posted 11-13- 11:26 AM            

And most of the country didn't think so either.

posted 11-13- 01:03 PM               

Limbaugh is annoying and only serves as a place for weary conservatives to feel at home in a world of liberal media. While he is generally a good conservative, he is not outstanding by any means.

posted 11-13- 02:03 PM            

I know that it is much easier to say that conservatives are followers rather than admit people have the ability to think for them selves.

Limbuagh and others that you touted happen to perscribe to a tact that, like it or not, most of main stream Americans live thier lives by.

I know it stings, and I know you don't want to have to live up to moral standards that are hard to attain.

This is why there are Democrats. Its easy to be one. With Dempocrats, anything goes and we dare not hold them up to the truth or the law in most cases or we are hatefull and intolerant.

From what I have read from the libs on this board, the majority of you sound like intellectual midgets and morally bankrupt.

This is the path you are determined for this country to travel. No matter how rocky or off course it is.

Shame on you!

Prop out!

posted 11-13- 02:52 PM               

I have no idea what you're talking about and I don't think the name-calling is necessary. My only point was that Republicans rejected McCain, not America at large... a point that you chose to avoid when you started on your self-righteous tirade.

Furthermore, you know nothing of my moral standards so don't speak as though you do. Actually, do what you want... just don't expect people to take you seriously when you make assertions you can't back up.

posted 11-13- 02:55 PM               

Oh Shame.

LOL

You crack me up man.

Be carefull that high horse doesn't topple over and land on top of you.

I hear it's a heavy beast.

posted 11-13- 03:13 PM            

Point I was trying to make, is that the two candidates, Gore and Bush, are too far left, and too far right for the majority of Americans to swallow. A moderate would have faired much better versus either one.

Just look at the mess that is going on now. It's been reduced to nothing more than name calling and lawyers. At first I thought the Dems were looking stupid with all the recounts, but now the GOP is catching up with their lawsuits as well. The Dems will wind up looking worse in the end because of goof balls like Jesse Jackson and the like.

It makes good monologues for Leno, Conan and Letterman...even the worthless, annoying Limbaugh makes a little sense with some of it, but the whole fiasco is making our country look absolutely ridiculous.

You guys that slam Clinton for making our country look bad...please tell me why this doesn't make us look even worse.

Prop,

posted 11-13- 03:33 PM               

It is just AMAZINGLY close! Yes, tensions are high, but we are on the way to getting it settled.

Won't it be funny if Gore claws his way up to like a 400 vote lead only to lose to Bsuh by over 1000 votes from over seas?

Hey Prop, I'd like to tell you to chill out too, but it's nice to have company -it's lonely over here to the right

posted 11-13- 04:36 PM            

Lets see, what are we on, the fourth count now?
Wow, the dems are going to do anything they can within the law or beyond it to try steal this election.

If Gore could have won his own state this would not be an issue.

Here is my idea. One state, one electoral vote. All states would have an eaqual say that way.
If you want to go by the popular vote only. Why even have state elections. That would be a joke.

Lets talk about Hillary. On second thought lets not, my stomach couldn't take it.

Its funny, if someone walked into Texas from out of state and tried to run for national office they would be laughed off the stage.

Says a good bit about the lack of state pride in NY.

posted 11-13- 04:58 PM               

What is the worst of 2 evils...a carpetbagger, or a whiny congressman who would make a greater mess of this state's educational system than it already is...maybe I am a bit biased being a teacher-- but I worked too hard to get where I am to see Lazio take it all away.

------------------

Brought to you by the campaign for a better Dauntless!

posted 11-13- 08:06 PM               

Threat to the constitution: The US constitution stands in the way of everything H wants to do, she will do whatever it takes to destroy it.

Enemy of the state: America is based on the constitution of which she is an enemy of.

I do NOT think she should be executed LOL. But I do think that she should NOT be a US senator. But it is her right, and the right of those who voted for her. But I will expose her plan every chance I have. I will work to make sure this does not become H's America.

posted 11-13- 09:45 PM               

Oh come on! This is your proof that Hillary is a Communist? Next, you are going to tell me that Joe McCarthy was an American hero?

Furthermore, it DOES take a village to raise a kid. When you raise a kid, you don't shut him off from the world. You encourage him to go out in the world and learn how to interact with other kids and adults. If a kid is shut off from the world, and his parents are the only people he interacts with, you end up with a very wierd kid who grows up to be a very wierd adult.

