posted 11-09- 09:46 AM               

ROFLMAO!

Hate to say it ... if "you" find this confusing... and you wanted to vote for Gore... I think America is served best by you "NOT" getting it right!

posted 11-09- 10:05 AM               

I dunno... Those big-black arrows pointing to where you should punch are quite confusing!

Sheeeeez!

posted 11-09- 10:58 AM               

1. While I personally think that the card is clear, I have no question in my mind that old people might find it confusing. The district where the confusion took place consists of mostly old people.

2. I think it is a given that Republicans would be just as shrill in crying foul if it was thier guy who lost thousands of votes illegitimately.

Despite all that, I really think this election should go to Boosh. Like I said in another thread, I'd like to see Boosh try to carry out his incomprehensible policies and tax plan so that he will be discredited once and for all.

Anyway, don't underestimate the seriousness of this situation. We have a situation now where NO ONE can win this election. What ever side loses will cry foul for years. It is a huge mess. The deep divide in this country will only get deeper after this election is sorted out.

How did this happen?

posted 11-09- 11:40 AM               

Actually...

The county just north of the one who cried foul regarding ballot cards "confusing nature". Used the exact same card (and is equally senior bias).. had a "MUCH" lower Buchanon count. So the "old folks confusion" doesn't hold water.

Also of note ... Per pre-election polling... The county is also been shown to be populated with a high number of Buchanon supporters. I suspect very-little confusion actually happened.

(sniff.sniff..)... Something smell funny?

[As MK does... I preface this post that I got my info from the AP news )

posted 11-09- 11:44 AM               

1. Palm Beach County was the only county that used the "butterfly ballot" layout in question.

2. Palm Beach County had 19,000 ballots tossed out, due to being "double-punched."

3. That number of spoiled ballots is more than twice per capita of the spoiled ballots in other county in Florida.

4. The number of straight Buchanan votes also far exceeds the amount of straight Buchanan votes per capita in any other county in Florida. From what I can tell from watching the media today, Palm Beach County has a high minority population. Not necessarily the types the think Patrick J. Buchanan is a really swell fella.

5. The head of elections in the state of Florida seems to think that choosing the most powerful man on the planet should follow the same rules as professional football, with the exception that the instant replay and the ability to file a protest after the game that the National Football League allows is taken away.

6. It gets even more complicated. Apparently, Florida is one of the states that does not require the Electoral College votes in their state to mirror the popular vote in their state.

Apparently, 7 times out of the last 100 elections, they have gone against the popular vote of their state.

One analyst advised that the possibility exists that the Electoral votes in Florida could wind up being influenced by the popular vote of the nation as a whole.

Oh My God.

7. Another point: It could well be decided that the Constitution has no provisions for any perceived voting impropriety, unless the cloudy concept of "First Impression" is found to be applicable in this case. That however, is not a part of the Constitution.

If for some reason the results of the election were determined to be incorrect or fraudulent, then the President, apparently as the Constitution mandates, would be chosen by the House of Representatives. Wow.

Caveat: All of this crap is stuff I've heard on TV. I do not take any responsibility for its correctness, nor am I some sort of expert on law, the Constitution, or election standards.

8. This is the most incredible thing I have ever witnessed in my entire life, and I'm afraid I will not be able to stop watching TV for the next several weeks, and possibly months, as the Electoral College does not announce their formal vote for some time.

Oh My God.

This is just what I did not want, even more than a Bush victory. More clouds. More stigma. More kharmic baggage.

Only in America.

I think at this time, more than finger pointing, further division, and alienation of everyone's feelings, no matter who you wanted to be the next President of the United States, now is a time for us to reach a well thought-out end to this incredible mess.

Right now, more than pulling for Al Gore or George Bush, I'm pulling for America, and our democratic, if not federalist, way of life.

posted 11-09- 11:52 AM               

Note - filled with names in LARGE BOLD PRINT to help all the seniors see.

