posted 03-30- 01:50 AM               

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posted 03-30- 04:16 AM               

Good one Burkey!

I think everyone helped everyone. I don't think anyone can take too much credit for the win. OR!! the mistakes. All sides and countrys made mistakes and stupid decisions that hurt there ability and effeciency to fight.

Like someone said. If britain would have jumped in before France was threatened it might have been different. But on the same note if the US had entered earlier it might have been different too. If the Italians didn't enter africa and need germany to bail them out it might have been different. If germany didn't attack russia, If Hitler would have let some of the Smarter people in his Forces make the decisions they would have done better, in alot of cases.

I Tell ya one thing we can all agree on. It was a huge waste of time, life and money, BUT then again who knows what the world would be like now if it didn't happen.

The Pacific theater is a WHOLE other ballgame. HEHE.

posted 03-30- 04:56 AM               

And now for our continuing flame war......

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posted 03-30- 12:50 PM               

But the Holocaust was an abomination that went beyond any war related activity. It was in fact independent of the war. The war would have happened without it and the Holocaust would have happened without the war - at least within the German borders.

War is the unfortunate but enevitable outcome of primitive societies. Genocide of Holocaust proportions requires pure evil and is not reflective of the human condition, even at it's worst. And I will fight to the death anyone who claims that any good came of it or that it was an unavoidable side issue of WWII. The Holocaust stands alone in it's horror.

Sorry, guys. This is really one of my hot buttons. I guess I went overboard.

posted 03-30- 01:39 PM               

FUck off jerry. What makes the war mongers so much better?

"Matters relating to the conduct of war, yes"

What a line of shit.

The fact is war does bring alot of good things. We wouldn't be playing a sim based on ww2 if there was no ww2 and that would kinda suck ass.

Spy I certainly don't think we would still be living in the 40s. We MIGHT not have been as far along as we are but it's not like there would have been no advancements.

One more though. What if there was no ww2 until say, sometimes in the 60s? Even without the war we might have had better war technology by then. Imagine what Hitler could have done then? Maybe ww2 was going to happen anyway you look at it. An oppressed german people. And a leader who could lead them. If he waited it might have been worse.

Genocide is happening all the time. Just on a smaller scale. As soon as you kill off ALOT of people its somehow a HUGE deal (not that it wasn't). I'm just saying the only reason people pay attention to it was because of the HUGE numbers and the fact that it was Jews.

Read some stuff about the balkans some of that stuff is really nasty. Just on a smaller scale. Africa too. Look at that crazyness.

Heck sometimes you could probly charge me with thoughts of Genocide or at least mass murder. With all the trouble in the middle east, sometimes I think we should just nuke the whole damn place. I know thats not a solution but man its just INSANE the crap that goes on there.

posted 03-30- 03:36 PM               

Where did I say that giving refuge to war criminals was acceptable? I did agree with Siggi that the allies did take in individuals with unique knowledge, but I didn’t say that it was a good idea (that’s for another discussion you won’t understand). But I also pointed out that AFAIK no one gave refuge to a Nazi because of his Holocaust activities.

Where did I say that war never results in anything good? God forbid that you should be denied a flight sim had it not been for 100 million people dying in WWII.

What I did say was that the Holocaust didn’t result in anything good. I then went out of my way to distinguish the Holocaust from the war by saying that it was a stand-alone event far more evil than any war. I’m talking morality here Spanky. Do you know what the word means?

I also referred to “genocide of Holocaust proportions”. I didn’t say that it was the only genocidal action ever taken in the history of man. But since our topic is WWII I limited my comments to the Holocaust. The actions in the Balkans and Africa, however “nasty”, still pale when compared to the Holocaust.

Your exercise in alternative history is so irrelevant to the topic that I won’t waste my time addressing it.

As far as your personal thoughts of and desires for mass murder….why am I not surprised?

posted 03-30- 04:22 PM               

Why is the Holocaust any more important then any other mass murder or genocide? Just cause of the #s?

