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Author
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Topic: America, love it or leave it!
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Smokey
Pilot
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posted 10-19- 03:33 PM
   
Subject: America (LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT) Broken Arrow, Oklahoma School officials remove "God Bless America" signs
from schools in fear that someone might be offended.
Channel 12 News in Long Island, New York, orders flags removed from the
newsroom and red, white, and blue ribbons removed from the lapels of
reporters. Why? Management did not want to appear biased and felt that our
nations flag might give the appearance that "they lean one way or
another".
Berkeley, California bans U.S. Flags from being displayed on city fire
trucks because they didn't want to offend anyone in the community.
Florida Gulf Coast University ordered all "Proud to be an American" signs
removed so as to not offend international students.
I, for one, am quite disturbed by these actions of so-called American
citizens; and I am tired of this nation worrying about whether or not we
are
offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on
September 11, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of
Americans. However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled in New
York
and Washington D.C. when the "politically correct" crowd began complaining
about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.
I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is
seeking a better life by coming to America. In fact, our country's
population is almost entirely comprised of descendants of immigrants;
however, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our
country, and apparently some native Americans, need to understand.
First of all, it is not our responsibility to continually try
not to offend you in any way. This idea of America being a
multi-cultural community has served only to dilute our
sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans, we have
our own culture, our own society, our own language, and our
own lifestyle. This culture, called the "American Way" has been
developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by
millions of men and women who have sought freedom. Our
forefathers fought, bled, and died at places such as Bunker
Hill, Antietam, San Juan, Iwo Jima, Normandy, Korea, Vietnam,
We speak English, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any
other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society -
learn
our language! "In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some
off-the-wall, Christian, Right Wing, political slogan - it is our national
motto. It is engraved in stone in the House of Representatives in our
Capitol and it is printed on our currency. We adopted this motto because
Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation; and
this is clearly documented throughout our history. If it is appropriate
for
our motto to be inscribed in the halls of our highest level of Government,
then it is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our
schools.
God is in our pledge, our National Anthem, nearly every patriotic song,
and
in our founding documents. We honor His birth, death, and resurrection as
holidays, and we turn to Him in prayer in times of crisis. If God offends
you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new
home,
because God is part of our culture and we are proud to have Him.
We are proud of our heritage and those who have so honorably defended our
freedoms. We celebrate Independence Day, Memorial Day, Veterans Day, and
Flag Day. We have parades, picnics, and barbecues where we proudly wave
our
flag. As an American, I have the right to wave my flag, sing my national
anthem, quote my national motto, and cite my pledge whenever and wherever
I
choose. If the Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam,
then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.
The American culture is our way of life, our heritage, and we are proud of
it. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we
really don't care how you did things where you came from. We are
Americans,
like it or not, this is our country, our land, and our lifestyle.
Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion
about our government, culture, or society, and we will allow you every
opportunity to do so. But once you are done complaining, whining, and
griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of
life,
I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great American freedom,
the right to leave.
Barry Loudermilk
If you agree, pass this onto other Americans!!
It is time to take a stand!!
IP: Logged |
Snickers
Pilot
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posted 10-19- 03:54 PM
And each one of these acts not only offends _me_ but is, to my mind treasonous. Political correctness is nothing but a form of brain washing. In this case, being used by the adversary to drive a wedge into our union for the purposes of splitting it.------------------
Snickers
=FC=
Thou shalt maintaineth altitude, lest the earth rise up and smite thee.
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Lothar
Pilot
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posted 10-19- 04:05 PM
As an agnostic, I think that the seperation of church and state is one of the great things about this country. I don't give a rat's ass what religion the founders were - keep it out of the government.IP: Logged |
Snickers
Pilot
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posted 10-19- 04:30 PM
Lothar -
I bet you never handle money then do you? Each and every bill (and coin) says "In God We Trust".
Under the constitution, you are granted freedom of relegion, _not_ freedom from relegion...How does that apply to what channel 12 did? During war time, normal rules don't apply. This is from the minutes of the Broken Arrow School Council... "...Be it resolved that patriotic displays and signs including statements such as "God Bless America" may be posted for patriotic purposes..." So what made them change their mind?
