posted 12-12- 05:34 AM               

All I get on the news in the UK is the election. Not that the voters seem to have much to do with it now.

Any close examination of either candidate would make it obvious that your politicos, as with ours, are a bunch of self-service assholes, who will do whatever the hell they please/can get away with, just as soon as they get in power.

.......or to quote Mr Bush jr....

If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.....

You want THIS bloke in charge? or the other bloke....

Glad I don't have to choose.

p.s. If you live in a democracy, why do courts decide if your votes can get counted?

p.p.s. If your ballot counting was so way out in 1 state ..... what about the rest of the country?

p.p.p.s. Has anyone sold the rights to make the Gore-Bush mini-series yet?

posted 12-12- 10:08 AM               

The main reason we can't get this figured out is due to the fact that the country has been split almost perfectly down the middle...the margin of victory for Gore in the popular vote was .002%, and the margin of victory for Bush in Florida is somewhere around .0001%.

So you've got a situation where the popular vote, with a margin of victory of .002%, is trumped by winning the vote in the state of Florida, with a margin of .0001%.

Add to this the fact that really, since it's so damn close nobody really knows if anyone won ANYTHING, also helped along by the fact that for some reason, large parts of the country use stone-age voting tabulation equipment, with absolutely unacceptable levels of error, which up until this point was tolerated, because even with the incredibly large margins of error, it was always pretty easy to tell who won, no matter what.

We never figured on having the country split right down the middle. It's even gotten to the point where the Florida Supreme Court and the U.S. Supreme Court are split on their decisions 4-3, and 5-4. Sheesh.

Plus, we don't have as much fun as you guys do in your House. I'd much rather watch Tony B and his Homeys than our boring C-SPAN stuff. I love how the PM gets to use that book, and the atmosphere is a hell of a lot more electrifying.

I've even started using "I refer the Right Honorable Gentelmen to the statement I made previously on this subject" in arguments sometimes now. It really does make a point.

posted 12-12- 10:16 AM               

quote:

---

p.s. If you live in a democracy, why do courts decide if your votes can get counted?

---

We don't live in a democracy, we live in a constitutional republic - BIG difference. Pure democracy sucks, bigtime.

quote:

---

p.p.s. If your ballot counting was so way out in 1 state ..... what about the rest of the country?

---

It is not "way" off, things are just SO close here that the tiny bit they are off is causing concearn. A race this close might not happen for another 400 years... maybe never - it is simply amazing that such a large sample could be this close...

By the way, I like G. W. Bush - ALLOT.

posted 12-12- 11:14 AM               

Still reckon the coin toss would be fairer...

or, if you want a battle of wits, how about..

stone, scissors, paper....

Shoot them both if it gets to be 'best of 53364990' ...and they both choose scissors....

posted 12-12- 12:42 PM            

1 shitty candidate + 1 shitty candidate =

posted 12-12- 03:16 PM               

o.k. heres the plan.....

Have a whip round, pick up a few cheap nukes from Russia, nuke the next major get together of the politicos and sieze power!

YOU KNOW IT MAKES SENSE!

p.s. You had a revolution when we ran the country for you....

posted 12-12- 04:30 PM            

But unfortunately I think there may be grain of reality in what you have suggested...the revolution that is. I have the distinct feeling that there will be a revolution of some variety (political, military, something) in my lifetime. This isn't something I neccesarily want to see happen (although a political restructuring wouldn't be too bad an idea) but from the prolifiration of "hate" groups and "militias" and the rising trend towards domestic terrorism... well... it doesn't point towards good things as far as I can tell.

But then again, I'm kind of a pessimist at heart so maybe I'm seeing shadows that aren't there.

PS - There is no way in hell you could get me to run for President... or even accept the job if it was just offered up. You'd have to be nuts to want that job - and that's part of the problem with the candidates.

-Stark

posted 12-12- 07:00 PM               

quote:

---

We don't live in a democracy, we live in a constitutional republic - BIG difference. Pure democracy sucks, bigtime.