Anyway, it's an innocuous phrase about child-rearing. If you don't agree with it, fine... but, how you glean a sinister Communist agenda from it is beyond me.

>Threat to the constitution: The US constitution stands in the way of everything H wants to do, she will do whatever it takes to destroy it.

Such as?

>Enemy of the state: America is based on the constitution of which she is an enemy of.

Yes, but you haven't shown us why she is a threat to the constitution. All we have so far is some vague assertion that she wants government to control every aspect of our lives. Good luck proving that!

You conservatives would do much better if you guys weren't constantly looking for some big cartoon dragon to slay. It's as though you're not satisfied to simply disagree with Hillary... you have to call her a "criminal" or a "monster". Sorry, but I reserve words like that for people like Adolph Hitler, not Hillary Clinton. Hillary is, at worst, an annoying phony, and possibly inept... but not a monster.

posted 11-13- 10:33 PM               

Allowing my child's teacher to run his/her life. Taking children away from their parents. Teaching the PC views in school, that is teaching the political "beliefes" to children, what is right and what is wrong as dictated by the most self rightous of America.

All ready H wants to get rid of the electoral college... THAT is the constitution right there!

She wants to take away people's rights to own guns, another constitutional right.

My child can play in the world, But I always have the last word, it is my child, take my child away and I will kill you, that means DEAD.

H actualy wanted the most pure communist act to be implemented in America. She actually proposed that the goverment assign your occupation if you go to med school as part of her commie healthcare plan. What the hell is up with that??? That my friend is communisim at its most base level.

Call her a dragon, go ahead, she is as much. Mock me for knowing and fearing my enemies all you want, but I will keep the good sense to know who is on my side and who would be my enemy.

She wants to take my money to give it to those who do not deserve it. She feels that all are "entitled" to have the same things. She wants universal (read: socialized) medicine. She wants to eliminate all competition from the world of medicine. She wants the government to decide who lives and who dies. This is communism.

She did not want my wife to give her father a kidney - because the government knows more about what my wife wanted than she did.

She makes me wear seat bealts because she knows what is better for me. She also put an airbag in my car that could kill my 2 year old - that no one will disable because they are worried about the liability!!!! This is what you get from her over regulation.

She wants the federal governemnt to take over local state government, especially education control. She wants a federal education system run from Washington where they will decide what is good and bad for America.

She wants the government to be involved with and question everything I do. I am protected by the constitution, but she will ignore this document to "make my life better."

She wants to make my businesses take care of its employees as if they were my children.

She wants all the people of America to be dependant on the government, trapped forever like those in Russia today - forever in a world where every person looks to the state to provide and takes no initiative and bears no responsibility.

She would grow this great culture that needs and demands like babies.

I believe that she means well. But I know that she is very wrong, and so to me she appears to be a sick person. In my world, she is. 50 years ago she would have been run out of the country. And to a liberal, we have come past that - but to a conservative, we have lost our way and lost what has made us strong and good.

I suggest that the values that made America are much greater than the values we will embrace tomorrow. Tomorrow's America is where people come from around the world to rob from the hard working and erode the great land of freedom. Where laws are second place to court battles... and the providers are all to willing to, out of guilt, give up the rewards of their tremendous efforts in the name of vien humanitarianism.

But the great men of America will be so weakened that they will be held in value only for their wealth, and so their great unrecognized contribution will dwindle... until the day you head in for surgery and die on the table at the hands of a well meaning soft spoken ignoramus who has lost the great art and science of his great and recent past.

And one day the lunar landing will be a wonder of the world like the pyramids, good folk will wonder how we ever achived such amazing and wonderful things. All ready the signs are in the air, those not noticing are blissfully unaware, but those of us in tune with the greatness of man see everyday the lack of achievement all around us. I see it in my father, who I could never emulate - his world was not passed onto me - and he looks at me confused, "how could you succeed so well being the moron that you are?" he wonders. I can not make him understand.

And my mother in law, the nurse, with infinate trust in the medical system, who blasted my notion that doctors today where clueless. Now she sees in the young doctors, that they know less than she does.. she is in denial, but she knows now...

All this is at stake - but you seem to be one who feels that life will go on forever this way, that the world never can change - that we have no impact on the world - that one person can not make a difference. How wrong you are, the next 20 years will prove me correct.

