posted 04-01- 05:03 PM            

***from CNN***
U.S. spy plane, Chinese fighter collide
American crew lands in China; fighter pilot missing

WASHINGTON -- A U.S. reconnaissance plane made an emergency landing in China on Sunday after colliding with a Chinese fighter sent to intercept it.

U.S. officials said the EP-3 Aries II, a U.S. Navy electronic surveillance aircraft, was on a routine mission over international waters off China when the collision occurred about 9:15 a.m. (8:15 p.m. Saturday EST). The damaged spy plane landed on the Chinese island of Hainan, about 400 miles (640 kilometers) southwest of Hong Kong, and none of its crew of 24 was injured.

Chinese state television said the F-8 fighter jet involved in the collision crashed into the South China Sea off Hainan, and its pilot was missing. The collision appeared accidental, said Air Force Lt. Col. Dewey Ford, a spokesman for the U.S. Pacific Command in Hawaii.

"They made contact, and there was enough damage that our aircraft had to land in the People's Republic of China," Ford said.

The incident comes at a time when relations between Washington and Beijing are strained over issues such as human rights and U.S. support for Taiwan.

The EP-3 is a sensitive surveillance aircraft that aviation experts say is capable of monitoring electronic communications and aircraft movements inside the Chinese mainland from points offshore.

Crew 'safe and well,' China says
The Pentagon said the last contact with the plane's crew came immediately after the plane landed.

"The concern is for the air crew more than anything else," said Rear Adm. Craig Quigley, a Pentagon spokesman. "We want to get them back." But he added: "We need to make sure everyone understands the plane is sovereign U.S. property. It is not subject to boarding or seizure."

Joseph Preuher, the U.S. ambassador to China, met with China's vice foreign minister Sunday and held an "initial discussion to resolve the situation," a State Department official said.

The Chinese described the crew members as "safe and well," said State Department spokesman Richard Boucher. The Chinese did not indicate to Prueher what might happen next, Boucher said.

The four-engine turboprop was based on the Japanese island of Okinawa. The extent of the damage to the Aries was not clear.

U.S. military officials say intercepts on such missions are common. Chinese officials said the U.S. plane veered into their fighter, but Pentagon officials said they had no detailed information about the collision Sunday afternoon.

"Currently, China has given proper treatment to the 24 crew members of the U.S. plane," reported Xinhua, China's official news agency. "China reserves its right to pursue further on the issue of the U.S. plane entering Chinese airspace and landing at [a] Chinese airport without Chinese authorization."

Strained U.S.-China relations
President Bush was briefed about the incident, an administration official told CNN, and diplomats from the U.S. Embassy in Beijing were on their way to Hainan. Bush returned to the White House early Sunday afternoon after a weekend at the Camp David presidential retreat. Current U.S.-China relations are rocky, with hard-liners in both countries urging their governments to take a tougher line toward each other.

The Bush administration is trying to redefine the relationship between China and the United States from that of a "strategic partner" to a "strategic competitor." Since taking office in January, Bush has taken a harder line with China on human rights and religious freedom.

The administration also is considering whether to sell destroyers equipped with the advanced Aegis air defense radar system to Taiwan, which Beijing considers a renegade province.

In addition, a senior Chinese army officer recently defected to the United States, and Beijing is holding a Chinese-born U.S. resident accused of spying.

CNN Correspondents Patty Davis, Kelly Wallace and Lisa Rose Weaver contributed to this report.

posted 04-02- 10:17 AM            

We all know Bush was flying the airplane by remote control and purposly crashed it into the Chinese.

You are a illiniformed left wing whack job!

BTW, I like Carter too. He is a good man but a bad President.

Prop out!

posted 04-02- 04:22 PM            

Mirth,
Simple reasoning proves Bush is illegitament.
A person is not supposed to become president
with the help of his brother, a lady Sec of
State which he has bribed with an ambasitorship,
his lawyers and last but not least 5 of his
buddies on the supreme court. The person is
supposed to be elected. Read your constitution.

posted 04-02- 06:07 PM            

So, the entire armed forces went from a shining star, best-of-the-best organization to a bunch of underpaid, overworked, dedicated but undertrained people in the last 3 monhts huh? Wow, neat trick...managing to forget the last 6 years of attrition the armed forces suffered under your favroite people (Clinton and Gore, mostly Clinton). Gimme a break Smokey - I know that you are an intelligent (albeit awfully opinionated) person so please can the Demo rehtoric for a little while. At least wait until we see how Bush does getting our folks out of China before you go apeshit about his abilities or inabilities in supporting the military. BTW - Bush is responsible, as Commander in Chief, for the overall well being and safety of the military - but in no way can he be held responsible, in even the wildest fantasies, for a mid-air collision over the south china sea between a slow mover (the EP-3) and a fighter - where the most likley scenario is a fighter jock who was playing cat and mouse and got too aggressive. So lay off.