------------------
Snickers
=FC=
Thou shalt maintaineth altitude, lest the earth rise up and smite thee.
IP: Logged |
Lothar
Pilot
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posted 10-19- 04:48 PM
Yes, there are a lot of God references in our culture, even within our government. A certain amount of it probably isn't preventable, even though it is hypocritical. After all, if a school wanted to put "Zeus bless America", the Christians would go ape-shit, because its the "wrong" god.This country was created as a place in which you could practice your religion (or lack of religion) without it being endorsed or persecuted by the Government. Why can't people realize what a great concept this is? IP: Logged |
Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 10-19- 05:46 PM
The god thing alone is why I love living in Canada. I don't think religion should have anything to do with goverment. And it should stay out of non christian schools. The rest of the PC stuff is crap though. IP: Logged |
Psi
Pilot
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posted 10-19- 06:11 PM
I got news for both of you dumb ass, you know who you are, if we didn't have this belief system and people didn't find a spirtual to fight neither of you would be here to tell us how you hate the word "God" In MOST cases if "we the people" would NOT have had the impression of God in our minds when we went off to battle we would not have the fight, don't believe it, that just shows your ignorance. Spanker I'm glad you live in Canada too, your too much of a pussy to live in a FREE country where you can believe anything you want!!!P Very well stated Snick, Smokey IP: Logged |
Jerry
Pilot
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posted 10-19- 08:32 PM
Why is it OK for the entire Congress to sing "God Bless America" on the steps of the Capitol Building (9/12/01) and all these local govt's/schools/ACLU,etc. get upset when some other gov't. department uses the word God?IP: Logged |
Smokey
Pilot
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posted 10-19- 09:04 PM
Not my words, although I agree with what
it says, just put it out for you guys to
see. I'm told by some very good sources that more people got religion in a fox hole fighting
for this country than in church. [This message has been edited by Smokey (edited 10-19-2001).] IP: Logged |
Werner Molders
JAG
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posted 10-19- 09:46 PM
In its own way secular society is a religious doctrine, and if you follow that assumption a legitimate argument could be made that we do in fact live in a theocratic state. Our "temples" are banks and financial institutions, our "God" is the market economy, its "prophet" the (almighty) dollar, or the almighty 67 cents, US.  "our" referring to the fact that its "our" government which created this system at our inception as a country. Back to traditional religion and the religion of the market economy though, fanatics exist on both sides - those who carry out acts of intolerance or hatred "justified" by a twisted interpretation of their faith. The examples in traditional religion are obvious and well publicised, but there exist secular fanatics as well. These are the people who actively and aggresively seek the erosion of the freedom of people who practice religion to exercise their faith as they choose to, or who attempt to marginalize religious groups or religious people as a whole via what can only be described as propaganda. This happens all the time in Canada, and elsewhere (as evidenced by the first post in this thread). When something as simple as "God Bless America" signs are being taken down, while at the same time a song bearing that name rings out in sports stadiums, you can see this struggle taking place. Those people who choose religion, and who don't seek to condemn or convert agnostics, atheists or people of other faiths, should have as much a right to express their views as people who do not choose a traditional religion, but rather the religion of modern western society. Think I'm talking out my ***? How about the CBC, who on the day of the attacks had a commentator saying that the perpetrators could just as easily be anti-abortionists from the "religious right" in the United States. WTF?? That's totally asinine. Hmm, lets see, we want to stop abortion so we're going to hit a major global financial centre. This commentator is a prime example of the kind of the secular fanatics I'm talking about.It is for that reason that I find it funny to say religion and government should be kept separate - unfortunately the two are inextricably linked, again religion in a broader context. Werner ------------------
Abbeville Field: Dedicated to the SDOE Experience. IP: Logged |
Lothar
Pilot
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posted 10-19- 10:27 PM
Werner, I'm sure they are refering the the anti-abortion "religious right" bombers who kill people to make their political point.I presume the "Zeus bless America" signs in school would be OK with you then? You are for religious freedom, aren't you? If the Christian god is the only god that is allowed to be endorsed by the Government, then I'm afraid you don't "get" what this country is about. Maybe this should go to flame wars? [This message has been edited by Lothar (edited 10-19-2001).] IP: Logged |
Diego Lozano
Pilot
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posted 10-19- 10:36 PM