The life is wonderfull. the times are wonderfull - this is why I work to conserve it. H does not agree with me, she wants to "move forward" - I don't like where she is going, not any more than where the other "H" was going.

posted 11-13- 10:40 PM               

Actually SV it DOES make your country look bad.

You just can't see it cause you live there.

posted 11-13- 10:59 PM               

No one is suggesting that teachers should "run a child's life". As for taking children away from parents: who is trying to do that? The only example of that recently was the republicans with their Cuba child-snatching ploy.

What is wrong with teaching morality in school? It sure is better than forcing arbitrary and conflicting Christian dogma on kids like the republicans are always trying to do.

And for which party is truly threatening our constitutional rights, I've already posted on that subject, and its not the democrats.

Why is it that the republicans are always whining about the government taking thier rights away, when I hear the republican dogma and hear the exact opposite? I hear them saying that the police can stop, search and arrest me with no probable cause or warrant. Likewise, they say the police can search my home without a warrant. They also say that if I choose to use recreational drugs, that they will incarcerate me, even though there are no victims. Furthermore, they say that if a parent doesn't share thier political beliefs, thier child can be stolen. They say that christianity is the only proper philosophy, and that athiests, buddists, etc. are not fit to hold political office. They say that our land should be used by private corporations, even if it means that it will be destroyed before my children can use it. They say I can't use free speach or protest unless they approve of it. They say that gay people are immoral and not deserving of civil rights. They would rather have a generation of kids be refused public schooling rather than let children of illegal immigrants get a free high school education. They continually raise the specter of the foriegn boogey-man as a destroyer of America.

Sv, you talk a lot about 'great men'. I'm curious what men you consider great? What qualities make them great?

Oh, and you must realize that airbags do save lives. Your two year old has about a 1/10000 chance of being hurt by an airbag in an accident. Seriously, are you against vaccinations because one in billion times they give you the disease?

Also, remember that our levels of saftey that we enjoy today weren't always here. In the fifties, the corporations fought all auto saftey laws. At the time the average car had no seatbelts and a solid steel rod for the steering wheel. Tens of thousands of people were impaled through the chest during accidents. Corporations thought adding seatbelts and collapsible steering columns was too hard and too expensive. It took the government to make them do it. Remember: corporations pander to the most base public desires. This is not always a good thing.

posted 11-14- 01:14 AM               

I've never heard Hillary argue for this? Where do you get this?

>All ready H wants to get rid of the electoral college... THAT is the constitution right there!

I don't agree with her on this issue, but I wouldn't call her an enemy of the Constitution just because she thinks the Electoral College is arcane. Reasonable people can disagree on this issue.

>She wants to take away people's rights to own guns, another constitutional right.

Not true. To my knowledge, she does not advocate a ban on guns or the taking away of people's rights to own guns.

>My child can play in the world, But I always have the last word, it is my child, take my child away and I will kill you, that means DEAD.

Who wants to take your kid away? Hillary? Janet Reno?

>H actualy wanted the most pure communist act to be implemented in America. She actually proposed that the goverment assign your occupation if you go to med school as part of her commie healthcare plan. What the hell is up with that??? That my friend is communisim at its most base level.

I'll admit I didn't follow the Hillary healthcare debacle very closely, but I don't remember hearing anything like that... even from conservative sources. Do you have a source on this information?

In fact, most of the criticism lodged against the Hillary healthcare reform proposal centered around the fact that it favored the big insurance companies.

In any case, I'm not about to defend her on this issue. She was obviously way out of her depth when she decided to take on healthcare. But to use this as definitive proof of her "communism" is a stretch.

>She wants to take my money to give it to those who do not deserve it. She feels that all are "entitled" to have the same things.

Hillary wants to take your money?

>She makes me wear seat bealts because she knows what is better for me. She also put an airbag in my car that could kill my 2 year old - that no one will disable because they are worried about the liability!!!! This is what you get from her over regulation.

Hillary is involved in seat-belt legislation? I know she is a busy-body, but I didn't know she was that busy. Where can I find out about Hillary's seat belt advocacy?

>She wants the federal governemnt to take over local state government, especially education control.

Take over? How?

>She wants to make my businesses take care of its employees as if they were my children.

Example?

