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Author Topic:   from NY Times - Why America was attacked
Lothar
Pilot
posted 09-17- 08:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lothar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Americans Don’t Understand That Their Heritage Is Itself a Threat
By CALEB CARR


What Terror Keeps Teaching Us: The Suffering Find Their Champions, and They Are Not All Gandhis (September 23, 2001)



We have heard a great deal of talk to the effect that the world will never be the same after the attacks of Sept. 11, that we are living in a new reality, and in one sense this is true. But this is not the first great and violent historical turning point that the United States has faced. In other words, to put it as Lewis Carroll’s Mad Hatter might have, we have been in this new world before.

America experienced just such a prolonged moment during our own Civil War, when not only armies but also civilians were slaughtered in horrifying numbers because of a long-brewing clash between a dying, slavery-based agrarian society and a vigorous, newly industrial modern state. We weathered another during the days and years following Pearl Harbor, when the majority of Americans had no idea if or where Japanese planes might strike again and were later forced (as we have lately been) to reckon with enemies who were willing to engage in suicidal attacks to achieve their purpose.

Yet perhaps the most immediately pertinent of such precedents is offered by a much earlier conflict. In 1814, the United States was engaged in a bitter war, on land and at sea, with the greatest power in the world, the empire from which we had originally rebelled: Great Britain.

Many analysts of the War of 1812 have tried to explain it as an economic or political conflict of limited importance. But it would have been hard to convince the American civilians who suffered what amounted to terrorist attacks by ruthless British raiding forces between 1812 and 1814 that the conflict was either limited or explicable. The British assaults were astoundingly savage: women and children were mutilated and murdered along with civilian men and soldiers in a deliberate attempt to break the American people’s will to fight. These efforts reached their culmination in the last days of August 1814, when a squadron of British ships loaded with soldiers and sailors sailed into Chesapeake Bay and up the Patuxent River with a terrifying objective: to burn the city of Washington to the ground.

The British force succeeded in this goal. By the night of Aug. 24, the White House, the Capitol, the Library of Congress and many other buildings emblematic of both the newborn capital city and the infant country itself were engulfed in flames. The government had been evacuated at the last minute, its officers (including President James Madison) scattering across the countryside. British action against remaining American soldiers and civilians continued to be, in many cases, merciless.

The questions asked by Americans in the aftermath of this momentous event were some of the same that I have heard all over our city and country in recent days: Why here? Why this?

The War of 1812 had little to do with specific political grievances or economic rivalries. It was prosecuted by the British because of a deep anxiety over the spread of American democratic republicanism. Having seen the bloody anarchy that had overtaken France during its revolution and having watched the United States peacefully and dramatically multiply its territory through the Louisiana Purchase, the British Empire — a stratified society still largely controlled by its aristocracy and constitutional monarchy — had grown deeply fearful that the spread of American-style democratic rebellion would mean not only economic competition abroad but also uprisings at home. In short, the British gratuitously destroyed important structures in Washington (and killed many innocent people) because those buildings were obnoxious symbols of American values whose spread and propagation the London government feared would spell the disempowerment of their own.

The British were right to fear as much, for in time it was indeed the rise of the United States that set the example for populations in colonies around the world to seize their own destinies and put an end to the imperial, socially regimented system on which British power depended. True, in the 20th century the United States and Britain would become allies in order to face the the common enemies of imperial Germany and, later, Nazi and Japanese totalitarianism. Nevertheless, it was the spread of American values that put an end to the colonialism and imperialism that were the practical and spiritual lifeblood of the British Empire.

Similarly, it is the spread of American values — individualistic, democratic, materialistic and, yes, in many ways crass and exploitative American values — that terrorist groups and the traditionalist, socially repressive societies that support them now fear. This fear has driven them to emulate the British forces of 1814 by damaging and destroying a group of structures that are among the most familiar symbols of contemporary American power.

Thus the why. But why here? Washington is perhaps understandable, but why New York?

The engine that runs the juggernaut that is expansionist American democratic capitalism (which is the force that opens the way for American cultural predominance) is housed, chiefly, in a comparatively few high-profile buildings at the southern tip of Manhattan Island. Americans look (or in the case of the World Trade Center, looked) on these buildings as some of the most distinctive symbols of all that our city and nation can achieve and have achieved.

Our enemies in this war, by contrast, looked at them and saw — still see — the death of their own values, their own ways of life, their effective autonomy. Such perception breeds both malice and fear. Inside those buildings, the people behind this attack believe, is where the end of the societies they come from and the values that they live by was and is being planned (whether consciously or not), and there is where the erosion must be stopped. The terrorist obsession with the World Trade Center was, in this light, not irrational. In fact it was, viewed in the context of a war of cultures, entirely understandable.

That context must now be fully realized by our side in this conflict. We must all match the sudden comprehension and bravery of the hijacked passengers aboard United Airlines Flight 93, who, realizing that their plane was going to be used as a flying weapon of mass destruction, immediately rose to challenge their captors, thus sacrificing their own lives to prevent a fourth crash that could have killed thousands more Americans.