I always wonder why people like Barry Loudermilk get quoted. All I got out of it was a thinly veiled "blame it all on the minorities". He makes it seem like the folks in Broken Arrow, Long Island and Berkley are being threatend somehow by those "terrible minorities". Why cant he just say that there are some very weak officials and politicians in the United States? Love it or Leave it? Whatever.... IP: Logged |
Psi
Pilot
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posted 10-19- 10:54 PM
I think you give a good point Werner, if I read it right, that no mater the freedom and what it stands for we are all given the freedom of choice. This for example is the freedom for an atheist to say I don't believe or the agnostic to say it hasn’t been proven to me or the Christian to say it works for me without persecution. The freedoms that we do have are the issue not the paper or ink they’re written in - with. I as a Christian didn’t intend for any of you to know this about me but it would seem that there some here that want nothing more than for us to hear what they feel about our beliefs, with prejudice. “In God we trust” is a staple of Americana and as far as the initial thread I say America love it or kiss my migrant ass…P
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Jerry
Pilot
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posted 10-20- 12:13 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Lothar:
If the Christian god is the only god that is allowed to be endorsed by the Government, then I'm afraid you don't "get" what this country is about.Maybe this should go to flame wars? [This message has been edited by Lothar (edited 10-19-2001).]
Lothar, who said anything about a "Christian" God? God is the English word for a supreme being. America is an English speaking country. Zeus is from the Greek and never did mean "supreme being" and is known, even by the Greeks, to be a myth. Do you know of anyone who still worships Zeus? To say "Zeus bless America" is equivalent to God Bless America is zeus damn silly. The vast majority of the world accepts the existance of God, Allah, Dios, Gott, etc. depending on whatever language is used or culture a person is from. "God" doesn't refer to a particular religion. You're confusing your anti-Christian bias with your agnositicism. IP: Logged |
Werner Molders
JAG
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posted 10-20- 03:09 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Lothar:
If the Christian god is the only god that is allowed to be endorsed by the Government, then I'm afraid you don't "get" what this country is about.
I never suggested that was the case, I was trying to point out in response to Spanky's post that a purely secular government is a form of religion in its own way - I was just trying to raise a different viewpoint I thought might contribute constructively to the discussion. I'm not advocating one form of government or another, and that post does not betray my particular beliefs (or lack thereof) on the subject of faith and religion. My point was that intolerance exists on all sides, including some individuals in the secular community. Certainly, God Bless America, Allah Bless America, Zeus Bless America... works for me, I don't see anything wrong with that. Our cultures embrace diversity and harmonious coexistance, I don't see why that shouldn't apply to something like that, too. I certainly hope I haven't missed the point about what the US is about, I think I "get" it, anyways.  As for the religious right, in Canada at least that term is used to characterize (stereotype, frankly) a large part of the population in the Western part of the country, notably my province, who vote conservatively en masse, and a large proportion of whom are religious, the majority of those one of the many denominations of Christianity. Saying the religious right is quite possibly behind it is grossly inaccurate when a tiny fraction of the so-called religious right kill people with sniper rifles. If I said similar things about African-Americans, Jews, Muslims or pretty much anyone else, I'd instantly be branded a bigot. Funny that it doesn't work both ways. Werner ------------------
Abbeville Field: Dedicated to the SDOE Experience. IP: Logged |
casualty26ac
Pilot
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posted 10-20- 03:21 PM
To many people, organized religion represents the ultimate hypocrisy. My religion teaches that sex in nearly any instance is wrong, but will take children on a group trip to see a WWF match. It's obvious what they learn from this. Preachers talk about God's love for all creation, yet mention no responsibility whatsoever for the treatment of animals. Also, a congregation mixing different ethic backgrounds never occurs in my experience. I've never seen a Black or Hispanic person in church while growing up.
Most preachers I've seen don't preach the Bible, but rather their own convictions and prejudices.
So IMHO, what we end up with is an exclusionary social club that may say something like, "Love it or leave it." I'm not talking about the true teachings of Jesus either-it's just they've been corrupted to the point that I can't see them in organized religion. So do only churchgoers truly love Jesus? Are the flag wavers the only ones that love their country? Must I love every aspect of my country? Can I be anymore lame?