Ugh! I can't go on... your list makes me tired. This is not what I asked for, SV. What I asked for is proof, not more accusations. What you've outlined is your perception of this woman... a quick sketch not of who she actually is, but of who you think she is... the enemy you want her to be. Again, the big cartoon dragon.

posted 11-14- 02:13 AM            

You are so blind. You can't see the forest for the trees.

It is ashame.

Prop sad

P.S. Spanky,
No American gives a rats ass what we look like to other countries. You are just a buffer from Russia.
You will still come begging us for help when you are in a crisis.

Prop still sad

posted 11-14- 03:14 AM               

JT, I totally hear ya man, what good is all this talk without sources to back it up?

AH so now Prop is talking for America.

Still afraid of the commies are ya? What were you raised in the 50s?

Scared of anyone who has a different opinion then your own?

Cower in your bombshelters Prop.

When have we ever begged for you help in a crisis?

Last time we had any threat to our borders it was from the US, and we stopped that.

Members of the Canadian military and US military serve in each others countries.

My Grandfater in the Canadian airforce has been stationed in US bases.

US military men are stationed in my town right now.

We are allies. Would it be out of line to ask for help in the case of a war against Norht America at large?

posted 11-14- 09:47 AM               

So you really don't think people represent things? Don't you understand that she is a "represenative." You have proven to me that you do not understand politics, so I will no longer try. I appreciate your question, but there is no way for me to suggest that H "personaly" wants to take my money. If being a socialist and voting for social programs to increase my taxes - to give my money to other people can not be tied to her personally, well OK.

My source is H. She speaks, does she not? I listen, and understand what she is saying. She is NOT a stupid person, she is cunning and clever, and a great politician. Do you understand that not just anyone can become a senator? If it is so damn easy JT, I suggest you try, I hear it pays well and it is an honor to serve your country.

I can not argue againt you. You do not argue my points, instead you argue samantics. Your defence is shallow and disapointing. You want proof? What is proof? Do I really need to prove that socialists want to take my money? Do I reallyneed to prove that H is a socialist? Do you know who H is??? Have you EVER heard her speak? Have you ever listened to her?

I could go on-line and find many quotes from her supporting each of my points, but I am sure you would just say that I was reading into what she was saying. I am, is is called listening - she works hard to express her ideas, and I hear loud and clear.

The schools take away your child when they make important life decisions for you. Do you know what some schools are now FORCING dental care in school? I don't want some drop out dentist hack touching my kids teeth.

BTW, my BMW manual states that if I put my 2 year old in the pasenger seat, it WILL cause fatal injuries... who do I believe now?

If you don't think that H is involved with seat bealt legislation, they you have no clue abuot how politics works. H is becoming a figure head for the new liberal party. Why/how is she doing this? I will let you think about that, I am tired of giving the answers. You tell me, how is H working to help keep America from becoming Europe?

posted 11-14- 10:14 AM               

I am scared of the commies. I am frightened about their ideas. I would fight with my life to stop communism from taking hold in America. I am no longer afraid of communism in the world, it is failing. But communism can also attack too-well-to-do nation like America. When the people get cocky and think that theyu can stop working, that the hard workers can "afford" to support the scum. We see this mostly in Hollywood, actors get rich quick for doing little work, and so they are filled with guilt and become passionate liberals. Hard working wealthy people feel no guilt, they feel proud to offer the fruit of their labor to thier country, and happy to create great jobs for America. And their reward is to be mocked and punished.

Great men work to better life for all by ACTUALLY DOING something, NOT by giving hand outs. Think about it, it should NOT be hard to understand. If all mankind just sat around, no matter how much money anyone had, everyone would suffer in terrible situation. Now how about if everyone worked hard all day to prodived? Food, cloths, cars, medical care, computers, games - and everyone was poor? The life would be wonderful!

Wealth comes directly from productivity, NOT from financial redistribution. Amrica is great because we reward productivity- we are the hardest workers in the world, and the smartest. All other countries are just jealous. We kick there ass in every way, and they hate us for it. Screw them. They can think about us anything they want. They ry and pretent that is is more "human" to sit around all day and "enjoy life." HA! What? Like animals? They have little dignity. Where is my Enland of old? We are still here! In America!

The English had the greatest culture that ever lived, and we in America are the inheriters of that great culture. OUr founding fathers were the ipitomy of this great culture, the essence of liberty!

