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Author Topic:   A legacy...
Sv
Pilot
posted 12-04- 01:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sv   Click Here to Email Sv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europe/12/04/germany.swastika.reut/index.html

I think the world better get over Nazzism soon, keeping on this way is only inspiring the new generations to think that Nazzis have some super powers or something...

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Blasius1
Pilot
posted 12-04- 01:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Blasius1   Click Here to Email Blasius1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
not the swastika is bad, the dirty nazis are bad.
poor trees.

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Whirlwind
Pilot
posted 12-04- 01:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Whirlwind   Click Here to Email Whirlwind     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I guess the reason they want more Nazi's is to supply the 'extras' for Return to Castle Wolfenstein...

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Gustang
Pilot
posted 12-04- 02:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gustang   Click Here to Email Gustang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From the article:

quote:
Spurred by a wave of public protest after a Reuters aerial photograph of the 200-by-200-foot swastika was published in local newspapers, state forestry officials moved in with chain saws early Monday to obliterate the Nazi symbol.

So if they would have been able to take down all of the 'offending' trees, they'd have, what?, a hole in the forest the shape of a swastika the year-round! LOL!

Though I'd hope they didn't mean get rid of all of the trees...

I agree. From my perspective, this is going too far; However, I also cannot fully understand the pain that runs so deep caused by looking at a symbol .

What I believe the should have done is contact the landowner and tell him/her he has X amount of time to correct it (I don't care, cut down a few of the trees to distort the symbol if necessary). If he/she doesn't comply, fine them annually and give the proceeds to the local war victims organization. Seems fair to me...

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ArgonV
Pilot
posted 12-04- 02:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ArgonV   Click Here to Email ArgonV     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well I dont know what to think about this... Seems like a waste of trees to me. The world better get into explaining about why MOST of the Nazi empire was evil and stop just covering up the "left-overs". Other wise what Sv said will happen.

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Jerry
Pilot
posted 12-04- 04:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jerry   Click Here to Email Jerry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We can only imagine the humiliation, embarassment and sorrow that the German people felt after the war, and must still feel, for embracing Nazism. If they want to ban public reminders of this national disgrace that's their right. Every country has limits on public expression - even in America. Germans should decide what is acceptable to them. Sv, it's a chapter in hisory we should never "get over".

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semmern
Pilot
posted 12-05- 09:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for semmern   Click Here to Email semmern     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have this nasty bunch of wannabe nazis in my class. They're all 15 summers old, like me, and worst of all; they are (were) my friends. I started being suspicious when they asked me to download some of Hitler's speeches from Napster. They really don't know what they're playing with!

[This message has been edited by semmern (edited 12-05-2000).]

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Whirlwind
Pilot
posted 12-05- 12:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Whirlwind   Click Here to Email Whirlwind     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What I don't get is that the trees had been there since at least 1938, yet they are just now deciding that it is an issue. What is really the issue here is that despite the symbol being removed, the memory is still there of it, what the symbol meant, and who used the symbol. Each year there are fewer memories as those who were there become deceased, the meaning of what the symbol meant is still not concrete amongst people (racism/party symbol/hate/war/etc), and only the history books are going to be left in next decade to remember who the symbol represented. Another thing is I don't understand Germany's effort to remove the symbol while they still let other places that symbolized the actions of the symbol remain, like the concentration camps. Don't they also represent the symbol?

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Werner Molders
Pilot
posted 12-05- 01:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Werner Molders   Click Here to Email Werner Molders     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"To cut or not to cut"

Well, given that I'm not German and have never lived in Germany, let alone visit there I, of course, have no grounds to speak on the issue, but there is something that strikes me about all this. What if you were to leave the trees? I mean cutting them down doesn't change the fact that at one time Germany's government was lead by the Nazi party. If the trees are really that offensive, why have they lasted this long? Are people only now starting to fly over this part of the forest? I realize that they are being cut down because no government in its right mind would put itself in a position to be viewed as sympathetic to the aforementionned fascist regime, but from a psychologically detached standpoint this is really an interesting question.

In regards to the issue of disappearing tangible legacies of the regime, and of keeping some things (like the camps) and not others, my guess is that those places/things which represent the horrors of the regime are kept to remind us of the horrors, while pure symbolism has no such emotional connotation so they are removed. In a sense one could compare the trees to a nazi banner hanging in a German city. Their function was purely to glorify and legitimize the regime. The only difference is that the trees are a little more out of the way. During the post-war denazification, the allied plan included, among many other things, the removal of such visual cues. I guess they missed this one.

So, on the one hand you could argue that the trees should be considered part of a long term denazification mop-up operation and that the trees should be removed without much though (...banner #10986, banner #10987, banner #10988...), but on the other hand you could argue that the time for denazification has long since come and gone, and that really what's going on is the media latching on to a story that will generate headlines, thus putting inescapable pressure on the Schroeder government to act.

