posted 01-02- 10:37 PM               

Yahoo to ban Nazi artifacts from online auctions after users complain
Updated: Tue, Jan 02 08:06 PM EST

NEW YORK (AP) - Yahoo Inc. will stop carrying online auctions of Nazi artifacts and other hate-related materials after some users complained that such items promote hate and violence. The new restrictions, which take effect Jan. 10, could also address a November court ruling from France requiring the U.S.-based Yahoo to block such items from French users.
Although the Internet company has insisted it cannot limit access to certain geographic regions, as the French court ordered, Yahoo may effectively comply by blocking the items from everyone.

The new guidelines will also apply to the site's classified listings and its e-commerce partners. Yahoo search directories, chat rooms and other areas are not affected.

Brain Fitzgerald, the senior auction producer at Yahoo, said the court order played no role in the new policy other than to raise awareness internally and to hasten the decision.

"We decided we don't necessarily want to profit from items that promote hatred or glorify hatred and violence," Fitzgerald said.

But Mark Gambale, a consultant at Gomez Inc. in Waltham, Mass., questioned the timing.

"In a way, it's a pre-emptive strike in making sure (the French ruling) doesn't become a serious issue," he said. "International law has a unique way of evolving. Yahoo is trying to clean its own house here."

Fitzgerald said that while some users support the trade of such items on grounds of free speech, the majority of comments received by Yahoo were in opposition.

When the new policy takes effect, Yahoo will also begin screening items before they are listed. Computer software will reject any item that appears to violate the site's policies. Users will be able to appeal rejections.

Auction sites have typically rejected items only after they are posted.

Also beginning on Jan. 10, Yahoo will charge sellers 20 cents to $2.25 US to list an item, although it will not collect a commission on sales. Other auction sites, including eBay and Amazon.com, already charge for both.

The newly banned items at Yahoo include medals, weapons, uniforms, official documents and other items that carry swastikas or other symbols associated with hate groups. They join a banned list that now includes cigarettes, live animals and used underwear.

Jupiter Research analyst Andrew Ari Clibanoff said Yahoo faces competitive pressures, in addition to its legal troubles. Noting that eBay already has a limited ban, Clibanoff said he was surprised Yahoo took this long to introduce new policies.

The leading online auction site, eBay, bans hate materials only in Germany, France, Austria and Italy - countries where such items are illegal. Sellers may not ship such items there, and buyers from those countries may not bid on them.

In April, two French groups sued Yahoo, based in Santa Clara, Calif., of violating French law barring the display or sale of racist material.

A French judge ruled in November that Yahoo must prevent French users from auctions of such items, or face $13,000 US a day in fines. On Dec. 21, the company asked a U.S. court to block the order, saying France doesn't have jurisdiction.

posted 01-03- 05:01 AM               

It stems fram a basic idea than banning things changes the way people think. A racist thug is always going to be one.

Buying WW2 German artifacts doesn't turn you into one.

So why ban the objects?

Lets get one thing clear though.

ANYONE POSTING RACIST MATERIAL IS SCUM OF THE LOWEST SORT

The automatic assumption that Nazi symbols on historic artifacts are racist is what I disagree with.

posted 01-03- 09:58 AM               

Yep pretty soon we will all be like germany, trying to forget the past mistakes.

They will never get them off my planes.

posted 01-03- 12:05 PM               

regards blasius

posted 01-03- 12:41 PM               

Many of these artifacts are pieces of ourselves, our heritage, lineage and history. If, for some reason, they speak only hate (of course they don't), then so be it, as that's a reflection of our nature and we need to cope with this, not avoid it.

As I've stated on issues like this in the past, I'll never fully understand what the people under the bootheel of Germany during WWII went through; however, I still don't see how hiding things like this is going to bring any more light to the events of WWII. We can't simply brush these things under the rug and say 'It was all a big mistake, let's forget about it and move on'. BS!

Yes, these artifacts and/or symbols of nazism should never again be worn/adorned/hung/displayed with pride! (Even though much of the Wermacht couldn't have cared less about nazism) They should not, however, be considered taboo. The more people that gain knowledge of WWII, the better their chances of finding out about the attrocities.

WT said:

quote:

---

It stems fram a basic idea than banning things changes the way people think. A racist thug is always going to be one.