And I never said that I'm glad the war happened so we can all play war games. I just stated that we wouldn't be playing it.

I wouldn't say our topic is ww2 limited. If other stuff pertains to it then it should be used. Why ignore the rest of history.

So as soon as I have an different thought or opinion all of a sudden I have a "puny" brain. LOL

Thats they way the world works I guess. If you don't agree with jerry your wrong.

Now I get it. My life is complete. Just tell me what to think and do. Life will be SO much easier now.

Next command please!

What about the people who ordered the Young men into Nam? They were fighting a war the people didn't want. Shouldn't they be convicted of mass murder?

posted 03-30- 04:48 PM               

Spanky, you read Jerry's post and replied to it carelessly. Jerry is logical and was able to shoot you up easily.

Jerry, "fuck you Jerry" wouldn't constitute lack of respect between friends; it's almost a common prefix to a following counter-point here in the UK.

Then again it was bang out of order.

Spanky is a rough diamond who talks hard and fast. Jerry is logical and considered.

Jam and mustard. I like them both but they don't taste too good in the same sandwich.

posted 03-30- 05:42 PM               

It is estimated that between the Russians and the Germans combined between 1932-145 over 20,000,000 + Ukrainians were killed!

The Russians caused an artifical faminine in Ukraine in 1932-1933 that killed an estimated 10,000,000 million people.

It wasn't just jews in the concentration camps either. Enough about the Holocaust. The Jews are not the only oppressed race/religion in the world.

They also say, those who study our past will not repeat it. Genocide still goes on around the world.

For crying out loud, the real 429 Sqn does not even have a "Roll of Honour" listing those who died with the sqn during WWII. They don't have any of their war history. That is one reason, I guess, they are having me as a guest speaker at their reunion dinner at the end of April. The bloody RCAF doesn't even know it's history. How soon everyone forgets and repeats!!!!!

Even if they do remember and study the past they still repeat the same mistakes anyway.

I will get off my soapbox now. I had a boring day, so I want to stir the pot.

posted 03-30- 06:42 PM               

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posted 03-30- 07:47 PM               

K heheh.

Jv44~Siggi Yeah I was probly a bit off. I had just gotten out of bed. And I was pissed. I'm sick of people excusing war. If people weren't such selfish dumb ass's maybe we would have less of them.

Friggen whinners that start them:

"I need more land"
"I hate so and so and such and such"
" oh you have a different color of skin or relgion, your wrong i'm right so i shall kill you and all of your kind"

I was mostly mad about the war mongers part. I realize he doesn't support the fact that we took them in and used them for our purposes but he sure doesn't seem to blame them very much. I personally hate them. Just as much and probly more then the people that killed off the Jews by the millions.

"Spanky is a rough diamond who talks hard and fast" I won't deny that. I could sit here and think about it for a couple minutes but i just have a habit of blurting it out.

kopper- E(FUCKING)xactly

Spyder Yeah your probly right about the advancements. For some reason the only thing that drives us is death and destruction. You guys every hear of nanotechs? I personally think we should drop half the shit we are working on as a planet and have every half decent scientest working on makeing them a reality. Included any and all space work. Most medical research. All that stuff. WHY? cause nanotechs will solve all thost problems. If I had money I wanted to give away I would give it to scientests working on nanotechs before ANYTHING ELSE. Including cancer. Little kids dieing, Any and all nastyness in this world. My money would go to the nanotechs.

Nanotechs are a double edged sword though. And it wouldn't be easy or cheap. But the results are endless.

posted 03-30- 09:55 PM               

1) If God hadn't invented scotch, the Scottish would have taken over the world.

posted 03-30- 09:56 PM               

Damm Whirly, how'd you slip that in before me?

posted 03-30- 11:59 PM               

First you tell me to “Fuck off” when I express the opinion that the Holocaust was morally more evil than war. How that offended you I have no idea. If anyone should be offended by what I said it’s Spyder because it was his comment about the Holocaust that I was responding to – nothing you had said!