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Jeeves
JAG
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posted 10-20- 03:39 PM
Well-- it's an interesting topics with some good views, so I will keep it here. But please cut the petty attacks on each other, eh? ------------------
Brought to you by the campaign for a better Dauntless! Jeeves =FC= IP: Logged |
BurkeyMK2
Pilot
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posted 10-20- 05:09 PM
To call such things politically incorrect is ridiculous. Its a proud tradition, nothing else and its not forced on anybody. Queen of England is also head of the church of England, should that be changed? I think if you really take issue with such things you need to relax... IP: Logged |
Jerry
Pilot
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posted 10-20- 07:49 PM
You're right Burkey. Zeus Save the Queen just doesn't cut it. IP: Logged |
Lothar
Pilot
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posted 10-20- 09:08 PM
Hey Jerry, I would think the Queen would want all the help she could get. Why alienate gods that happen to be out of fashion? Why not throw in "Tree spirit save the Queen" too? IP: Logged |
BurkeyMK2
Pilot
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posted 10-20- 09:25 PM
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Sv
JAG
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posted 10-20- 10:20 PM
The idea of freedom of religion was intended, in early America, to mean "freedom of Chistian denomination." The founding fathers did not plan for Muslims.But so we have freedom of ALL religion here now, great! But this does NOT mean that people in the government or schools can't "be" religious- and they indeed are. Seperation of Church and state really only means that the government can not select an official religion (denomination) and can not make any other religious illegal to practice. So all this talk is silly, since any government group can say "God" all they want and it should not stress anyone out in any way. Unless you want to fight about them not being your religion- and that brings us back to the start! Don't bother about it- that is the whole point. Making a school take down a "God bless America" sign IS the exact definition of religious descrimnination. Political correctness is as bad as Nazism or Communism and must be stopped. I'm no Christian, but I know my roots when I see them, and so proud I am. Also Christians tend to make up the best Americans around, better luck to them. In God we trust. God bless America. And God smite our enemies, every last one. Amen. [This message has been edited by Sv (edited 10-20-2001).] IP: Logged |
Sv
JAG
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posted 10-20- 10:25 PM
Something that annoys me:Remember when Bill Mahr of "Politically Incorrect" got slammed for calling out soldiers cowards? First off, it was not meant in a serious way - it was taken out of context, and its a bloody comedy show. But besides all that: Some Bush folk said some comments about Bill Mahr's statement to the effect that people shoudl watch what they say these days and be more sensitive. Some people went nuts and called this - get this! - of all things, un-constitutional LOL!!!!!!!!!! So I see... Bush's spoke people don't get freedom of speach, only crappy commedy shows on TV. Ha! It is not like the Bush statement was a law, or was to made into law, or had anything to do with law!!!! It was just a statment... an idea, a thought, a point of view. People have so little idea of what America is really about... I blame the 60's. IP: Logged |
casualty26ac
Pilot
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posted 10-21- 12:26 AM
Okay, everyone will hate me for this…
SV, you say, "Political correctness is as bad as Nazism or Communism and must be stopped." Political correctness, as for as I've seen, is nothing more than a way to be civilized. The chastisement received from an "error" is no more or less than that of someone that refuses to bow their heads during the Lord's Prayer.
Perhaps it can be taken too far, but it's not a law to be stopped. Do you weed out those that don't use racial slurs?
In certain situations, I don't want to offend anyone. I wouldn't want to go to a black friend's family celebration, and refer to any of his family as "Boy." That could be bad for me, and it wouldn't be political correctness. No need for anyone to worry about political correctness anyway.
I actually read the slur "Towel Head" used in reference to human beings on more than one message board. We can openly reduce another human being to a towel and a head. Unbelievable.
And God? Money is the American God---even ours laws reflect that. Things which we know are absolute wrong are legal as long as they make money for someone. In most circles money equals morality. I don't think the Judeo-Christian God would care if his name weren't on the money we print. I doubt he looks down in approval when someone exchanges a 20 for The latest Back Street Boy CD. That's probably not a transaction he cares to be associated with. Again, I'm not punting the teachings of Jesus Christ.