No other culture came close, and so in WW2 we defeated the animals, the ones who lived more like ants than men. The ones who followed the queen ant, and had no minds of their own - the ones who beleieved that strength came from social darwinism, that a culture was a animal kingdom machine - and in all theuir strength, we crushed them with our free will and the power of individuality, the innovation that comes from freedom and unchained expression.

And we will win again, although most of my America once agains believes that we are an ant colony, I know they are wrong. But my side will always win, because we are stronger, we are the ones who produce. Those in the city playing with Jesse Jackson - the ones who need to handouts to live, the ones who feed off the great men in America and show such lack of respect - they are the weak. They have no real power, the vote is only a small thing compared with the creating and doing. So long as freedom reigns, they will never take over and make us live like dogs - it is even funny to think that such weaklings could challenge the great strength that radiates from the heart of America.

But that is our democratic nature, and so even the strong are strengthened by the power given to the weak. This is as it should be, all but the lack of thankfulness and respect given to the great men of America.

posted 11-14- 11:01 AM               

I am arguing against government programs that are unconstitutional and programs that I am against. I do not mean at all to suggest that the people should not be free to create such programs at all! I am just VERY against these programs and the represenatives who support them.

Some of these programs are:

1. Social security. I think it was good in its day, but we need to phaze it out, this is clearly a program that promotes governemnt dependancy

2. Socialized medical care. I believe in a government supported healthcaew INSURANCE program, where ALL americans can get basic level insurance to cover midical expenses. All money spent should go into the private sector. NO government healthcare!!! Healthcare would be destroyed.

3. Less taxes. I guess this is not a program, but rather it is resultant from decreasing the public's reliance on the federal government.

4. Less money on education, more focus on quality education - not quantity. More support for private school choices, private school is our salvation...

5. Less use of the military in nation building. More money for defence, I want to see a net DECREAS in military spending while building up the military! We do this by using the military LESS for un-american reasons.

6. Prune the FDA WAY back, it is way too powerful. The FDA is stiffling innovation in a very alarming way.

Programs I think we should spend more on:

1. Fed run communications. Like roads, this is a good area for the fed to come into play. I want the fed to make sure that the internet is very fast and stable and available to EVERYONE on the US, if they want it.

2. Energy. Oil, coal, nuclear, solar - whatever! We need more effort put into solving our energy dependacny problem.

3. Wealfare reform, for real this time. We need to admit that poor people should have less. The job of wealfare should not be to make sure everyone has the same wealth, but to make sure that the poorest of the poor are taken care of at the most basic level, food, housing, and medical. And I don't mean steaks, condos, and MY doctor! I mean bread, mass housing, and MHO style healthcare. It sounds cruel, but I don't think it is. We just need to make sure that they have an option to get out and move forward, and that the day to day living is as inspiring as possible without being too comfortable as to promote dependancy.

posted 11-14- 11:49 AM               

Then, you follow by saying you will fight to the death to stop communism:

"I am scared of the commies. I am frightened about their ideas. I would fight with my life to stop communism from taking hold in America"

Hmmm, I think I'm beginning to support the repeal of the 2nd amendment

As for your program-by-program listing:
Social Security: how does this promote government dependency? It promotes people who worked thier whole life and payed taxes being able to stop working before they die. Social Security is something that I paid for, and I'm going to get it.

Medical care: you sound pretty sensible here I'm surprised you support basic government-paid healthcare insurance for all Americans. That is what you said, right?

Less taxes: If we waste less money, and can keep the deficit down, we don't need to tax as much. Tax cuts WITH the current waste and deficits is a disaster. Have you played Sim City?

Education: I sincerly believe that we have to guarantee an equal education for all of our citizens though High School, and provide inexpensive college education. If we fail to do that, we are only maginifying our problems with regard to the increasingly disenfranchised lower-class. The problem with private schools and vouchers is that it creates a set of 'good' schools which have funding and concerned parents, and a set of 'bad' schools, which only the suckers are left with. Guess how much the kids who go to the bad schools will add to society. We need to strive to make all schools into good schools, and guarantee access to all kids.

Miliary: there is too much spent here. Eisenhower once said [paraphrased] "God help America if they get a president who doesn't understand the military. They will hoodwink him and get away with all kinds of dirty tricks. I understand the miliary, and keep them in check". OK, he was much more elequent than me, but the sentiment was the same. For example, Bush and Gore both suggest spending about as much on education as two B-2 bombers. Similarly, the A-12 (flying wing replacement for the Invader) wasted billions of tax dollars before being cancelled.
I also agree that getting involved in civil wars is a bad idea, and often more destructive to the country than not getting involved. Witness Vietnam and El Salvador. If there is a real plan and a real commitment to rebuilding, this can work, for instance Japan and Germany. It requires strategic thinking, and an indiginous culture which supports a government.