---

That's overly pessimistic, WT. Not in every case. People change over time. You've changed...

posted 01-03- 12:50 PM               

On the one hand, if a company is going to do business internationally it must obey the laws of the country it is doing business with and also be sensitive to that country's "cultural" values.

On the other hand, why should Yahoo ban the sale of Nazi "artifacts" to everyone world wide? It must be possible to filter those sales so they don't show up in certain countries, so why impose someone else's idea of PC on us?

posted 01-03- 01:02 PM               

The first important thing you should know is: selling nazi items is legal in France. Only the public exhibition of insignaes and uniforms is prohibited (the exact legal text is here: article R-645-1 du code pénal)

In fact, Nazi items are more or less openly sold in flea markets. For example in St-Ouen near Paris I came across various propaganda items, including a few issues of the Luftwaffe newspaper Der Adler... in French translation, without really looking for that kind of stuff.

This is why Judge Gomez' decision against Yahoo was critiqued a lot by free speech advocates here (for example readUNE ORDONNANCE DÉLIRANTE, this would deserve a full translation but it's very long and full of subtle legalese).

So why this ruling?

Well, French society as a whole doesn't like the Internet much. Or has a problem with it. The old media and the legal system think it's full of nazis and pedophiles. The government tries to perpetuate its long tradition of media control and official censorship. And, if you're American, that makes it worse because you probably are, well, greedy with no culture and no morals.

Doh. I call this "Maginot line mentality". Guess this country hasn't evolved a lot in 60 years.

This being said, I'm not all against these anti-hate laws. Unlike what Spanky says, it's lot like Europe tries to forget the past. It's just preventing weirdos to glorify it, or pretend it did not happen. Think for a minute, a lot of these criminals, and those who supported them are still alive today. These laws are a way of saying to them, and their young disciples, "it was bad, and don't even think of saying otherwise".

posted 01-03- 01:05 PM               

I believe it's pretty well documented how much Adolph Galland and Erich Hartmann communicated with Allied pilots, and their respective air forces after the war.

It seems like the people who actually fought the war, and watched their friends and brothers die in combat, were able to get along with each other after the war, through a sharing of respect and the feeling that it shouldn't happen again, better than people years later who had absolutely no idea what it was really like at all.

While unfortunately it seems that the human race is incapable of not repeating horrible history over and over again, the only way you'll ever have a shot at it is to recognize the mistakes of the past, and to be a student of history.

German WWII artifacts, even ones with swastikas, are artifacts of history. The more you deny something, the easier it is for it to occur again.

Censorship has always been a great way to keep people from thinking what the people in power don't want them to think. And never forget that people are basically teenagers, in that they will be most attracted to doing something someone in power is telling them that they CAN'T do.

You don't stop hate groups by banning the sale of historical artifacts. You stop hate groups by educating people to see how silly hate groups are in the first place, and then no one wants to join one.

There's plenty of ways in this world to get free beer.

posted 01-03- 01:46 PM               

quote:

---

On the one hand, if a company is going to do business internationally it must obey the laws of the country it is doing business with and also be sensitive to that country's "cultural" values.

On the other hand, why should Yahoo ban the sale of Nazi "artifacts" to everyone world wide? It must be possible to filter those sales so they don't show up in certain countries, so why impose someone else's idea of PC on us?

---

Exactly, Jerry, but we see evidence of this corporate censorship domestically too! What would happen if suddenly corporations could once again (legally) decide not to deal with a particular race of humans simply because "We don't want to profit from items that promote or glorify (insert race here)".

On the filtering question, sure it's possible, but IIRC, there was some reason that Ebay wasn't willing to do this as well. I'm sure it boils down to someone at Yahoo believing that prohibition is cheaper than implementing a filter.

Another thing that makes me shake my head is the fact that Yahoo was totally reactive about this - even when Ebay faced the same problem month earlier. Not until they received tons of 'angry' emails did they take a stance on the issue. Besides, what happened to the old addage that people are more likely to go out of their way to complain about something than compliment it. Well, how the hell do you compliment something like this? Of course the majority of comments are going to be in opposition! What if we always did what the majority wants without considering the consequences...

posted 01-03- 03:17 PM               

Unless that's what you mean by _mostly_

posted 01-03- 04:42 PM               

ArgonV-- you are a collector of artifacts...I am curious about one that was just given to me. I am in no way ever going to sell this item- but my curiousity is present nonetheless-- I just got a helmet that was worn by my great-grandfather when he was in the French calvary during WWI...how much would this be worth? Thanks...

