...and now from the OH S***! file...(part 2)

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Author	Topic: ...and now from the OH S! file...(part 2)*
Jeeves JAG	posted 04-10- 10:12 PM This is a great discussion-- but I got sick of weeding through 4 pages Keep going guys ------------------ Brought to you by the campaign for a better Dauntless! Jeeves =FC= IP: Logged
Stark Pilot	posted 04-11- 01:44 AM OK.. I'll move it over to here if you guys will... Smokey... what Werner said... Things look like they are moving slow, and in some ways they are, however - the global diplomatic tide seems to be turning against China. Several countries came out today in support of the US (admittedly, they were small ones) which is the first time that has happened in a very long time. The US is, more oftne than not (desrervedly or not too I might add) portrayed as the big bullybad guy in many affairs. For us to have simply used our economic and military clout from the get go would have solidified that view around much of the world. As things stand now we are beginning to appear to be the reasonable party in this encounter - which I'm sure is exactly the opposite of what China wanted/expected. A few more days and we will be able to take economic measures without tarnishing our already ailing global reputation and maybe even improving it a bit. The more I look at it the more I begin to see that this was probably the intention from very early on - and no, I don't think Bush came up with it.. I think Powell did (it is what he gets paid for now...) and the Pres recognized and went with a good idea (which is why Presidents hav advisors after all). I hope all you youngsters (not that I'm an old fart) are taking notes... cause this is quite likely going to be an event your kids will read about in school. As for the EP-3 crashing into the jet while it was making a waypoint turn... yes, it could have happened that way - but even if it did it is still the Chinese pilots fault. Getting close enough to have a collision even be a possibility was idiotic and dangerous - the EP-3 certainly did not attempt to fly a close formation with a Chinese jet. The Chinese initiated the contact in international airspace - that was a choice and making that choice means bearing the potential responsibilities. Short of the US pilot intentionally attempting to wing swat the jet it is the Chinese pilots fault - and I really cannot see a pilot responsible for 23 other lives doing something that suicidal. -Stark [This message has been edited by Stark (edited 04-11-2001).] IP: Logged
Stark Pilot	posted 04-11- 12:51 PM Crap. It wasn't an admission of fault... but still, it will be construed by many to be one. At least the crew is on it's way home. -Stark IP: Logged
Lothar Pilot	posted 04-11- 04:12 PM I don't know, Stark. It seems obvious (to me) that we said what we had to say to get the guys back without actually admitting guilt. We said that we were in their airspace without thier permission, which no one could fault us for since it was after thier jet had rammed and crippled our plane. All in all, a pretty good outcome. We never admitted guilt and we got the guys back in good shape. No one lost thier temper. We are now in a position to determine what our policy on Taiwan, trade, etc. is with a cool head. It couldn't have turned out much better. IP: Logged
Jerry Pilot	posted 04-11- 04:17 PM What does "Sorry we landed on your airbase without permission" mean? Sorry means you wish it hadn't happened. Does it mean that if we had to do it all over again we would prefer that the plane ditch in the ocean and drown 23 people? Does it mean that in any future emergencies we just let the the plane play ship anchor? What if it's an airliner? IP: Logged
Lothar Pilot	posted 04-11- 04:23 PM I don't think it means much. One way to read it is "sorry that you didn't give permission before we landed, next time we hope you give us permission before we land in an emergency". It is common to apologize for unfortunate events even if you would do the same thing again in similar circumstances. IP: Logged
Werner Molders JAG	posted 04-11- 06:27 PM No matter how "precise" the wording of the final letter was, you know the Chinese are going to parade it around as a big victory. Wouldn't we do the same? Perhaps more accurately, aren't we doing the same thing? In any case, I'm glad the Bush administration had the patience to make the best of a bad situation. There is another item to consider though - the plane. Werner ------------------ Visit Abbeville Field Today! IP: Logged