It's amazing people were in too much of a "hurry to vote" (heard over and over) that they couldn't a.) Count b.) Follow an arrow. c.) ask for help if they think they made a mistake.

posted 11-09- 11:52 AM               

This is a very dangerous situation and it's getting worse. Have you seen the protests starting?

posted 11-09- 11:54 AM               

The 19000 double punch is an important issue
with me. If it was an "OOps I meant to vote
for Gore and I just punched Buchanan so now
I'll punch Gore" type of thing I think it
is significant and would indicate people were
confused.

posted 11-09- 12:20 PM               

If GW wins FL, he wins fair.

I don't think that the democrats want to go to the area of voter fraud. Bush could open many more issues on democratic voter fraud. I don't think democrats are just more evil here, it is just that it makes more sense as a tactic with their voter base.

If Bush conceeds even though he has fairly won FL, how in world is that going to make America a better place? When a candidate conceeds because of political pressure, that is the worse case scenario by far...

posted 11-09- 12:30 PM               

Three words ...

"Smokes for votes"

posted 11-09- 12:38 PM               

Sv, were you suggesting that if voter fraud were committed (I don't think it was), that it should be ignored? I think that sounds bad to the country.

I think any examination of the 'intentions' of the voters after the fact is very dangerous, and sets a precident that could be disasterous in the future.

posted 11-09- 12:41 PM               

If Bush won the electoral, he is indeed the president.

posted 11-09- 01:27 PM               

I was only kidding about Bush conceeding.
Of course the constitution should be
followed. I for one beilive in keeping the
electorial college. I don't like the idea
of today's politicians mucking around in the
constitution set up by our forefathers.

posted 11-09- 01:53 PM               

Oh Mary...

posted 11-09- 02:43 PM            

The ballot was published in the paper and sent out 2 weeks before the election to every registered voter and no complaints. It is only after they see the results that they say we were confused.

I realize it's everyones right to vote but is not everyone's obligation to vote. If you can't follow a bold black arrow that points to a hole, then you should be hit in the head with a tack hammer.
And yes, that ballot is invalid.

And these people probably shoud not vote due to them being unarmed with basic preschool skills.

I find it quite ammusing the tantrums and sit-ins that are going on down there. It is like they are saying I am going to hold my breath until you do what I want.

When liberals are not in power, they are funny.

Show some class Gore for once in your life and bow out like a man.

Prop out!

posted 11-09- 03:16 PM               

I can't decide, it's just too close to call.

posted 11-09- 03:20 PM               

I would like to see Gore win, but I think that this recount is going to make the next president have a shadow over them that will limit thier effectivness.

posted 11-09- 05:49 PM            

People seem to forget that the Electoral College is a vestige of the early American system, wherein the American people did NOT vote for the Presidency. When the US was established only the House was elected by popular vote. The electoral college members were chosen by their state legislatures and were expected to vote as their legislature mandated... often they did not and voted however they chose to.

In my opinion the system of the electoral college is like the appendix... something that's there but isn't needed. The strange part of all this is that even if there were no electoral college in place the popular vote is so close that we would be in much the same situation as we are know... we would still have to wait for the overseas ballots to be counted and would probably have recounts going nationwide.

A close election such as this is truly amazing. Neither candidate has a true mandate of the people so you can bet that both will want to be absolutely certain of the outcome before either one even considers stepping aside.

If Gore comes out on top in Florida I predict you will see a recount called for in Wisconsin (11 electoral votes) and Iowa (7). Both states were won by a margin of less than 8000 votes and have yet to count oversees absentee ballots. If Wisconsin were overturned Gore won Florida he would be left with 269 electoral votes...assuming the electoral college voters all go with the popular votes of their respective states.

This is about as exciting as it gets in politics without an out and out civil war!

posted 11-09- 08:08 PM               

And how DARE the democrats suggest that they know the number of confused voters... HOW? No one could possible EVER know that information... and no, you can not just trust people to say that THEY were the confused ones LOL! For many people, this is a holy war, and they will certainly do anything to get another vote for their guy. To even hint at the notion that Gore desrves to win because of this issue is making me sick.

posted 11-09- 08:18 PM               

That being said, I agree that the argument that the voters made a mistake and therefore get 'do-overs' is kind of disgusting. The next step would be to suggest that all the people who didn't vote should get a chance to vote now.

posted 11-10- 08:53 AM               

Apparently a precendent has been set a few years back in Massachusetts.