Then you start ranting about “war mongers”, whatever that means. If you mean those who start wars, what does that have to do with anything I said? If you mean anyone on the losing side who we happened to take in then that’s a whole different debate, but not the topic of my posts.

Then you say you are “sick of people excusing war”. Who is doing that?

Then you go on to say you were “mostly mad about the war mongers part”. Spanky, you’re the only one talking about war mongers! You’re arguing with yourself!

And finally you say that I don’t seem blame the war on the people we took in. How do you know that? In addition to being brilliant are you also psychic?

Kopper, by not mentioning other massacres I was not belittling them. My comments were directly solely to Spyder’s post about medical experimentation during the Jewish Holocaust. I see no reason for you to act put out by hearing the Holocaust mentioned just because yours was bigger.

As far as the “good” that came out of the medical experimentation on people during the war: it’s difficult for me to imagine that any useful information was gained that couldn’t have been gained some other way. The medical experiments conducted by the Nazis and the Japanese were done almost exclusively without anesthesia. What could be learned about human anatomy from a screaming struggling patient that couldn’t have been learned from an unconscious one? What could have been learned that couldn’t have been learned in military field hospitals where the patients were already mutilated? Yes they did learn how much pain a human can endure before dying from it. That may be useful for a torturer but can hardly be considered “useful” information. Yes they did learn how quickly deadly toxins worked. If live patients were necessary why not use condemned criminals, as callous as that sounds?

posted 03-31- 03:38 AM               

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posted 03-31- 03:56 AM               

Yeah maybe We got a little mixed up Jerry.

With the paragraph "As far as I know no one was given refuge by any of the allies for their medical expertise learned in Concentration Camps! Rocket science, physics, etc. yes. Weapons expertise, yes. Matters relating to the conduct of war, yes."

That made me mad. You just seemed to be excusing the rest of the war as a thing that was just fine. Like if the Holocaust never happened, you would have been just fine with ww2. As long as everyone followed all the little "rules of war" then you wouldn't have cared. I know thats not what you ment, it just seemed that way.

BTW For all those war mongers out there (i love that term for some reason) I'll give you a rule for war. As soon as one starts! Go home put away your fucking weapons and fix the damn problems instead of taking it out on your fellow man.

I just REALLY hate war. I don't think enough people do. When who ever said "war is hell" said it, I think he meant WAR IS HELL. Like real HELL like our visions of it. Not just somthing to be said to the misus in your tough guy, I can take it voice, in the movies.

I may be young and I have never been in a war, and i'm sure its way worse then I think it is. But the thing is I think its the worst possible thing in the world. Its insane. I don't think enough people get that. I remember being a little kid and wanting to play war and thinking it would be cool to be in a real war " I THINK most of us did" well i sure don't feel like that now. I read alot of non fiction and lately its been about ww2 and nam. Every one I read makes me almost want to cry near the end when the person starts to name off all the freinds they saw die. And its a common thing that by the end of the war or their tour they are just frazzeled and can't even function as a person anymore.

I'm reading a book about a nurse in nam. I think its a great perspective to see. Highly recommened if any one wants the title just ask. Its just insane what those boys were coming in like. Even though she was saving lives every day, Something she could take comfort in, even though she wasn't doing any of the killing, she was still a wreck by halfway through her tour.

Anyway i'm rambling hehhe..

sum it up. I hate war. and you seemed to be brushing it off as not a big deal, like the Holocaust was the worst part of ww2. I guess in your eyes it was, but in mine the war was just as bad. I know you wern't and you don't like war so its all cool. I think.

BTW while naming all those countries that have done things to people for its own gains.
"I'm sure history has managed to claw back some good from the Nazi attrocities, and those commited by the Japanese, the Soviets, the Serbs, Rwandans,the I.R.A and maybe even the C.I.A"

remember to slap up the go ol US of A on that list.