The people of this country, it has often been truly said, have a very bad sense of their own heritage, and New Yorkers tend to be among the worst offenders in this area. We have been known to pull down historic structures with remarkably little concern, to crumble and pave over our past in order to make way for what we hope will be an even more profitable future. But there are moments when we must overcome this blind tendency and look to our history for both inspiration and solace. We know in our collective memory the nature of this struggle; that understanding must now move from our subconscious to the very forefront of our minds so that we can accept the full dimensions of the conflict that will very soon engulf the lives of not only New Yorkers and Washingtonians but all Americans.

Yes, this is war, and in all likelihood it will be a vicious and sustained one. What our enemies want is nothing short of an end to our predominance, and they will not forsake terrorism until either they attain that result or we make such behavior prohibitively, horrifyingly expensive. And this worst assault on the United States in its history happened in New York City because it symbolizes all that those same enemies loathe and fear most: diversity, licentiousness, avarice and freedom. Now, as we go about the process of adjusting ourselves to this new world of terrible conflict, we can and must take heart from that one seemingly paradoxical historical observation: both as New Yorkers and as Americans, we have been in this new world before.

Caleb Carr, a novelist and historian, is a contributing editor of ‘‘MHQ: The Quarterly Journal of Military History.’’

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Sunray
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posted 09-17- 09:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sunray   Click Here to Email Sunray     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The War of 1812 was started by the US when they launched an unprovoked attack on what was then the British North American colony of Canada. Called Madison's War by the US newpapers of the time, his purpose was to take over Canada to expand US territory at the expense of The Brits. While they were busy fighting the French under Napoleon.
The American White House, that wasn't white then, and Washington were burned in retaliation for the American attack and subsequent burning of York, now Toronto, earlier in the war. Not, as Carr intimates, some evil British skuldugery. As to the alledged killing of women and children, I've never seen an acount of the attack that says this. In any case, savagery was just part of the 'game'.
In 1812, the world powers were England and France. The United States was nothing. When the US attacked Canada, the British reaction was pretty much the same as the American reaction to the terrs attack on the WTC. You attacked us so we're going to kick your asses.
Carr strikes me as the kind of "historian" who only writes the American side of history. Kind of like the ones who keep saying the US won WW 2 with no mention of any participation of any country other than them and the Brits.
I'm just hoping that when the US gets started with their retaliation, they actually plan what they do instead of just dashing in somewhere and dropping bombs everywhere. Also, anyone who thinks that fighting a ground action in Afghanistan would be easy is nuts. It's a 1000 miles from any ocean. There is nothing there. The people are trained almost from birth to shoot and they shoot very well. Most importantly, no European empire has ever been able to win in Afghanistan. Not the Brits, not the Russians, who've tried it several times and the US won't be able to either.

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Lothar
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posted 09-17- 09:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lothar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I heard someone on the radio from Afganistan say: "they want to bomb us to the stone age, they don't realize we are already there."

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Jerry
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posted 09-17- 10:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jerry   Click Here to Email Jerry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's important to note that Britain and Japan and Germany are close allies today. It can happen again in the middle east.

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3dp
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posted 09-17- 10:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 3dp   Click Here to Email 3dp     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have to agree with Sunray on most points. While we are all biased to varying degrees, it is the job of journalists and historians to try and stay reasonably objective. That does not seem to be the case with several prominent historians these days. As far as WW2, some US-centric authors only grudgingly include the UK since the US fought literally alongside them, and even then spend much of their time just trashing them. It greatly embarasses me as an American.

That said, I don't think any of us (on TV or otherwise) should make blanket statements like we would not be able to win a war in Afghanistan. Not that I particualrly advocate a full fledged land invasion mind you! We could not win in Vietnam everyone said, but the British won a very similar campaign in Malaya from 1948 to 1960. The IRA and the PLO would never come to the negotiating table. They have. We could not stop the slaughter in Bosnia and it was going to become another Vietnam (just like every conflict is supposedly going to whether the condidtions are similar or not). We could not win in Kosovo, but we did. Please don't come back and say there is still this problem or that problem wherever. War is never "clean". WW2 left an incredible mess which we are still dealing with, but I don't think many would say we should not have fought it.

All I'm really saying is that the best we can do is learn from history and try not to repeat the mistakes of the past. Armed forces of many nations have fought in the remotest places on Earth and in every terrain imaginable, and won. The trick is being able to see the way to achieve what you want and then implement it properly, adapting yourself as needed. Many options may be extraordinarily difficult, but to dismiss any as impossible would be foolhardy.

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Snickers
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posted 09-17- 12:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Snickers   Click Here to Email Snickers     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The trick here is not to attack Afghanistan. Rather, help the Afghans topple the Tailban. (Which basically bought its way to power...) That is not to say there will be no troops on the ground. Colin Powell said last week that we had Rangers in there last year....
But this is not an attack from Great Britian Russia or any other country that attacked them in the past. IF there is an attack it comes from the world. Not from a country. Even so, I doubt that it would be a conventional attack. It would probably tend towards hit and run tactics....

