posted 01-12- 03:47 PM               

One problem though. All three of the firemen in the photo were white, so the PC crowd is having the statue made with one white, one latino and one black fireman! Talk about distorting history!! Facts and reality mean nothing to the PC crowd! It's mind control no matter how you disect it and we Americans just sit around and let it happen. Makes me puke!!

Any of you liberals want to defend this exercise in this feel-good symbolism over substance crap?

What I can't understand is why the PC statue doesn't show any female firepersons. If we are going to lie to future generations why not go all the way?

posted 01-12- 04:23 PM               

Um, Jerry... The statue is supposed to celebrate all the firefighters who died on Sept. 11... not just the 3 guys in the photo. There were a lot of black and hispanic firefighters who died that day so it's perfectly reasonable to make the figures in the statue reflect that fact.

>What I can't understand is why the PC statue doesn't show any female firepersons. If we are going to lie to future generations why not go all the way?

Because there aren't any female firefighters... or at least very few.

>Why not a mentally retarted fireman/woman aswell?

To my knowledge, there are no mentally retarded firefighters.

Please get a clue guys... this statue IS about symbolism. I don't think the 3 guys in the photo would want this statue to be ONLY about them.

posted 01-12- 04:38 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jerry+:
Any of you liberals want to defend this exercise in this feel-good symbolism over substance crap?

---

What, you mean like "politics"? Or "national missile defense"?

Liberal is not a four letter word. In fact, only in the US has it's use been so distorted. Don't blame everything on those "liberals", all you'll do is cover up everyone else's stupidity too.

posted 01-12- 04:58 PM               

Why do we have to insert ethnicity as a mandatory requirement for any statue? Why is the race of the depicted firemen so important? "AMERICANS" were killed. That should be the "symbolic" message, not their race. Why do we always have to play the race card at the expense of accuracy?

You say there doesn't have to be a female representative in the statue, because there aren't a lot of female firefighters? So what's the formula JT? What percentage of the workforce does a group have to be before they have a statue built? 5%, 10% 20%? What's the dividing line between diversity and racism?

posted 01-12- 05:05 PM               

Yeah, Conservatives say and do dumb things too, especially rednecks and religious zealots. But my money is on the Liberals for this one.

I'm not sure what you mean about "politics". Is this a PC term?

posted 01-12- 10:42 PM               

Accuracy? The statue is supposed to be about all the firefighters in NYC, not just the 3 guys in the photo it's based on, right? On that we can agree, right? Now, since the NYC fire department consists of mostly black, hispanic, and white people would it not be more accurate to have the statue depict all three of those 3 ethnicities?

Furthermore, you are the one who is getting all bent out of shape about race. All I am suggesting is that since the statue is meant to celebrate ALL the firefighters who died in that tragedy, it is reasonable to depict the three most common ethnicities in the NYC fire department... black, hispanic, and white.

The statue should be more than a clinical snapshot of an event that took place. It should be more than a mere recording of fact. If it is to be a successful monument, it should be a moving and symbolic memorial to all those who fought to save lives that day.

Personally speaking, I don't have a problem with the statue depicting only one race. At the same time, I think it's a good idea for the statue to depict more than one race, not because I think that's the politically correct view to take, but because that would make the statue a more accurate depiction of the entire NYC fire department.

>You say there doesn't have to be a female representative in the statue, because there aren't a lot of female firefighters? So what's the formula JT? What percentage of the workforce does a group have to be before they have a statue built? 5%, 10% 20%?

You use common sense. You depict the most common ethnicities within the fire department as a way of representing all the ethnicities. Certainly, depicting firefighters of 3 different ethnicities would be more accurate than depicting just one ethnicity.

posted 01-12- 10:59 PM               

I'm only saying that if the intent of the statue is to "celebrate" the diversity of the firefighters then it should be done in a way that doesn't distort the historical accuracy of the event. If you are going to depict an event, depict it accurately...or don't depict it at all. Choose another subject.

To your way of thinking the Iwo Jima flag raising statue at Arlington should also be changed to reflect the diversity of the Marines in WWII. Since there were hardly any Native Americans in the Marines in WWII and one of the flag raisers was a Native American maybe we should change his face to white. LOL Or does that not count? Are you saying that when a minority performs a patriotic act you recognize his race for it, but if a minority doesn't perform a particular patriotic act you still recognize his race for it?

To hell with the facts, right JT? Revisionist history makes us feel sooo much better.

NO, it is NOT more accurate to depict three ethic groups doing something that only one ethnic group did! What do have against real accuracy, JT?

