turn a local state court on state issues... BUT it is NOT unconstitutional! So you see, I disagree WITH THE CASE but NOT with the system or the US Constitution.

Smokey, however, feels that a "wrong" court ruling is, in essense, unconstitutional!!! Smokey tries to will away the fact that rulings are up to the judges. Smokey believes (as I gather from his aurguent) that there is only one correct and constitutional ruling for each case.

So I have to assume for this that Smokey believes that either the constitution is wrong and needs to be updated, or that our system does not implement the constitution.

Smokey demonstates this by calling Buch "illigetimate." That implies that he is elected outside the constitution, but I see NO evidence of that fact. If Gore would have won, I would see him as legitimate, how could I not? I would be very mad and disagre with the judge's ruling - his interpretation of the constitution, but I would be forced to accept it.

My aurgument is parodoxical in a way though, because in theory a judge can rule against the constitution... but this can only happen in an extent limited by reasonable aurgument. In my strong opinion, both sides had valid strong arguments for their cases.

This is where smokey and I diverge, I can see Gore's side, Smokey can not see Bush's side.

In the end, I believe in Gore's argument when it comes to the US Supremem Court. BUT I do NOT believe that Fl. Supreme Court acted correctly - they, IMO, legislated from the bench. BUT I think their aurgument was strong enough to be "legitimate" in my eyes.

I think BUsh should have won by my way of viewing things... IMO Gore is the one who pushed leagaly to gain more votes. I have the same argument against Gore that Smokey has against Bush.

When two people have a disagreement, the court system settles it. It seems to me that Smokey expects the people to settle it themselves!!! Why should either one give up? They should argue their case, and let the courts decide. While no one wants a court case, thank God they are an option of last resort!

Smokey should be mad and upset, and maybe dedicate his life to fixing voting machines and attacking the US supreme court judges for being political activists. BUT, Smokey should accept Bush as lagitimate if he believes in the constitution. Just because a judge makes a poor ruling does NOT invalidate the US Constitution, nor that which it creates- such as the Bush presidency.

Suggesting that Bush should have left what I consider to be illegal vote counts continue is just like me saying that Gore should have not taken the court actions that he did. Why should Gore force people to re-count any more than Bush should force people not to re-count? Once again, it seems like the root of the problem is that Smokey does not allow for their to be two sides... there is just right and wrong, and he happens to be always on the right side. This frustrates me, why should I always be on the "wrong" side? Am I evil?

posted 02-27- 05:26 PM            

The Supreme Court through the years has overturned previous Supreme Court rulings in the past. Even they can admit they were wrong.

BTW...you misspelled 'sensibilities'...LOL

posted 02-27- 09:36 PM            

From what I have seen yes. I was sold on the project enough to take the job. But, I don't want to say what it is until we get a publisher...even then I don't want to violate my NDA. But, if all goes well, I'll let every one know which sim it is...It's not WW2 though.

posted 02-28- 12:58 PM            

Nov 12 - Bush - Fed Court - Block recounts -
Denied

Nov 16 - Bush - Fed Appeals Court - Appeal of
Nov 12 case

Nov 16 - Gore - Fl State Court - Challenge of
vote certification.

Nov 17 - Gore - Fl Supreme court - Allow
vote recounts

Nov 24 - Bush - US Supreme court - Appeal of
FL Supreme court ruling allowing
hand counts to continue. 1st one.

Nov 27 - Gore - FL circut court - wrongful
vote certification

Dec 4 - Gore - FL supreme court - Appeal of
Nov 27 case.

Dec 8 - Bush - US supreme court - Appeal of
FL Superme court allowing hand
recounts - 2nd one.

Counting appeals I make it 4 each with Bush
running to the court first.

Here's where I got it if you want to look.
http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/12/13/got.here/index.html