In the long run however, does removing these trees add to the relegation of the nazi memory to history books alone? Well if people hardly noticed this in 60 years, I doubt they'd notice them more in the next 60. I mean it's not as if you're going to get CNN camping out near this grove... "Wolf Blitzer here on day 31 of denazification 2000: the latest this hour? Well the trees are still standing, um, back to live coverage of the Florida Supreme Court battle now..."

The underlying question of tangible reminders is an interesting for me in another way, because I had this debate with my father last easter when we were in Normandy. While travelling in the general viscinity of the coast, we made numerous stops at places where coastal batteries and emplacements had been. All but two of the seven or eight concrete defense networks we visited were either bricked up or filled with sand, and basically left to rot. No interpretive signs, nothing. As the trip progressed my father was really disturbed that the remains of the war were so rapidly disappearing. Now understand that my father really isn't much of a war buff (nowhere near to the extent I am) so his reaction to all this really surprised me. I, on the other hand, was surprised with myself because I tried to put myself in the shoes of a local resident, and so my argument in reply was that you can't turn a whole region into a living museum! These things cost money to maintain, and I certainly wouldn't want tax dollars going to maintain the entire atlantic wall when social programs were threatened. On the other hand I think the French have really done a good job addressing the issue four ways:

1. Not removing (as far as I could tell) any of the bunkers/pillboxes/etc. Even bricked up and/or filled with sand, the reminder is still there

2. Certain places, like Pointe du Hoc (yes I know this is maintained with US funds in part, if not in its entirety, but the French could have asked for it to be abandoned instead) and another place near PdH (I forget the name - four heavy calibre anti-shipping gun emplacements, 1 of which you can enter and explore) - cetain places are being kept up and serve as subregional focal points for remembrance of the occupation.

3. Memorial pour la Paix, Caen. This place changed my father's mind about the state of war relics in Normandy. To use his words, "even if everything else turns to dust, this museum alone will protect the memory of what happened". I couldn't agree more. That place is absolutely incredible. Brilliantly conceived, brilliantly executed, and more reassuringly still is that while we were there (midweek, near Easter) more than a thousand school children, Junior and Senior High, visited. More on this later.

4. To the west and south a bit more, in the general viscinity of the Cotentin down towards Mont St. Michel (likely elsewhere too, but this is where we were driving) there is a fabulous system of roadway signage for landmarks in each phase of the Battle of Normandy. This signage led us to a German ossuary near Mont St. Michel with the remains of over 15000 (yes, fifteen thousand) Wehrmacht soldiers who died in the Normandy area in 1944. Very surreal atmosphere inside the place.

Anyhow, a bit more about Caen and then I'll shut up. In the second part of the museum are some incredible audio visual presentations. The first is a wide screen, that starts with two, parallel-running propaganda reels of pre-DDay allied on the left and German on the right (interesting, I had seen most of the allied in films before but very little of the German). As DDay hits, the two merge into one big battle sequence, which splits back and forth into two, then three, then back to one, until the surrender sequence. Then you see the beaches from the view of a low flying plane "today", you hear and see the birds flying, the surf rolling in and out. Every ten seconds or so it switches to an identical shot of roughly the same location (interesting, they cut the film so the surf comes in just as far too, really adds to the "here now, here 60 years ago" effect) with soldiers madly scrambling up the beaches, and a near-continual rat-tat-tat of aerial machine guns. Oh, did I mention this is guncamera footage from 109s "combing" the beaches? anyhow my dad and I watched this one twice. The first time the auditorium was about 1/10 full with tourists and 9/10 full with high schoolers, who sat in reverent silence. We went back for a second go because it is incredibly hard to soak it all up in one pass because of the split screen, except this time I wanted to scream because the 9/10s were junior high kids who were making immature comments and generally not feeling the emotional consequences of what they were watching. When I thought about it some more though, I was really happy because a)The French remember! b)Remembrance has become a part of the curriculum, and is reinforced, so that by the time they mature somewhat and are in high school, they have a better understanding of the breadth and consequence of it all. Now I know I'm coming off sounding a bit pariah-ish, especially to those who know roughly how old I am, but I stated a) and b) because these are two things NOT done in Canadian schools, and even in the exceptional cases where they are, it's not NEARLY as much as in France or enough, imo. Our history texts and curriculum allow for (at least in alberta) a whopping ONE WEEK to cover ww2. In this time they gloss over BoB, El Alamein, Stalingrad, DDay, Canadian internment of the Japanese and the wartime confereneces which is really a lead-in to the cold war unit. No field trips, nothing. Even if there were field trips, there is nothing in Canada that is a patch on Caen, let alone what I imagine the Imperial War Museum in London to be. I guess my point is that I have the utmost respect for the French and for how they have handled the legacy of the war, particularly in Normandy.