I'm proud of my heritage too. Just the other day my Grandfather put an American flag right beside the old, faded rebel flag on his truck hehe.
[This message has been edited by casualty26ac (edited 10-21-2001).]
[This message has been edited by casualty26ac (edited 10-21-2001).] IP: Logged |
Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 10-21- 03:26 AM
PSI said, "Spanker I'm glad you live in Canada too, your too much of a pussy to live in a FREE country where you can believe anything you want!!!" Since when can I not belive anything I want in Canada? Whats holding me back? Really Canada and the USA are pretty freaking similar, I'm GLAD one of the differences is that christians don't seem to permeate society and goverment as much as in the states. I'm happy about that It freaking rules. Thank freaking ZEUS!
I'm not going to get in an argument about what a freaking crutch organized religion is, just know that I belive its fucking bullshit and has caused more problems then it has solved. Just look to the middle east to see what I mean.
What I really want to know is why I can't belive what I want just cause I live in Canada instead of the states. PSI? When is the thought police going to crack down on me? And why? Besides not beliving in your god/s. casualty26ac said, "To many people, organized religion represents the ultimate hypocrisy." Ex-FUCKING-aclty.
Thou shall not kill.
"LETS BOMB THE FUCK OUT OF AFGANASTAN" Love thy neighbour. "NUKE THEM ALL" Does anyone realize how fucked that is? And no I'm not saying don't bomb them. I'm saying drop the relgion if you can't even make a freaking honest attempt at following it. [This message has been edited by Spanky the Mad Dog (edited 10-21-2001).] IP: Logged |
Sv
JAG
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posted 10-21- 08:04 AM
Certailnly casualty26ac, there must be some good intnetions for the rise of PC.But to me, PC means state-sanctioned attitudes. If you say that PC is around today to make up for the fact that we USED TO have PC in the form of Christian values... that we all shared in common, then I say you are right! That is true, PC could be the BEST thing to ever happen... a peer pressure to share certain good values. But what has happened is, just like in Nazi Germany, is that the PC values are here to REPLACE the old Christian values. In stead of "Love Thy Neighbor" you get "Embrace Diversity." Two very different things. Most PC values favor the liberal government view on life... that does not make them at all wrong, but if you don't have those views, having them imposed on you if no differnet than being forxed to attend state church. I don't believe in deversity, I believe that devirsity to an extreme leads to weakness and a situation impossible for democracy to thrive in. I ACCEPT others and do not harm them, but I feel free to mock those that are different from me in ways that offend me. People who believe in communism for example... I would not hurt them, I might even hire them for a job if they are good at something... but I do not accept their views and feel free to call them commie's or commie bastards when they are not around. I really don't hate the poor guys... this is just a fact of life... people DO stereotype- it will always happen, it is critical for our survival and for us to be able to evaluate our world. I see some people and they look threatening... other people look safe. I avoid the dangerous-looking people. They *might* be great guys under that mean exterior, but I'm not hanging around to find out... PC is worst in schools... where schools spend most of the day teaching children certain opinions and assumptions about life. They can do this because it is sacntioned by the state... it is "politcaly correct." Remember that politicaly correct ideas are only liberal ideas... this is a liberal term. For liberals, PC is a genious invention and somehting they should be very proud of, it works great! It has changed the world! In fact, even I am thankful for the way it has helped the environment. (One of my few liberal positions.) But it is the job of conservitives is to either create some conservitive PV views (yuk!) or just fight againt the idea than any view on life should be sanctioned by the state - ie, enforced by society as if "EVERYONE believes X, so you MUST as well." Right now things are as they should be a suppose, liberals love PC, moderates mock it at some level but still use itwhen it suits them, and conservitives hate it. But when you break down PC into what it really is, it is a good pure notion... the idea that some views in life are just right for everyone. I believe this... there are some things that we should all share to make the world a better place and allow those things that diversify us to be more fun and manageable. But I'm not parting with the "towel-head" thing. Humor is always outside the PC court, even for liberals. I don't think most people using terms like this today are doing it to villian0ize the enemy- it is much more a joke because it just souds funny to people who don't wear towels on their heads. Lets face it, we spend more time kissing out enemies ass these days... most of my more liberal friends are thinking about become Muslims after all this pro-islam media ;( IP: Logged |
Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 10-21- 09:03 AM
Wa, I just read my post to my GF. Crazy. Thou shall not kill. Its a huge rule, a major rule of that religion. Its set in stone, LITERALY SET IN STONE. BY GOD HIMSELF. How can you go around this and not be a hypocrite?