Smokey Pilot	posted 04-11- 10:15 PM I'm wondering what, if anything else, did we agree to. Trade advantages for China? Discontinuing recon flights? Things we'll never hear about. Kinda sounds to me like we sucked the big one. The wording of the agreement allows the US to say we're sorry while letting the Chinese tell their people that the US basically surendered. IP: Logged
Mirthain Pilot	posted 04-11- 11:42 PM Basically all this means is that we won't be Tomahawking every airbase in china and sending seal teams in to rescue the flight crew..... What does it really matter what it means? In this situation noone wins and noone loses. The chinese get to save face and we get our people.... win/win. Best of all, there was no further loss of life or useless saber rattling. The chinese people don't really give a hoot about the US, just as most of us don't really give a hoot about them. So both sides can declare themselves winners, with no real reprecussions. Smokey, there will be those closed door sessions with or without this situation... it is a neccessary part of negotiations with them. I believe that the US played this correctly, and by not backing down, but not overly escalating either, we showed that we will not be cowed into a situation, but we will negotiate before launching a strike... ;} ------------------ Mirthain=FC= IP: Logged
weasel Pilot	posted 04-12- 07:56 AM In some ways I kind of agree with Smokey. I'm wondering what, if anything else, did we agree to. Not to freeze all trade with China? Not to conduct recon flights over mainland China? Things we'll never hear about. Kinda sounds like they pushed the right buttons until China cried uncle. The fact that they let them go this quickly sounds like China basically surendered. weasel IP: Logged
Werner Molders JAG	posted 04-12- 09:35 AM If one of the key US "concessions" was to never overfly mainland China in the future, I'd ROFLOL and say the Chinese are idiots to have accepted that. Firstly if the US was overflying the mainland, they would be violating Chinese airspace without question. If you believe what they're telling you, that's never happened, its always been in international airspace that the flights have taken place. I bet the concession had to do with arms sales to Taiwan, I mean trade is too dynamic a thing to really use as a bargaining tool other than to impose sanctions, but with arms sales you can promise hard figures. Werner ------------------ Visit Abbeville Field Today! IP: Logged
Stark Pilot	posted 04-12- 09:59 PM Hmm... the plot thickens a tiny bit... Our crew claims that they were straight and level on autopilot -the pentagon prepares to release evidence in support of that claim and Bush basically tells the Chinese to stuff it by ordering U-2 flights surveilling China that are out of reach of Chinese fighters. Man, you just gotta love global politics... So now it seems the Jiang has implied he wants to use the plane as a bargainingchip..I wonder if there will be any "mysterious" fires involving that plane in the not too distant future. After todays events I'm not that disappointed at the "apology" any more - our crew is home, safe and sound and telling about attempts ot play mind games with the crew to get them to admit responsibilty and our pres has, now that our people are safe, expressed his distatse for the Chinese tactics while humiliating them by steping up surveillence flights with technology they can't get near enough to cause a problem for. Ahhh... it's a nice day... IP: Logged
Smokey Pilot	posted 04-12- 10:18 PM Not so fast Stark. There is conflict in the republican camp. The hawks want China to pay and are getting more vocal about it. The big business faction wants everyone to take it easy. The next few days may be interesting. IP: Logged
Werner Molders JAG	posted 04-16- 01:28 AM U2 flights over China... LOL I love it. Why not the SR-71 though? Higher, faster, newer... Werner ------------------ Visit Abbeville Field Today! IP: Logged
Spanky the Mad Dog Pilot	posted 04-16- 02:26 AM Werner, I was reading an article saying it wouldn't have happened if the States were still using the SR-71 cause there would be no planes escorting it. But that congress has scrapped the SR-71 program. IP: Logged