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posted 01-03- 06:25 PM               

Why do those have to be exclusive? I accuse them of both censoring and being reactive.

To expand:

I refer to 'corporate censorship' as their attempt to prevent what they interpret as harmful ideas from reaching their user base. They are going to start (as I don't think any course of action has been finalized) censoring/scrutinizing/choosing what can be sold to all users, despite the fact that this particular product is legally sold/auctioned within the majority of the world.

They were also reactive about this censorship, in that, although Ebay was first slapped with this decision, Yahoo (also an Internet auctioneer among other things) did not immediately address this nor change their policies regarding what can or cannot be sold on their site. In this case, they didn't choose to begin their censoring until they were 'convinced' this is what their public wants. They knew this was coming from a mile away (well, across the Atlantic maybe)...

The fact that they were reactive isn't why I find their actions questionable. What I was also trying to say in there is I'm not convinced their excuse for starting this policy is necessarily valid. They received a lot of complaints. So what? Does that truely mean the majority of their users don't want these items allowed? Probably, but did they actually ask/poll them?

posted 01-03- 06:56 PM               

I find it surprising that a french court can actually impose a fine on an American company.

posted 01-03- 10:14 PM               

Jeeves, that depends. What is the condition of the helmet? Does most of its pain still remain? What color is the paint BTW? (If any still exists) And what shape is the helmet in? (Dents, scrapes, holes?) And does it still have the liner? (The cloth/leather parts inside that sit on your head and hold the helmet on) You said French calvary... so I assume it looks very similar to this:

Id say... given these variables that its probably worth at least $150 U.S. dollars. If its in excellent condition id say a couple hundred U.S. dollars. It depends on the buyer really. WWI French helmets in good condition are really rare these days. Most of the ones Ive seen lately are in really poor condition.

posted 01-03- 11:42 PM               

There really isn't any paint on it at all-- except for what looks to be a star on the front-- white with some type of red and blue design inside it- but it seems to be a bit smeared. The leather chin strap and head liner are still in good shape...although it has been sitting in my great aunt's barn for a few decades...I was just curious- as I said I wouldn't dream of selling it- but I knew you were a collector of sorts. Thanks!

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posted 01-04- 11:14 AM               

Just curious... do you have any idea if the ridge on that helmet actually served some kind of a function, or if it was there just to look good?

Man, I really need to start editing these _before_ submitting them.

posted 01-04- 04:57 PM               

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posted 01-04- 06:42 PM               

The helmet your great grandfather wore wasnt French produced at all... (The blue helmet in the pic I posted first was the French produced helmet of WWI and WWII) What you have is in fact the American or British produced helmet of WWI. You can normally tell how good of a condition it is in by how much sand texture still remains on the shell. (Unless it has ben retouched. Ive seen some retouched WWI helmets before...) You see, sand was sprinkled on the top and then painted over to reduce the reflections off of the helmet that would otherwise be very present if it were just a smooth surface. It also blends better with the ground textures. (Mud...) Does a small white tag still remain inside the shell in the middle of the helmet? It should be fairly visible if you look inside. (The helmet is worth more if its still intact)

The liner consists of a leather band (With stoppings in every other slot) and a circular pad of black cloth-like material, and inside that is some padding sewn on. Sewn onto the black cloth-like material is a web or net of cotton that helps support the helmet when it sits on your head. There should also be padding at the top inside of the shell. (Just incase you bump your head on the shell) The leather chinstrap goes all the way around the inside of the helmet and the liner is attached to the chinstrap by two metal pins with prongs (One on each side. Is the liner firmly attached to the chin strap or is it loose? This also helps the value if the liner is secure to the chinstrap) All of that is attached to the shell by a rivit at the very top.

The star insignia on the front is no doubt the unit your great-grandfather served in. If you can post a pic, Im sure my books will tell me which unit it is. (This also makes the value go up if there is an insignia)

You might want to consider putting some leather softener on the chinstrap so it doesnt crack due to old age. I have a few of these helmets my self and my father has MANY more than I do.

P.S. Gustang, that metal ridge on the top of the French helmet served as a strengthener so the top wouldnt bend or dent in so easily. It also has its roots in the mid-evil helmets the knights wore. Its also for looks aswell and it distiguishes the helmet so you dont get confused as to who you are shooting at.