What if the flag raisers had all been black? How do you think the PC crowd and other liberals would react if it was decided to make the statue using some white faces? It's a moot point because if someone came up with the idea they would be laughed at and called racist, and the idea would never be considered. We would suddenly find that accuracy IS important.

Truth has no double standard JT.

posted 01-12- 11:04 PM               

Again, the statue is more than just a clinical snapshot of an event. It is a monument to all the firefighters of NYC.

I can't put it more plainly than that. If you don't understand what I'm saying, so be it.

posted 01-12- 11:06 PM               

Statues are not historical documents. They are works of art.

posted 01-12- 11:47 PM               

"Statues are not historical documents. They are works of art."
--------------------------------------------
Well put JT. I don't see how it should bother anyone.

posted 01-13- 12:26 AM               

- If it is an exact replica of the event, it should reflect things as they were.

- If it is not an exact replica, then it should reflect a greater reality (the diversity of the fire dept) in an original pose.

posted 01-13- 02:11 AM               

The information comes from an Associated Press article in the newspaper. The article included a picture of the clay model for the statue. It is an exact copy of the flag raising photo. The article is written by Stephanie Gaskell and the photo of the clay model taken by Robert Spender also with the Associated Press. You may be able to find it on the internet.

Art should not be used for PC historical revisionism. I'm amazed that there are people like JT who don't care what lies are being passed on to our children. This may seem like a small "adjustment" to the truth, but it leads to things like the revisionist's condemnation of ending WWII with the atom bomb and to those who would have us belive that the holocaust never happened or to no one caring about an American President lying to us on national television.

posted 01-13- 02:20 AM               

What is the lie? Are there no black or hispanic firefighters in NYC?

posted 01-13- 03:57 AM               

If its based on the photo then it should be three white guys, I consider that photo, a snapshot of history and the statue should reflect that photo.

posted 01-13- 09:06 AM               

Good arguments on both sides. I kinda tend
to agree with Jerry on this one. History gets
distorted too much as it is.

Isn't the famous Iwo Jima picture and hence
the memorial a re-enactment? I don't think
the real flag raising on Iwo got photographed.
I could be wrong though.

posted 01-13- 11:01 AM            

Jihad Jerry is about to have a heart attack!!

posted 01-13- 01:00 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jerry+:
Maury, are you saying that you don't think that the people who made the decision to change the race of the firemen for the sake of diversity are liberal?

---

What I'm saying is that what you think of as "liberal" is a caricature that exists only in the US.

Blaming this on "liberals" is like blaming it on "Mickey Mouse" - a known quality that's meaningless, and an easy out. Now you can go around and feel a part of the righteous PC-bating club, "oh yeah, those liberals!". After all, who wants to think?

Let me assure you, "the conservatives" of the US are exactly as politically correct as "the liberals". That's because we exist in an era of sound-bite politics, and general appeasement. Feel-good BS is what the political system is about now.

So your mock disdain is misplaced. You've taken the easy way out, "oh those liberals!". The fact is you don't know who proposed this, do you? And I'm betting you really don't give a crap about the issue anyway, this is just a convenient issue to get riled up about.

quote:

---

And what's misleading or inaccurate about "national missle defense".

---

Well considering this is the flames area: LEARN TO READ:

quote:

---

Any of you liberals want to defend this exercise in this feel-good symbolism over substance crap?

---

NMD is feel-good symbolism over substance.

And really, where the hell did "Any of you liberals" come from? Where'd you pick up that stellar debating style, grade school?

posted 01-13- 01:57 PM               

Yes, Conservatives also have their PC, that's why I said to you above that they (Conservatives) also say and do dumb things. However, again like I said above, this particular PC incident smells of liberalism. Since I am having to repeat myself, maybe you're the one who should LEARN HOW TO READ!

>"What I'm saying is that what you think of as "liberal" is a caricature that exists only in the US"....and your point is?

Since I live in the US (you don't?) and the PC distortion being discussed occured in the US, what are complaining about....other than the fact that I have exposed the stupidity of your own liberalness.

posted 01-13- 02:00 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by DanW:
LOL

Jihad Jerry is about to have a heart attack!!