Vahnatai Pilot	posted 04-16- 06:13 AM i remember hearing somewhere that the US is still using 3 SR-71's....at least 2 of those by NASA or perhaps all 3 ------------------ IP: Logged
semmern Pilot	posted 04-16- 11:49 AM I think them three SR-71's still are in use 'just in case' something happens and there's a need for a fast recon puppy. Talking about recon flights over China, (Oh, no. Another off-topic lecture by Semmern, you think ) Lockheed also developed the D-21 unmanned drone, to be carried by a B-52, dropped a little outside China, and land at bases in Taiwan or something like that. Nifty little thing, it was almost as fast as the SR-71. IP: Logged
Stark Pilot	posted 04-16- 02:08 PM The main reason they are using the U-2 instead of the SR-71 is loiter time. The U-2 is the ultimate high-altitude slow mover the darned thing almost hovers in a stiff headwind. This makes it ideal for ELINT. It can sit up there for hours absorbing every communication that hits it a storing them for later analysis. The 71, while blaziong fast, is really only useful for photo intel operations - which we can achieve from satellites over just as easily and much more cheaply. The disadvantage to a U-2 versus an EP-3 is real time intel - the crew of the EP-3 can decrypt the incoming messages whilst in flight - giving us up to minute information. Either plane can do the job though. BTW - Friday afternoon I was up by Beale AFB (home of U-2's) and saw a U-2 lift off... very weird to see a plane travelling that slowly climb like that. It almost appears to go up faster than it is going forwards. -Stark IP: Logged
Lothar Pilot	posted 04-16- 05:10 PM The rumour mills have it that the SR-71 was retired because there is now something better. The replacement is as well known today as the SR-71 was in the early sixties. IP: Logged
Jerry Pilot	posted 04-16- 05:30 PM How do you spell Aurora? IP: Logged
Stark Pilot	posted 04-16- 07:47 PM http://www.ilyushin2.net/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000025.html LOL! -Stark IP: Logged
Jerry Pilot	posted 04-16- 09:05 PM Stark, How about, "We're sorry you won't be getting the 2008 Olympics". IP: Logged
semmern Pilot	posted 04-17- 02:48 AM Qutoing the test pilot that unofficially flew the U-2 for the first time, while he was taxying at 50 kts, and the bugger lifted off: "The f�@%er climbs like a rocket." No shit, with that high aspect-ratio wing . BTW, anyone here seen 13 Days?? That film about the Cuban crisis. It's really great, and theres's some veeeeeery cool low flying done by some RF-8's there, and there's a scene of CIA Maj. Anderson getting shot down in his U-2, while "only" flying at 51000 ft. instead of the usual 70000 or so, enabling the SAM's to prang him. He almost outclimbs the SAM's at first, but as you know, the long-winged bird doesn't lend itself to high speeds. [This message has been edited by semmern (edited 04-17-2001).] IP: Logged
Werner Molders JAG	posted 04-17- 04:40 PM I've probably got the numbers wrong, but the best line from that movie - "Were those 20mm sparrows or 40mm sparrows, sir?" LOL Werner ------------------ Visit Abbeville Field Today! IP: Logged
Werner Molders JAG	posted 04-17- 04:41 PM btw, cool video (although poor quality) up at www.cnn.com , check it out. Werner ------------------ Visit Abbeville Field Today! IP: Logged
weasel Pilot	posted 04-17- 08:46 PM They just need some traffic signs in that airspace. The Chinese pilot was just flying the Wong Wei. weasel IP: Logged
semmern Pilot	posted 04-18- 03:37 PM lol Weasel And I think those were 20mm sparrows, because I think the gun that shot at the 'Sader was a quadruple one, and there aren't all too many quadruple 40mm's around. IP: Logged
ArgonV Pilot	posted 04-18- 09:54 PM Hehehehe... IP: Logged
Jerry Pilot	posted 04-18- 10:00 PM LOL ArgonV IP: Logged
Werner Molders JAG	posted 04-18- 10:02 PM semmern - LOL man, that's not the point, the point was the way he covered up what really happened, and how wryly the ground crew guy responded. I thought that was a classic piece of screenwriting. Nice one Argon, I bet that's been printed off and tacked up around a whoooole lot of water coolers in the states. Werner ------------------ Visit Abbeville Field Today! IP: Logged

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