God bless the FDA. Do you know what it was like before the FDA? The cure was often what killed you. Are you against nutritional information on labels also?

Federal communications: The airwaves are our property, just like the national parks. The giveaway of this resource to the media conglomerates was the biggest FCC policy mistake in it's history.

Energy: we need to aggressivly promote alternative energy, for many obvious reasons. One great way to get this started is to require cars to use alternative fuels, and provide subsities to get them developed. If we don't do this, we destroy our national resources, and our auto industry will end up like it was in the 70's, while other countries sell much better, safer and cleaner vehicles.

Welfare reform: you say that all Americans should be guaranteed the basic minimums to survive, like food, shelter and clothing? You sound like a socialist! I think the only way to give these people the incentive to help themselves, is to make them feel like they are part of our culture. To make our culture thier culture. This requires good education and being treated with respect.

Our increasing culture of consumption, with its holy grail of brand-name shoes and cell phones is like heroin to these people - a quick fix that makes them feel good, but adds no value to thier life.

posted 11-14- 12:53 PM               

That's not what I said. I said that to she does not advocate a gun ban or the taking away of people's rights to own guns. If you have proof otherwise, I'd love to hear it. Where is the quote?

>Are you stupid? Sorry if that seems strong, but it is.

Actually, that seems weak. You can't back up your claims and accusations, so you start name-calling. Impressive.

>Both H and B are anti-gun. They have been since before they were in office...

ok... where is the proof?

>gore lost TN, WV, VA, and all the southern states because of that. He is anti-second amendment as well....

Really? Here is what Al Gore said in the second debate...

"But I am not for doing anything that would affect hunters or sportsmen, rifles, shotguns, existing handguns. I do think that sensible gun safety measures are
warranted now."

Doesn't sound like a rallying cry against the 2nd Ammendment to me. You would have to be slightly paranoid to interpret that statement to mean that Al Gore wants to take guns away.

>If you weren't aware. It is too bad you know nothing of socialism or how it works...

OK, Mr. Political Science Expert... explain it to me?

>As I said before, perhaps you should do some reading before supporting something. It could save your freedoms and life.

Unlike you guys, I back my claims up. I'm not asking for anything spectacular from you guys. Just a simple quote or something somebody wrote. I was taught that when I make a statement, I have to back it up.

This is very indicative of why your side never gets traction with the American people. You guys always make claims and you never back them up. People see right through that.
Spectacular claims require spectacular proof. You don't just call someone a "communist" or a "threat to the state" without having evidence of that. And, sorry, more accusations or restating an accusation is not proof.

>Oh BTW, hope you don't have a slightly off beat religion, or that you don't live the way they want you to..... you could end up like the Branch Davidians or the Weavers in Idaho.... Janet Reno.... and yes, they will take your kids BTW... it has happened in California already.

Slightly off-beat religion? People who barricade themselves inside a compound, shoot and murder federal agents, and then torch themselves are members of a slightly off-beat religion? That takes the cake. Tell that to the families of the dead agents.

>Get ready JT and you democrats.... your ignorance is starting to pay off..... enjoy....

What?

[This message has been edited by JT (edited 11-14-2000).]

posted 11-14- 01:02 PM               

However, I would like to respond to your questions on Social Security. You ask "how does this promote government dependency?"

The original intention of SS was a retirement "suplement", a supplement to what people have saved on their own. The slippery slope of socialism has convinced millions of Americans that SS should be the primary or only source of retirement income and this is, in fact, the case for millions. Rather then plan and save for their own retirement they are relying on the government to take care of them in their old age, ergo...government dependancy. This is why millions of elderly panic at the mere suggestion of altering Social Security because it is all they have, as intended by the Socialists (Democrats).

You say SS is something that you paid for and you're going to get it. Don't forget, every dollar you put in was matched by your employer. When you get your annual SS statement look at the total contributions figure and double it. Then take those figures to an accountant or actuary and let them run the numbers. You are getting about a 1% return on your money, SS investments don't even keep up with inflation. This is why it is today a "pay as you go" plan. There is no SS trust fund, no SS savings account sitting there with your money and earning interest. This is why it is projected to run out of money because in future years there will be fewer people paying in than taking out!