---

posted 12-12- 08:32 PM               

In a pure democracy you have, moreover, mob rule. Any crazy law can be passed at any time by a majority. ANYTHING can happen, and there is little, if any, political, economical, or civic stability.

A consitutional republic on the other hand, has much in common with a democracy BUT: it choses one document to act as a baseline law of the land. Every state that wants to be part of the republic must obey the constitution - its laws are sacred across the land - and changing this constitution, while possible, is very, very hard.

The great thing this brings is stability and political identity. We all know where we stand - how the country should run at a high level. The constitution does not have to give you rights, or set up the power branches we have - or anything specificaly. Just having a law of the land and road map to follow is enough.

Now the lucky thing for us Americans is that not only are we a constitutional republic, but we have the most kick-ass clever and wonderful constitution ever composed! Here our basic government scheme is expressed, our individual rights as citizens, and much more.

Thanks to the consistancy brought by this document and its enforcement throughout the land, we enjoy the fair justice and high standard living that we have.

At the end of the day, we really do have rights, and the country does have a road map, and it is writen down in some of the best English ever writen - sometimes poetic, but always meaningful - it stears this nation and gives its citizens peace of mind.

Should we cast off the constitution and embrace pure democracy - well - I will leave that up to your imagination.

posted 12-12- 08:41 PM               

The main way it accomplishes this is leaving much control to each individual state in the republic. This way each state can be a heavan of like-minded souls, and yet still fit into the republic as a whole.

One big problem nowadays is that people won't stay put! HEY! Who let all the liberals into my state!!!! (New Hampshire) - we were once the most conservative state going - NO state taxes, few personal laws - a "get offa my property" kind od state. Now all these NY city slickers have moved in on our turf and NH has, gulp, a democrat governer!!!

posted 12-12- 08:57 PM               

In your view, to what extent should states be allowed to be autonomous? Should they be allowed to do just about anything they want? And, in order to preserve this "like-mindedness" you speak of, should they be allowed to close their borders and only let certain people in?

posted 12-12- 09:44 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mk10 225th:

The main reason we can't get this figured out is due to the fact that the country has been split almost perfectly down the middle...the margin of victory for Gore in the popular vote was .002%, and the margin of victory for Bush in Florida is somewhere around .0001%.

So you've got a situation where the popular vote, with a margin of victory of .002%, is trumped by winning the vote in the state of Florida, with a margin of .0001%.

---

Actually, we will never know who acutally won the popular vote. California alone has over 1,000,000 absentee ballots they never counted because it wouldn't affect the outcome of any of the elections in the state. I have no idea how many uncounted absentee ballots there are in other states for the same reason. In California alone, if Bush won 65% of the absentee ballots, which is not unusual for a Republican candidate, he would wipe out Gore's popular vote lead.

posted 12-12- 09:45 PM               

The Constitution all ready covers freedom to travel - that is a key thing. As far as granting citizenship, that should be up to the state. Of course they can not diney citizenship in any way that violates the US Constitution - so a state can not just keep black people out for example.

However, there are towns where I live that require minimum property sizes - and with our hefty property tax that keeps many people out.

If there is something that the republic does not want states to control, it must be added to the constitution - and you know what that means - all the states must agree.

posted 12-12- 09:46 PM            

Oh man, this is a doozy. You care about dignity over life, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness? Phew. Whatever.

Don't we just hate when we are allowed to think and act for ourselves aren't we?

Democracy does not mean mob rule. Laws are still followed and we do give up certain rights and hand them over to our elected officials, no matter how shitty they may be.

Who did you vote for anyway? George 'Just a few more days and my brother will save my ass' Bush or King Tut?

posted 12-12- 10:24 PM               

It's nice that you can put my qoute in such a cool-looking format, but if you'd read a bit further, you would also present to the nice folks that read this drivel, that I am of the opinion that when an election is this close, taking into the consideration the inaccuracies of the voting machines used etc., that there is no real way to determine WHO in the name of Christ won. Period.

Please read the entire post that I made. I think I made it pretty clear that more than being for Gore OR Bush, I am saddened that we will never truly know the will of the people in this election, WHICHEVER way it might be in reality.