posted 04-02- 06:18 PM            

One of the few things, in my opinion, republicans usually do half way right is run
the military. I'm starting to think this guy
is going to be different. Say what you want,
the honeymoon is over. We've had nothing but
screw ups in the military since Bush took over. It isn't all his fault but it's time he
locked some heels and start getting everyones
shit in one pile and tied good and tight.

posted 04-02- 07:09 PM            

So when an American jet bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade (you do remember Kosovo)... that would be Clinton's fault?

Or how about the only "stealth" plane ever to be shot down? Man, Clinton sure was a shitty CinC. Maybe we should buy him a copy of SDOE so he can brush up on his flying skills.

Werner

posted 04-02- 09:50 PM            

Since neither side in the usual right versus left, repub vs demo fight is going to win here (or ever), why not save the flame war for flame wars and discuss something else here instead? So guys, what do you think America's reaction should be if China were to use this or a similar incident to start a war with Taiwan? and please don't go running for Bore or Gush, er I mean Bush or Gore's campaign platforms.

Werner

posted 04-02- 11:50 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vahnatai:
i honestly doubt that they will start a war over this molder

---

I don't think so either Vanity, er Vahnatai. Note I also said "or similar" incident. I only said "this" because the scenario hasn't played out yet, and frankly I think the American Government is kidding themselves if it thinks the Chinese are going to respect the plane as sovereign US territory. My bet is that the delay right now is that the Chinese are scouring it for every bit of useful information they can pick up. Hey, if the Chinese government sends spies to US soil to steal your nuke blueprints, why not take whatever information they can from this airplane too?

Werner

posted 04-02- 11:54 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jerry:
Just like they didn't try to take Hong Kong.

---

They didn't have to, they let the diplomatic process run its course, and acquired the UK according to documents signed 99 years before the handover (as an aside I think that's stupid, just make those leases an even hundred). Now Tung Chee-hua (I think that's his name), is the Beijing puppet in charge there and China has HK by the **lls. Give it a few more years and watch the grip tighten. Isn't HK's SAR status due to expire eventually?

Werner

posted 04-03- 12:27 PM            

You said it, our President. Don't like it, start your own thread.

Smokey,

You are a true dickhead in every since of the word.

Prop out!

posted 04-03- 01:17 PM            

The point of this whole mess (which I now regret even bringing to your attention) was to discuss the very precarious relationship between the US and China, and the implications it could have for NATO (as a group of countries allied to the US), for Taiwan, and for world peace and security in general.

As for 'start your own thread'... What will it take Propwash? Will it take a disclaimer at the top of any OT thread discussing international affairs that says "No mudslinging over American Politics here, please!". I mean really, the fact that it was a 'non-combatant' in the ongoing Bush/Gore squakfest in Flame Wars who started this thread might have told you something. Would it have made any difference if Pachy started this thread, simply because he isn't from North America? Well newsflash Propwash, I pay taxes to Ottawa, not DC, so Pachy and I are in the same boat in that we're not US nationals, thus your point about starting 'your own thread' makes no sense.

So, to conclude by paraphrasing your least-eloquent comment of that post, F-off Yankee, er, Propwash.

WM

------------------
Visit Abbeville Field Today!

posted 04-03- 01:26 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jerry:
That's my point Werner. The Chinese will wait 100 years if they have to, so why risk a nuclear war over Taiwan if they think they will eventually win in the economic/diplomatic circles?

---

That's very true, but I guess its a question of how far you think Jiang Zemin will go to fulfill his 'One China' policy in the allotted timeframe. I seem to recall hearing that Beijing wanted to 'unite the motherland' in within the next decade. Hmm, Anchluss, Chinese-style?

V - Sorry man, I didn't mean to come off as harsh as your reply would suggest, my point was that I was of the same belief you were so I didn't understand why you made that comment. Btw, what does "Vahnatai" mean? I figured it was some kind of takeoff on Vanity...