This is why Bush wants younger workers to be able to invest some of their SS funds in secure private investments...an idiot can get a better return on his SS taxes than the government gets!

As with most things, private enterprise can do a better job than the government. But the Democratic Party is scaring people into relying on the Federal Government...for medical, food (school lunches and breakfasts are just a start), retirement, and education...and the bigger it gets, more and more people need the government for jobs.

posted 11-14- 01:04 PM               

quote:

---

Social Security: how does this promote government dependency? It promotes people who worked thier whole life and payed taxes being able to stop working before they die. Social Security is something that I paid for, and I'm going to get it.

---

That is fine, but why force people to be a member? I say keep SS, but letme out! No pay-in, no pay-out, fine! But now I am FORCED against my will to join this stupid program that is a BAD BAD BAD investment of MY fucking money. How dare the governemnt take my money for this. Why do they? Because the system is a failier and they want me to bail it out! Screw that! I am not for tax evasion, but man what I wouldn't do to avoid paying this SS tax.

quote:

---

Medical care: you sound pretty sensible here I'm surprised you support basic government-paid healthcare insurance for all Americans. That is what you said, right?

---

I love it, when ideas are closer, I am "sensible" LOL. Yes, I support any kind of basic wealfare, I really do - it is a great service of the state and helps me because it better the world around me in an effective manner.

quote:

---

Less taxes: If we waste less money, and can keep the deficit down, we don't need to tax as much. Tax cuts WITH the current waste and deficits is a disaster. Have you played Sim City?

---

I agree with this.

quote:

---

God bless the FDA. Do you know what it was like before the FDA? The cure was often what killed you. Are you against nutritional information on labels also?

---

I agree with the concept of the FDA, but I am certain that they have too much power now. Innovation is almost DEAD. Trust me, a business I want to do - and would do - that would help all Americans is stopped thanks to the FDA's lack of imagination. I would never want the FDA to go away, they are very vital, but they have over stepped their bonds now. Nutrition labels, good = monitoriing public health, resterants, food producers = good. Monopolising the medical and drug industry, very very bad. It is their way or no way, and their way is only hurting people on a vast scale every day.

quote:

---

Welfare reform: you say that all Americans should be guaranteed the basic minimums to survive, like food, shelter and clothing? You sound like a socialist!

---

No, a socialist wants GOOD food, shelter, and medical access by all. Also socialists want to force ALL people to use the one system, they do not want it to be only for the needy. I can not understand why people have trouble telling the differenceon this one...

quote:

---

I think the only way to give these people the incentive to help themselves, is to make them feel like they are part of our culture. To make our culture thier culture. This requires good education and being treated with respect.

---

You are wrong, the desire to get ahead is inside one's self. You can not promote it from the outside. Look at the history of the Jews vs. the blacks in America - there is much to be learned there...

quote:

---

Our increasing culture of consumption, with its holy grail of brand-name shoes and cell phones is like heroin to these people - a quick fix that makes them feel good, but adds no value to thier life.

---

here you are most wrong of all. The liberals have demoralized wealth, and so have demoralized dignity and productivity. "Stuff" is much more than you suggest, beatiful houses dignifiy life, clean streets, nice cloths, great magic healthcare, fun games, so many nice things in life - that is what man deserves and works for. I think it is all in your mind, that "stuff" is bad. "Stuff" gives us more food with less toil, how dare you forsake technology that has made you and keeps you well. You are a traitor to your self.

I eggagerate of course in making my point- I have very much respect for my fellow man who is willing to argue about such things, it is not a matter of stupidity to believe such things, it is only a metter of ignorance, ignorance about how things really work today and of why we should be more thankful than we are.

It is sad how we read each other's posts and only chime up when we disagree or agree, we wait for our oppertunity to jump and and express our views. We very rarely take anything away from discussion - we do not read to understand, we read to respond... I am as guilty if not more guilty of this. Why do we do this?

posted 11-14- 01:05 PM               

Just amazing.

posted 11-14- 01:24 PM               

Are you really suggesting that people can not POSSIBLY save for theiw future? Do you have THAT low of opinion of your fellow man?

posted 11-14- 01:26 PM               

If social security was an option, would you pay?

If it is so God Damn great, why not make it optional? Everyone would do it, right?