Even Canada has its own dirty little secrets. I know one that I don't think alot of Canadians know, We were producing biological warfare before, during and after ww2. Never got used to my knowlege but we were making some nasty stuff. Pure Evil. Enough to kill off the whole world a couple times over. And the usa and uk were part of it.

I would think that the thoughts of anything good coming out of the war and the Holocaust, would be a good thing. At least there is an upside.

Fact is we wouldn't know some stuff if there wasn't wars and Holocausts and dirty little secrets.

posted 03-31- 12:43 PM               

This is the Flame War section. I can act as put out as I want!!!!

If you can't take the heat, get out of the 'Flames'

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Kopper

Fortunae Nihil
(Nothing to Chance)
OPPs Making SDOE a Dangerous place.
One plane at a time.

posted 03-31- 02:49 PM               

If after a year of my posts you still think I can't take the heat, take your best shot! But have someone standing by to sweep up your ashes.

posted 04-01- 01:37 PM               

Spyder is right about the medical advances. Daily, patients at clinics and hospitals across the world 'benefit' from research that has continued because of what was so horrifically begun in Germany. I use the term 'benefit' rather loosely, as I was one of those last summer, and the 'advances' used nearly killed me quicker than the reasons for using them.

IMO- Hitler qualifies as a 'great' leader. ( That oughta get me shot up good! ). But you have to define your meaning of the word 'great'. Ghandi was also a great leader, but totally different. Hitler took a beaten, downtrodden, depressed nation and turned it into a world beating ( nearly ) machine almost over night, in terms of history. Madman? Yup. Maybe that is what it takes? But it fits my definition of 'great'; not good, no, just 'great'. The British had a good leader in WWII...but great? No...the people were great...what they accomplished in the early years of WWII was nothing short of outstanding.

posted 04-01- 07:00 PM               

Freezing / Hypothermia
Genetics
Infectious Diseases
Interrogation and Torture
Killing / Genocide
High Altitude
Pharmacological
Sterilization
Surgery
Traumatic Injuries

I can but won't list the experiments used to achieve these tests. It's sick.

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posted 04-01- 07:43 PM               

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posted 04-01- 07:54 PM               

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posted 04-02- 01:54 PM               

All I can say is that there have been some pretty remarkable medical advances in the areas you mention after the war and researches didn't have to take healthy people and torture and kill them to gain knowledge.

As for studying traumatic injuries, Germany was in a World War! There were plenty of military and civilian traumatic injuries around to study without having to mutilate healthy people.

Freezing people to the point of death in order to learn how to keep them warm seems a bit illogical. Studies in protecting people against the elements are done all the time and people aren't killed. Research of this kind uses volunteers when live subjects are needed. For example, when space suits are designed no one exposes humans to a vacuum until they explode.

I'll concede that some medical information came out of the Holocaust and was used for good later. I won't concede that this information could only have been obtained by torture and not some other more humane way.

We learned a lot about radiation exposure from Hiroshima and Nagasaki too. If that was the sole purpose of dropping the bombs then we are as guilty as the Nazi researchers who killed and maimed victims for research.

posted 04-02- 06:54 PM               

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posted 04-03- 12:53 AM               

Jerry, think on this one.
These days in the media people protest about product testing on animals and many products have "not tested on animals" printed on them.
Why do we test chemicals/products on live animals? It's because we can't test them on humans. That would be the ideal test subject, but it's unethical and no-one is willing to volunteer.

Grotusque side-note
Theoretically the best food (sustenance) for the human body is... more human! MMM.
It may be revolting but it's true. What else contains exactly the nutrients we need, in exactly the right ratios/amounts?

And here's a couple catchy new slogans:
Homo Sapiens... it's what's for dinner.
Human... the other other white meat.

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-=TheReaper=-

posted 04-08- 10:38 AM               

hee-hee.