THOU SHALL NOT KILL!
I don't see the room for reinterpitation.
Of course since I'm not christian I totally belive in killing if the matter dictates. But I don't have a crutch I need to lean on. Except maybe candy. IP: Logged |
Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 10-21- 09:11 AM
Thou shall not covet thy neighbours wife. EXCEPT IF SHE'S FREAKING HOT,
and its a tuesday
and I say 5 hail marys
and she covets me back
and I give her husband 5 goats as payment.
Yeah thats it.
Sweet, got around that rule easy. K NEXT!
Thou shall not worship a false idol.
Unless she is a porn star. Or the president. OR MONEY. COLD HARD CASH, BLACK GOLD, TEXAS TEA. Like people have always said making money is some peoples religion, people dedicate their lives to it, its more important then god (seems like some preachers are the best at this). Isn't that worshiping a false idol? Anyways, back to real life. IP: Logged |
Psi
Pilot
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posted 10-21- 11:30 AM
quote:
“I'm not going to get in an argument about what a freaking crutch organized religion is, just know that I belive its fucking bullshit and has caused more problems then it has solved. Just look to the middle east to see what I mean.
I agree with that but it’s not to say that for the individual and his own beliefs it’s a bad thing. I choose to believe and you choose not to, so what. quote:
“casualty26ac said, "To many people, organized religion represents the ultimate hypocrisy."
Ex-FUCKING-aclty.
Casualty said it but it’s not exactly accurate, yes there are fanatics all over the world and would have you believe their way is the only way but, it’s not to say that religion for the individual is a wrong way. Just like no one is telling you, you can’t look at your porn everyday. quote:
“Of course since I'm not christian I totally belive in killing if the matter dictates.
But I don't have a crutch I need to lean on.”
I’m not going to bother to explain to this forum the differences between you and I, they’re obvious! But I will say that the majority of people here is a live and let live society, except you. You show your intelligence (lack of) when you take the words of my god and adulterate them.
Lets just pretend for a moment there is a god, how do you see yourself, like I do. Like the some of the others do.
What I meant about being a pussy and living in Canada was to say you couldn’t say that shit to my face and still be standing! Live your life the way you see fit but know that someday may come, even for the non-believer…
PPs you also show your intelligence (lack of) with your grammar
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casualty26ac
Pilot
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posted 10-21- 12:46 PM
SV, I see what you mean on a lot of that. The road to hell is often paved with good intentions, but I'd rather be on the side that at least aspires to being good. The peer-pressure obviously goes both ways; liberal and conservative alike use these devices. A person concerned with the environment is a "Treehugger," or of all things, a "Do-gooder." If you can't think of anything worse to call someone than a "Do-gooder," they're not that bad in my book.
"Look at that guy over there doing good. I hate him. Who does he think he is? He's trying to save our children's future, the idiot. Glad I don't really care about my kids or the planet. I like arsenic in our water. I'll never recycle just to show him. The jerk."
Religious leaders have often invented or misappropriated new terms to justify doing really awful things. So religion is linked to government here in one way for sure---they say what our government does is right so the people don't have to worry about morals. It's a temporary lapse while we make more money. Boy, that Manifest Destiny sure hurt some Native Americans. Oh, and slavery was also endorsed until a few very brave and thoughtful Christian leaders said, "that's wrong!" And coming to that conclusion took a long time.
I know everyone isn't bad. Here's a quote from Thomas Paine, "The moral duty of man consists of imitating the moral goodness and beneficence of God manifested in the creation, toward all his creatures..." Is that not lovely?
We've always had a weapon in one hand and a Bible in the other---not very Christ-like. I hope everyone can see the humor in my other posts. I forget to place smile emoticons-are they PC too?