But hey...thanks for thinkin' of me!

posted 12-13- 12:59 AM               

I just culled out the part about Gore winning the popular vote, and threw in my 2 cents. The mainstream press is quick to point out the popular vote totals but how often do you hear about the uncounted votes in states other than Florida? Since it looks like GW is going to be our President, IMO it's important for people to realize that he may have won the popular vote too! It would help with the healing that's going to be necessary.

posted 12-13- 11:01 AM               

great civilisation .... built on slavery, military conquest, and suppression. Absolute rulers spending the wealth of the country in an attempt to secure their own immortality....

Little evidence reamins as to whether they practiced any real form of justice, apart from that of the 'I'm King, so I'm right...and if you don't like it, allow me to introduce my Army....'

still...let me say something from the heart!

Don't ever fall out over politics! The guy you support is probably just telling lies that you like the sound of!

p.s. A politicians promise is like Santa Claus.....I never knock someone for believing in them......but I found out the truth some years ago!

posted 12-13- 11:52 AM               

Certainly there are measures of a civilization... and certainly the high standard of living, rich culture, public order, and strong identity of ancient Egypt is an accomplishment that does justice to the greatness of humanity, does it not?

But I suppose today most people think that the animals are more dignified than us, fitting into the tapestry of nature - only the animals are innocent, this was the credo of my fellow philosophers in college.

There is nothing more disgusting in my view than people acting like animals - and so, in its great victory over this condition, no civilization has ever equaled that of the English. Our constitutional republic is a divine offspring of this great state of mind.

The nazis, the communists, these people who believe that humans ought to live as great ant colonies - they are still the great enemy of humanity.

Only in our over achieving and greed to control the will of our peers have we stumbled into socialist ways. The guilt of success is to much for many a humble soul, and so we try to impose our life views onto those who live separately from our ideology - we seek to make them what we want them to be - out of guilt and shame. Shame in being human? Why? Those very greatest things we do give us the highest cause for guilt, and the most wonderful things we achieve are torn down by their creators.

Man needs to accept who he is and dignify the position. There is no glory in trying to become something that you are not, rather it diminishes and insults all that which we could be.

What is fairness? In the eyes of different assumptions it is folly. It is the assumptions themselves that are sacred to us, fairness is but a compromise, a good faith effort. In the end, unlike truth, there is no such thing as true and final fairness - such a thing would require all people's minds to have identical systems of relations - and maybe this is the goal of the politically correct - that all peoples minds can be one.

posted 12-13- 12:00 PM               

For those interested, here is a website for the official count in California...

http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/elections_upbr.htm

posted 12-13- 12:21 PM               

If it was so great, then why isn't it still around?

WT makes a good point... a culture/society that makes great advances in the areas of science, medicine, and the arts is not necessarily a great culture/society.

Look at Nazi Germany... so many advances in science and medicine and yet, as a society and a culture, rotten to the core.

Roman Empire... same deal... great advances in art, science, architecture, medicine... but, as a society, rotten to the core... and just like those other "great empires"... not around anymore.

posted 12-13- 12:57 PM               

Those civilizations ARE around us everywhere we look, from our language to our laws, our science and our art. If you think that we would be where were are today without them, you are clearly ignorant.

Also, Mr. judgmental, you can not judge civilizations of yesterday with today's standards. You must look at what they had to deal with, and what they made of it. This is the basic approach to history and anthropology.

posted 12-13- 01:02 PM            

Also, regarding the counts of California - yes, each and every county has counted every vote.... but unlees the votes counted after the election night (read absentees) would make a difference in a race they are not included in the certified state totals... it's a bit screwy but that's the way it works. So those 1.1 million or so votes listed on that page you linked are not included in the official state tally of votes for president. Personally, I don't see how they can do that but I guess nobody has ever bothered to contest the policy in a court. It is however possible to determine that count on your own by getting the individual numbers from each county - somebody already did that out here and the number they came up with had Gore winning the popular vote by around 25,000 votes nationwide. Thank god the President isn't elected by popular vote... we would have neded up recounting the entire damned country!! We'd be counting until July at least!

posted 12-13- 01:12 PM               

I never said that our society has lasted longer than that of the ancient Egyptians. I'm merely pointing out that even though the Egyptian Empire made great advances in just about everything, it is gone. That is not arrogance on my part. That is fact.