---

I wouldn't expect Taliban Dan to know the meaning of truth since he rarely speaks it. Thanks for living up to your image DanWimp.

posted 01-13- 03:11 PM               

Liberal = Politically correct crazies (as you always assume)

then we can justifiably say:

Conservative = Fascist extremist crazies

Do it to us and we're forced to do it back to you to get our point across. If we take the high road, we get screwed. Gore tried it after the election, being very concerned about how both he and the Democratic party would be perceived, but he could not stop a Republican machine which cared only about winning.*

posted 01-13- 04:22 PM               

Yes, I think it would be reasonable to change one or two of the firefighters to look like white firefighters. Again, all I'm saying is that since NYC firefighters come from various ethnicities, it is reasonable to depict the firefighters in the statue as coming from various ethnicities.

But either way, it's not a big deal for me. All I'm saying is that it's reasonable to mix it up.

Now, let's get back to your argument...

First you say that the ethnicities depicted in the statue aren't relevant...

"Why do we have to insert ethnicity as a mandatory requirement for any statue? Why is the race of the depicted firemen so important? "AMERICANS" were killed."

On that point we both agree, right?

Then, you go on to vehemently insist that all the firefighters in the statue should be depicted as white firefighters.

Am I the only one who sees the disconnect here?

To solve this contradiction that exists in your mind, you tell us that the statue needs to be an exact copy of the photo it's based on. Why? If the race of the firefighters is not relevant to what the piece is about, then why does it matter to you what ethnicities are depicted in the statue? After all, we already have the photo, don't we?

posted 01-13- 04:43 PM               

Only because I belive we should teach our children the truth. If the statue is to represent an actual event it should portray that event truthfully. Actual historic and patriotic events shouldn't be portrayed inaccurately.

posted 01-13- 08:20 PM            

If so, you are a moron...well, I guess that goes without saying.

posted 01-13- 08:31 PM               

If something "symbolic" should be built, then it should be of 3 men raising their hands together (a la Socialist Realist Statue), but eroding the thruth of an event only erodes the value of the symbolism that is to be foisted on the future.

Rock on Jerry.

posted 01-13- 11:28 PM            

Jerry is backed up against the wall as usual and must resort to pity personal attacks....pathetic.

"In otherwords, Taliban Dan, since we have been lied to before we should tolerate, even encourage, the continuation of lying."

No you stupid shit. You said this: "Only because I belive we should teach our children the truth." Well, we fucking HAVEN'T been teaching the children the truth, and this is nothing new, that's the point I was trying to make. Open ears, insert information. Hey, I agree with you, they should just put the three honkys that raised the flag up on the statue. But it's a fucking statue and not a history book. Let the people are involved in the statue make the decision.

"Maybe in Texas that's true, but the rest of us hope to improve things."

Riiiiiight. So bitching and whining about a fucking statue memoralizing 300+ dead firefighters is really doing a lot to improve things? Well, sign me up then. Those folks died doing their job, I'm sure if you asked them, they wouldn't give a rats ass who was on the statue. If you want to improve things, then watch TLC or the Discovery Channel and appreciate what they do for society.

"Why don't you swallow a .38 and end your miserable existence DanWimp?"

1. I'm not miserable. You are the one jumping up and down over a piece of bronze.

2. How would your wife be sexually satisified, pinky? Get it?

"You know the definition of a Texan? A Mexican looking for Oklahoma who got lost."

That's actually pretty funny. Plus, your racist side is starting to come out. Good job. So I guess your hero Dubbya is a Mexican that got really lost then huh?

"Society has no room for improvement in your world."

Actually, your statement has a lot of truth to it. We still kill each other for no reason other than ethnicity and religion. That hasn't changed since the dawn of time. Big empires that run most of the planet are hell bent on trying to control every other culture on the planet. Yeah, I guess your right...society really is fucked. Good observation. Sure, we can cure diseases and fly to the moon, but we still hate each other.

We wouldn't even need the statue if we hadn't pissed off 99.9% of the world's Arab population. We did something to piss them off, and now it's gonna cost us and them in both men and material. So, technically, we haven't learned a fucking thing in all these years. They are the bad guys to us, we are the bad guys to them. We carpet bomb them into the stone age and they try and terrorize us. Still, neither of us learn a damn thing.

You are so worried about protecting and preserving history, yet few people actualy embrace history and actually uses it as a tool. As much as history is about fact, it is also about 'why did this happen'. Someone 40 years from now is gonna look at that statue and see 3 firefighters hoisting an American flag over a world landmark that was destoyed. How many people will look at that statue and wonder why that stuatue is there in the first place? What events caused the the need for it? The depiction of the men on the statue has little relevance 40 years from now ... the focus is on the significance of the statue and what is memorializes and not the actual men who are depicted in the statue.

But hey, I'm with you....pus the original guys on the statue.

I also think I'll take a pass on your suggestion about putting a slug through my head...but thanks for the advice anyway.