[This message has been edited by casualty26ac (edited 10-21-2001).] IP: Logged |
Smokey
Pilot
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posted 10-21- 01:36 PM
The only problem with do-gooders is they tend
to force their do-goodness on others.It's always been puzzling to me that all
relegions (at least main stream ones) have
the same goal in mind, that is to make man,
and therefore the world, better. They sure
manage to do a lot of fighting to try and
accomplish the same thing. [This message has been edited by Smokey (edited 10-21-2001).] IP: Logged |
Jerry
Pilot
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posted 10-21- 02:01 PM
So what if religion is a crutch? Everyone needs something to get through life, even Spanky. Most people need a belief in a supreme being and the commradship of people who share that belief. So what? Others need drugs, or a belief in UFO's, or booze. Some people can't survive without the love and support of a spouse or family. To some, money and wealth is needed for peace of mind. As long as the selected "crutch" doesn't hurt anyone (drugs/booze) why condemn it? Being religious doesn't hurt anyone so why condemn it like Spanky and other athiests do? It's only when zealots try to force their religion on others or force people to change their religion that trouble starts. Different Democracy's get along, so do different religions. If the US told England to change it's form of democracy to match ours there would be trouble, but the trouble would be with the US interpretation of democracy not with the institution itself. Same with religion. Spanky and other athiest/agnostics are just as extreme and zealous in their non-belief as bible-thumping Christains or radical Islamic Mullahs. The world would be better off with none of them. [This message has been edited by Jerry (edited 10-21-2001).] IP: Logged |
Psi
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posted 10-21- 05:17 PM
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Most preachers I've seen don't preach the Bible, but rather their own convictions and prejudices.
So IMHO, what we end up with is an exclusionary social club that may say something like, "Love it or leave it." I'm not talking about the true teachings of Jesus either-it's just they've been corrupted to the point that I can't see them in organized religion. So do only churchgoers truly love Jesus? Are the flag wavers the only ones that love their country? Must I love every aspect of my country? Can I be anymore lame?
Well I will have to say that I’m with you on the adulteration of religion/Bible but if I believed that because it made no sense to consume a good substance because of the “additives” then I don’t think I would be eating. Even your box of Fruit Loops is misrepresented to you the consumer. Nowhere on the label does it say how many grams of animal or insect protein it contains. If you knew you may want to switch to Cocoa Puffs because you think that it has better content, but it to won’t tell you the truth. I’ll tell you a little story about a major corn chip manufacturer, without mention of name. I know people here in Idaho that process corn for this company and during this process many Pheasants, Quail and other birds and animals are also “uptaken” by this cultivation. You won’t read that on the label. So what do you do, stop eating, and this applies to EVERYTHING that is a consumable, even the Bible or religion You also stated that there is no reference to the treatment of the “dumb animal” but there is. So by saying that this is not represented in the Bible is a misrepresentation of the Bible on your part. Therefore you have done what you detest of those that would have you believe their agenda is more important than the true content. You know as well as many people that there are fanatics that believe that their way is the only way, even animal lovers, which I am one. Some people think that their pets can understand when they talk and they believe they can understand their pets. Gary Larson said it best - Bla, bla bla Spunky bla, bla bla…
I do think animals deserve good treatment but should never be held in the same social order as people. (my yellow lab Dug is going to be pissed when he reads this  ) I feel that things such as this should be kept in perspective and not considered to be pivotal in selecting the right course for a decision that will influence a person’s entire life. It’s up to the individual to discern right from wrong in what they consume but one also has to consider the benefits of the consumption, of the entirety. P
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Jerry
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posted 10-21- 05:54 PM
Psi, Yellow Labs and Golden Retrievers are smarter and make better friends than most people. IP: Logged |
Psi
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posted 10-21- 06:36 PM
HAHA, I know and your right. The un-opinionated love without prejudice all for a meal, ya can't beat that P IP: Logged |
casualty26ac
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posted 10-21- 07:16 PM
"You also stated that there is no reference to the treatment of the "dumb animal" but there is. So by saying that this is not represented in the Bible is a misrepresentation of the Bible on your part."