Well that was a whole lot longer than I intended so my apologies to you unfortunate readers. Just finished my bio lab final so I'm in somewhat of a contemplative mood.

Werner

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Visit Abbeville Field Today!

[This message has been edited by Werner Molders (edited 12-05-2000).]

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Jerry
Pilot
posted 12-05- 03:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jerry   Click Here to Email Jerry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Regarding the comments about why the tree swastika is just now being talked about, after 55 years. It's really no mystery.

1)According to the article it is located in Eastern Germany. Western press wasn't doing much arial photography over East Germany until the last decade, so it just wasn't reported to the public.

2) It's only visible in the fall which also limits the possibility of it being photographed by the press.

3) Earlier attempts to eliminate it failed so it is not just now being noticed by the government.

4) Like everything else, once something controversial is publicized it becomes a public issue. The press likes to "create" news as much as report it. It just hadn't latched onto this item until now.

I still say, now that it is known by the general public, they have the right to object to it...and German law gives the government the right to destroy it.

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Pachy
Pilot
posted 12-05- 04:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pachy   Click Here to Email Pachy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Pointe du Hoc has a very special status, the historical site now belongs to the US. When I went to this place (easter '99) it really shook me. Like this happened yesterday.

Interestingly I didn't like much the Memorial in Caen. There are interesting things, pre-war hate material, Vichy era anti-British propaganda (that poster with Churchill as a vampire!), uniforms, weapons, even an Enigma crypto machine. But the video part mixes real WWII footage with scenes from fiction movies, and I found that dishonest. Guess there are no (or too few) German documents from DDay.

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Tailslide
Pilot
posted 12-05- 09:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tailslide   Click Here to Email Tailslide     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

A more creative solution might have been to plant MORE trees in the gaps and turn it into a big plus sign with a box around it.

TS

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Jerry
Pilot
posted 12-06- 01:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jerry   Click Here to Email Jerry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah...well....you could do the same thing to a cross burned on some black family's lawn but I don't think it would fool anyone. I think a little Agent Orange is needed here. Or maybe just some evergreens as replacements for the larch.

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Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
posted 12-06- 02:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spanky the Mad Dog   Click Here to Email Spanky the Mad Dog     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Spanky here...

Yeah Werner I totally agree about the ww2 history.

I remember a little more the a week but I'm self taught too so what more people absorb was probly nothing.

I gotta say that this town is pretty decent for remembering the fallen.

We are an airforce town.

North Bay, Ontario.

Canadas underground Norad center is located here.

We have a canuck and a bomarc located right in the middle of town.

And even though we already had a war memorial in town, we just built a larger one.

I really think that students should learn more though, I have read a couple books that should be standard reading in school.

Unfortunatly it seems like alot of people hate reading for what ever reason.

Sucks to be them.


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Tailslide
Pilot
posted 12-06- 04:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tailslide   Click Here to Email Tailslide     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Good idea Jerry if we can wipe out any trace of anything bad thats ever happened, it will all go away. Its better to remember the bad with the good rather than pretend it never happened IMHO.

See ya at the book burning.

TS

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Jerry
Pilot
posted 12-06- 12:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jerry   Click Here to Email Jerry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tailslide, you didn't read my earlier post in this thread:

quote:
Originally posted by Jerry:
We can only imagine the humiliation, embarassment and sorrow that the German people felt after the war, and must still feel, for embracing Nazism. If they want to ban public reminders of this national disgrace that's their right. Every country has limits on public expression - even in America. Germans should decide what is acceptable to them. Sv, it's a chapter in hisory we should never "get over".

I'm only saying that if the German people feel they need to ban the swastika for their own peace of mind, then it's their right. Neither you nor I can fathom the national psyche of a country responsible for so much evil. I would never support such censorship in America. In my last sentence above I was very explicit...we should never forget what happened.

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Mirthain
Pilot
posted 12-07- 02:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mirthain   Click Here to Email Mirthain     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Geezuz.....
Ok, Jerry there is a HUGE difference between not "getting over" something and "Not forgetting" something.
I got over my first divorce, but I will never forget it either. See?
Not getting over something is childish and stupid. You will be emotionally distraught over this for years... therapy comes to mind.
Not forgetting is remembering the lessons learned, taking it all for what is was and what was needed and dumping the baggage.
As for the germans, they are embarrased by it all, and so the ban. But I have to agree with why make a big deal about it? What is there to gain from it? Perhaps if the Germans had made it a warning to the Right Wing facsists that are cropping up all over the place over there it could have served a purpose, but now, it just appears to be another place more willing to ignore the past than to learn from it.

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Mirthain=FC=

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