So continue with your humorous insults and what not, they are actually kinda entertaining.

posted 01-14- 01:27 AM               

My racist side? Making fun of Texans? I know you guys have bloated egos but...a whole race? I think not. A sub-species maybe.

Did you ever ask your mother why we don't teach our children the truth? She was a teacher, right? If we teach lies to our children how do you know if she ever taught you the truth? Can you give me some example of the lies they teach in Texas? Other than football is the state religion. How do you know they are lies if you didn't learn the truth somewhere? Correspondence school maybe? If you don't belive what you were taught how come you keep spewing your igorance on this board? If you were brainwashed by lies in school just ask me, I'll tell you the truth. LOL

You said, "Jerry is backed up against the wall as usual and must resort to pity personal attacks....pathetic." I believe you called me a "fucking idiot" first. I guess in Texas that's not getting personal. My you have strange ways down there....guess that's what happens when you marry your first cousins.

Glad I entertain you. Nice change of pace from the comic books aren't I?

Talk to you later shit-for-brains.

posted 01-14- 05:40 AM               

-Do you agree Scully?

posted 01-14- 12:00 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jerry+:
Yes, Conservatives also have their PC, that's why I said to you above that they (Conservatives) also say and do dumb things. However, again like I said above, this particular PC incident smells of liberalism.

---

You started by saying that your complaint is about the PCness of the issue. Right? And you freely admit that _anyone_ can do PC things, right?

So basically you're demonstrating that your argument has nothing to do with PC behaviour, or the actual events going on. It's just a convenient excuse to whine about "those liberals".

quote:

---

Since I live in the US (you don't?) and the PC distortion being discussed occured in the US, what are complaining about.

---

I'm complaining about the current moronic excuse for political debate, where every behaviour is ascribed to someone's imagined political world-view.

Forget about trying to understand WHY someone is doing something, nah, they're just being liberal (or right-wing).

quote:

---

...other than the fact that I have exposed the stupidity of your own liberalness.

---

I'm a staunch conservative.

But since I disagree with you, I must be supporting the stupidity, right? And since I'm supporting the stupidity, that must make me a liberal! Because liberals are stupid! See, see?

Let me illustrate:

You: all liberals are purple
Me: you're wrong
You: exactly what I would have expected a liberal to say!

Way to make an argument.

quote:

---

By the way Spanky is Canadian and he sees the folly in changing the race of the firemen in the statue also.

---

What, you don't think I see the folly? Geezus h keee-rist, have you read a word I posted?!

My complaint is simple. You've seen stupidity, fine. But not content to leave it at that, you have to explain WHY it's stupid (as if it needs an explaination). And what better non-thinking solution to that problem than to blame it on "those liberals"?

I mean, you could actually look up what actually happened, and who was actually involved, and why they did what they did. But that's too much like work. So nah, I'll just be ignorant and flaunt it.

So that makes _you_ politically correct. You're complaining about people doing something stupid in the name of pre-defined political beliefs, and then to prove it you do something stupid in the name of your own pre-defined political beliefs.

Now do you understand my complaint? I've said this three times now. Sheesh, do I have to do a trephining before this sinks in?

posted 01-14- 12:43 PM               

However, if I wanted to discuss this in a reasonable and objective manner I would have posted it in Off Topic. This way I get to light a fire under JT and DanW and watch them squirm. Where else can we act like assholes and get away with it? LOL

posted 01-14- 06:53 PM            

2.7% African American
3.2% Hispanic
0.6% Asian
93.5% White

posted 01-15- 03:38 PM               

Hey JT, why even think of changing it if racism is not an issue? YOU are the one thinking about changing it! You are so full of crap it kills me!

Here you say that WE are the ones making abig deal about it... that WE have decided to care - and you act all innocent like you are not concerned. But I hate to tell you that YOUR view is the view that made the big deal and had to CHANGE a perfectly innocent image into a statement about race. THIS is fucking PC getting OUT OF CONTROL.

These few people who make us change an innocent statue of an event that actually happened that hurt NO ONE! They want to see a fantacy world potrayed showing their fairy land where 1/3rd of the fire fighters where black or what have you.

You said it JT - this is about the FIRE FIGHTERS who died... not about race! Who is caring about race here? We have a famous image... someone makes it into a statue... all innocent... now it must be remade BECAUSE OF RACE.

This is now a RACE statue, 100% - and an insult to ALL fire fighters, even black and asian.

But then again, its just a freekin' statue - I don't really care that much. I save my concern for things that cost me and other productive citizens money via taxes.