And finally, I don't care if you call me arrogant, but please don't put words in my mouth.

>Also, Mr. judgmental, you can not judge civilizations of yesterday with today's standards. You must look at what they had to deal with, and what they made of it. This is the basic approach to history and anthropology.

I'm not judging anything. I'm merely pointing out that the advances a society makes is not necessarily the best way or the only way to measure it's greatness. That's ALL I'm saying here.

>So you really do not believe in progress then? Sometimes I get the feeling that you are just looking for disagreements - I wonder if there is anything I could say without getting such objections. The more you think and say, the more you are subjected to review. This is good, but think about that next time you wonder why the candidates do not seem so passionate or well spoken.

You and I don't agree on much, but we have agreed on things before. In any case, I was merely posing a few questions and making a few observations in regards to your statements about ancient Egypt and in regards to what WT said... nothing more... not trying to pick a fight.

And, yes, I believe in progress... just not progress at any cost.

posted 12-13- 02:40 PM            

According to the Yolo County Election Commisioners office (I work for Yolo County...so I called up somebody over there and asked ) none of the absentee ballots from this county were reported (8752 ballots). I also asked if they knew about any other counties... to their knowledge Sacramento, Placer, Napa, Yuba, San Joaquin, and El Dorado counties did not bother to report either. So at least in Northern CA the trend would appear to be non-reporting of absentee returns. They do report that they have finished all their counts but then say that that the prelim certified count that they submitted is to be used as the official count on state-wide and federal counts.

I also asked why this policy was practiced and was told it was to prevent potential errors caused by confusion over which count was the current and correct count at the state level... they did assure me however that if the race was close they would always include all the absentee ballots in their reported count. However, in CA at least there were no sufficently close statewide issues that the absentees could have a made a difference on.

Apparently some counties do include absentee ballots every time but usually it is only the very large ones that have a large number of absentee ballots (like LA - 80,000+ absentee ballots). Most of the counties, at least in the opinion of the person I talked to - who would have a good idea about these things, probably don't bother to do so on a regular basis.

posted 12-13- 02:45 PM               

Also, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but how should I interpret this?

quote:

---

If it was so great, then why isn't it still around?

---

Sounds to me like you are both putting ancient Egypt down and also using longevity as a measure of a civilization - two notions that I strongly disagree with. Should I have read this another way?

posted 12-13- 03:17 PM               

That if you even agree that it was accomplished by themselves without outside intervention.

SV you also argue about fairness.

I'm guessing you would have been proud to have been a slave working on the piramids?

You would have loved every minute of it right?

posted 12-13- 04:28 PM            

OH God I'm scared now. How will I ever pass my calculus final with the weight of this hanging over my shoulder?

posted 12-13- 04:41 PM               

Yes, I would have been proud to live in Egypt at the time, DAMN proud of my culture - ever read Egyptian poetry? It might suprise you... this stuff was writen by the people you call "slaves."

If you get up in the morning and go to work, you are a "slave" by your own type of definition.

Not everyone in Egypt was forced to build pyramids you narrow-visioned sloths.

I would much rather be a proud citizen of the great ancient Egypt than be living with the barbiarians of the time - so let's say - in the height of Egypts greatness - what society would you rather have been living in?

What a strange question to ask me - to suggest the Egypt should be measured by today's standards - as if I think Egypt was a better society - your heads are full of bull shit - try understanding what you read instead of reponding like pre-programmed robots - use a little imagination - and fo God's sake, give your ancestors a break you thankless bastards.

These self rightous views make me sick - I feel like I am talking with Mary Tyler Moore. Where have all the men gone? It is like a chick-fest in here.

There, that is better - much more becoming of the "flame wars" forum

posted 12-13- 04:55 PM               

Just for the record, I only correct Propwash's spelling errors. There isn't much else to comment on when it comes to Mr. Propwash's posts.

:-)