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Snickers
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3dp
Pilot
posted 09-17- 01:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 3dp   Click Here to Email 3dp     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just a small tid bit that just occured to me. Helping the Afghans to topple the Taliban would be similar to the Gulf War in one sense since in a way, the Taliban is our Frankenstien's monster, just like Saddam Hussein is. We aided them both when it suited us in the past (Saddam against Iran and the Taliban against the Soviets), so we bear SOME responsibility for the situation on this front.

I stress the word 'some' because I'm not one of those "blame us for everything if we helped out in any way" types. Our assistance would not mean anything if there were not those on the ground elsewhere willing to take our help and use it for their own ends. Theirs is the prime responsibility.

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Pete Hawk
Pilot
posted 09-18- 10:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pete Hawk   Click Here to Email Pete Hawk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Lothar. That was interesting reading. It finally gives me some insight into what this is all about, and why they do what they do.

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3dp
Pilot
posted 09-18- 12:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 3dp   Click Here to Email 3dp     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just a small additional note. I have checked with some history teachers I know and while not absolutely sure, they do not believe that the War of 1812 was any more brutal than any other war of the period.

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Sunray
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posted 09-18- 12:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sunray   Click Here to Email Sunray     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Exactly 3pd, if you've ever seen the ball for a Brown Bess, a .75 Cal lead ball that's 3/4" diameter, you'd realise that it can and did literally take off arms and legs when it hit. And with little or no medical aid....

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mposis
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posted 09-18- 08:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mposis   Click Here to Email mposis     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"Nevertheless, it was the spread of American values that put an end to the colonialism and imperialism that were the practical and spiritual lifeblood of the British Empire."

Maybe the British Empire ended but I'm sure the American Empire still has ways to go.
http://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/littleton/ge1_menu.htm
http://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/littleton/br6912rs.htm

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3dp
Pilot
posted 09-18- 09:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 3dp   Click Here to Email 3dp     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From what I've always been able to gather, the demise of the British Empire was, more than anything, the result of the UK emptying its coffers to defeat Nazi Germany. What the author of the article points too may be true as well to a point, but if my history serves me correctly, most of the rebel movements which sprung up around the world before and after WW2 were Communist and therefore certainly not US-inspired. In the end, I usually find the money trail to be the most significant, so I'll stick with the "Britain could no longer afford an empire" school of thought on this one, not the "US is so great everyone wants to emulate us" explanation.

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wakeup tailgunner
JAG
posted 09-19- 09:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wakeup tailgunner   Click Here to Email wakeup tailgunner     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This guy must live with his head stuck somewhere the sun doesn't shine!

It's funny, in a sick sort of way, that someone like Mr Carr should be spouting Nationalist propaganda at a time when the world should be putting aside Nationalist ideals and becoming closer. No country can do it alone. Forget past differences and we might all stand a chance.

p.s.

quote:
Similarly, it is the spread of American values — individualistic, democratic, materialistic and, yes, in many ways crass and exploitative American values — that terrorist groups and the traditionalist, socially repressive societies that support them now fear.

Does that include the people who supported NORAID and sent money to the IRA ?

Anyway .... I been closer than I wanted to an IRA blast, and one by an anti-semitic bunch too...had my windows rattled by that one.

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Burkey
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posted 09-20- 03:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Burkey   Click Here to Email Burkey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Pete, thats the most breathtaking example of selective reading I have ever encountered..

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Lothar
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posted 09-20- 05:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lothar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You guys sure are touchy about the U.K. Remember, 1812 was 200 years ago, he isn't criticising the modern U.K.

Also, he isn't "spouting Nationalist propaganda". The American democratic ideals that Carr mentions as a threat in 1814 have spread to many nations now (you guys do vote, don't you?). His point is that freedom and liberal societies are threats to the conservative, religion-based theocracies such as Afgahnistan.

Face it, in 1776 the U.S. was an experiment, unique in it's time. In the last 200 years many other countries have seen that it worked and incorporated the democratic system into their own governments. The ideals he calls "American" in 1812 are now the ideals of the majority of nations, including the U.K.

3dp mentions communism as being the most popular form of government rebellion. Huh? Last I checked, both communist countries weren't doing too well.

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3dp
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posted 09-20- 10:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 3dp   Click Here to Email 3dp     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was merely refering to history, not how things ultimately turned out. Britain ceased to be a major world power in the years immediately following WW2. At that time, the Soviet Union was strong and many of the prominent revolutionary movements around the world were Communist inspired, Cuba and Vietnam to mention just a couple. Britain's Empire was long gone when Communism finally crumbled.

As far as being sensitive, we're not. Many of us just don't like it when people draw tenous suppositions from history which are grossly distorted in order to prove a point they think they see. I won't even argue about Britain being upset about the spread of American values in 1812. I readily admit that I know nothing of this. To say that they then waged a deliberately brutal war because of it if the history does not back it up, is just irresponsible. It may be true, but I have yet to talk to anyone who can back up the claim that the War of 1812 was any more brutal than any other contemporary conflict.

Had someone said something which ran contrary to everything I've ever seen or read about Spain for instance, I would have questioned it too.

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3dp
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