I never said that. I said, "Preachers (they aren't the Bible) talk about God's love for all creation, yet mention no responsibility whatsoever for the treatment of animals." I also said that I'm not punting the teachings of Jesus. I gave my opinion on why some people are uneasy with having religion and government mixed and how they may not feel represented.
"I feel that things such as this should be kept in perspective and not considered to be pivotal in selecting the right course for a decision that will influence a person's entire life." Hindus, Buddhists, St. Francis, and "I require mercy, not sacrifice" (Matthew 9:13 & 12:7) would argue that it should indeed influence a persons entire life.
I feel God's mercy should even reach as far as Canada and Spanky, so brethren PSI we will have to agree to disagree. At least I hope we agree to disagree, because I trusted you with a picture of me
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Psi
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posted 10-21- 09:44 PM
I guess it’s more the inference that you make, especially in the last part of your statement. Don’t you think that the misguidance of some preachers is one of a thousand reasons that some people don’t select religion in their lives? Granted some preachers have a convoluted perception of religion and what should be the topic for the “flavor of the day” in any given religion. And if the preaching is the one thing you have a problem with in your religion then for you, you have a valid point. But your statement is one that could be translated either way, for me it isn’t the package (the point I was trying to make earlier) but rather the contents. To say that the preachers are the reason that people have a bad relationship with their religion do you mean preachers like Martin Luther King Jr. Billy Graham, or even Jesus, all preachers my friend. It would be easy to take a statement like yours the wrong way (that’s the way I read it) and for you to say that isn’t what I meant. What do you mean bro? I guess I missed your point bro
I really can’t see any preacher standing up and saying go home and pet your dog , not when there is so much other crap going on today, I agree, I’m confused, but that’s all.
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because I trusted you with a picture of me
and I trusted you P quote:
I feel God's mercy should even reach as far as Canada and Spanky
This, one could only hope.
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casualty26ac
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posted 10-22- 01:00 AM
"It would be easy to take a statement like yours the wrong way (that's the way I read it) and for you to say that isn't what I meant. What do you mean bro? I guess I missed your point bro I really can't see any preacher standing up and saying go home and pet your dog , not when there is so much other crap going on today."
It really shouldn't be confusing. I didn't say a preacher should say "go home and pet your pet." I said, "Preachers talk about God's love for all creation, yet mention no responsibility whatsoever for the treatment of animals." For anyone that believes the creation account in Genesis, we do have a responsibility, so it's a relevant topic. I was stating the fact that I've never heard it brought up in church. I shouldn't have generalized so much-I should have said I've never heard a preacher address this or any other serious issue in regards to suffering.
But the church IMHO, is too often silent on issues it should lead. Therefore,"To many people, organized religion represents the ultimate hypocrisy." That's how I said it earlier. I understand how they can feel this way, and I often get the same impression.
I love ya P, but really, "What I meant about being a pussy and living in Canada was to say you couldn't say that shit to my face and still be standing! Live your life the way you see fit but know that someday may come, even for the non-believer…"
I warned you what happens when you mix the WWF with Christ's teachings.
Seriously though, go read this when you get time-that's really the kind of thing my inept self was talking about http://www.mcspotlight.org/people/interviews/lyman.html This is direct from a Montana farmer that had a change of heart.
[This message has been edited by casualty26ac (edited 10-22-2001).] IP: Logged |
Psi
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posted 10-22- 07:33 AM
I don't feel you're inept bro infact just the opposite, I will get back to you via personal email. I think we can sort this out, and I appologize for my hot head. I guess I'll never learn a lesson!P IP: Logged |
Jeeves
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posted 10-22- 08:03 AM
One thing my preacher and I talk about quite a bit (we are best friends-- he is not your typical preacher--- 6'4, 280lbs, played semi-pro football in Canada, and three of his favorite activities are drinking beer, smoking a pipe, and fishing....) is how messed up America as a whole is in their morals and priorities.We see a dog or cat or some other animal mistreated or abused on the news and we get so disgusted and offended....and then when they start talking about a woman being raped, or a man murdered, and we think "Gee...that's too bad.....now where did I leave that remote..." Pretty sad, as a whole. Is that a religion thing, or just basic human nature (as desensitized as it is...)? IP: Logged | |
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