Werner

posted 04-03- 01:32 PM            

A long while back, in a thread on this board I predicted that our next major war would be China, we are one step closer to that today. Where we go from here depends largely on if China decides to respect International law or, as they have done so far, ignore it. I hope, for everybody's sake, that they quite screwing around and do the appropriate thing.

posted 04-03- 01:38 PM            

Quite right about the presidential politics thing. Smokeys post got under my skin and so I responded, sorry.

posted 04-03- 01:59 PM            

For one thing I was surprised to learn a while ago that China doesn't have a blue-water navy to speak of. I would imagine they're trying to establish one by buying off of Russia, but still I was amazed at that.

Another point is that given China's (albeit 'official') declared defense budget, Taiwan could quickly outgun even China, barrel for barrel if not man for man. Any conventional war for the island would be as brutal and bloody as some of the recent conflicts in Africa, imo. I think Beijing is feeling like the window of opportunity is starting to close, that before long the costs of 'repatriating' Taiwan will start to increase dramatically.

On another issue relating to this mess, I heard on the news this morning that the crew has been moved to a 'guest barracks' and that the plane is empty on the runway. Hmm, and a US delegation won't be allowed to visit until Tuesday. I wonder how long it will end up taking the PLA to gather all the info possible on what the US was looking for, what they know, how they find things out, etc. from that plane. I'm almost wondering if the crew wouldn't have been smarter to bail out over Hainan "B17 style" and point the plane over the pacific and let it the autopilot fly it until it ran out of fuel (sending it to the bottom of the South China Sea). Christmas has come early for Chinese intel, it seems.

Werner

posted 04-03- 02:16 PM            

I'd be willing to bet that recon flights near China will soon (if they don't already)have fighter escorts... I seriously doubt a Chinese F8 (60's era technology) would try to play cat and mouse with a P-3 sporting an F-15 escort. I know I sure as hell wouldn't.

posted 04-03- 02:18 PM            

Ya leaf flag saluting hoser!

posted 04-03- 02:26 PM            

On the subject of bailing out... How dangerous is bailing out, period?

Assuming they did destroy all the sensitive electronics and other data, I suppose what they did makes sense. The US will have to pay to fix up and refit the plane, but at least they didn't also lose the airframe.

Werner

posted 04-03- 02:29 PM            

btw, I rather like my flag, thanks.

Oh, and what's the technical definition of a "dick head"? I haven't heard that one since elementary school, and I'm drawing a blank.

Werner

posted 04-03- 03:15 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Propwash:
You are a true dickhead in every since of the word.

---

What other "sinces" [sic] are there for the term?

Werner

posted 04-03- 03:41 PM               

Bush will demand that China give back our jet... China wants to keep it and would be willing to start a war over this as they are willing to sacrifice many men in the name of their country. We are not willing to do so there for we wont piss them off badly by screwing with Taiwan to get back at China. BUT what is one thing China needs? MONEY!!!! Our government will most likely make some sort of money deal with China or else cut off a money supply. Since China needs money they will give our jet back.

posted 04-03- 03:51 PM            

Werner

posted 04-03- 04:49 PM            

The reported capabilities of an EP-3 are astounding... and those are just the reported ones. They include things like being able to monitor and record every military radio/microwave/cell communication in their range at once. Supposedly the equipment on one of these things is capable of handling a communications load equivalent to a large us city (like Chicago) - that takes a number of people to support it. Much of the crew are technicians, some are linguists and others are crypto people.

It is likley that China will give the plane back soon, so as to avoid looking bad on the global stage - where they are playing many governments quite beautifully. If they hold up too much longer even the reported loss of a pilot will not be enough to offset the ill will generated by keeping an aircraft and it's crew far beyond any reasonable explanation. Make no mistake, the Chinese do have an agenda and that agenda includes the destruction of NATO and weakening of the UN - the fastest way to do this is to severly weaken or destroy the US. Many countries don't like the idea of the US being the only true superpower - and I can understand that, but they would like it even less if we fell and China filled that void.

Anyhow, back to the topic at hand. Bush made some televised comments about the situation a bit earlier today that were diplomatic but with an undertone that said the Chinese better get off their asses soon including that the Chinese had been given ample time to "do the right thing.". So, things roll forward and it's in Jiang Zemin's court now - hope he doesn't want this thing to escalate.

-Stark

posted 04-03- 04:49 PM               

If the US is seriously concerned about Chinese access to top secret equipment why not send in a Tomahawk while it's just sitting by itself outside on the tarmac. They don't give us our property back, we destroy it.