Dellahunt (sp?) D, lost in a primary, but after further investigation, it was determined that the intent of the people was to vote for him, and then end result was that a lot of the voting cards had been punched improperly.

There, after the court order, the ballots were looked at by officials, and you could actually see where someone sort of half-punched, and then went, "Oh Shit!," and punched another cleanly.

Those would automatically be thrown out by the counting machines.

This morning's news-watching has also yielded the concept of "hanging chad." This is what professional election officals refer to as the stuff that gets hung-up in the counting machine.

If the 19,000 votes in Palm Beach County are available, officials would be able to look them over by hand, as was done in the landmark Dellahunt case, and see if they could determine intent.

Hmmm. I imagine there is a good chance those ballots have been conveniently destroyed.

Now I know that one basically laudable opinion is that if you're too stupid to vote correctly, it's like an intelligence test for voting. I don't know if I can argue that point, I almost agree...but then we'd probably have to disqualify a lot of candidates from both parties from even running in the first place...a lot of them are on the level of double-punching voters.

I think the main crime being perpetrated here is by the election officials in Palm Beach County, and the Democratic and Republican officials who "OK'd" a balloting process that caused 13-14,000 spoiled ballots 4 years ago.

Oh yeah, and how about the incredible dolt who is in charge of the elections for the state of Florida? Anybody see that Mensa candidate yesterday?

He likened the choosing of the most powerful man on Earth to a football or baseball game where there had been bad refereeing or umpiring. He said that just like in sports, all that mattered at the end of the game was the score on the board.

"Hmmmm..." said the female anchor-woman. "Don't they have instant replay in many situations?" to the network anchor.

The network anchor went on to point out that not only that, this is a contest to see who becomes the most powerful man in the world, not a sporting event, and even then, in the National Football League, mechanisms exist that allow teams to file complaints of protest after a contest, if they feel the outcome has been arrived at unfairly.

How could idiots like that keep a system in place that had so many discrepancies? Well, I guess crap like that gets swept under the rug in a rout, but here we have a case where so far only 327 votes seperate the candidates, out of SIX MILLION VOTES. Wow.

And while the out-of-country ballots will no doubt favor Bush, it may not be by an incredible landslide.

I saw a couple service men on TV yesterday who said they had voted for Gore. This could be a product of them watching the debate, and seeing that Gore has more in his military budget than Bush.

Add to that the percentage of folks who may be on holiday in Israel, and it's not necessarily a given that the out-of-country votes would necessarily blow Gore out of the water.

Hell, we wouldn't be in this mess right now most likely if four years ago the idiots in Florida had heeded their wake-up call. I believe that even that spoiled figure of 4 years ago was still over twice what any other county reported as spoiled ballots.

Patrick J. Buchanan blew me away last night by admitting he thinks a lot of his votes may have been from people who thought they were voting for Gore. In pure Buchanan fashion he added, "But those are MY votes...they did in fact vote for ME...Pat Buchanan whether they meant to or not!" But hey, sure was refreshing to hear old Mr. "Foreign-policy?-foreign-policy?-the-United-States-Air-Force-is-MY-foreign-policy!" admit that fact.

This whole thing just keeps getting weirder and weirder.

So Prop, Jerry, Sv, all you guys, I just want to know what's really going on with all this count stuff.

I'm not trying to be a sore loser, or prolong the death throes of a wounded duck.

I think we all know there's a good chance Bush will win. But you don't do this kind of thing on a "good chance."

Taking the Rams and giving away the points (as soon as Warner and Faulk are back!) is a "good chance." Buying Intel when it's under 35 a share is a "good chance."

The current 327 vote margin for George Bush equals .0001% by my calculations. That's not really a clear call in my estimation.

Hell, I might even agree that Gore should concede the election if they'd promise to run the head of elections in Florida, the head of elections in Palm Beach County, and the Democratic and Republican officials who OK'd those stinking, problem-prone ballots through the streets of Palm Beach, tarred and feathered!

I don't see what the problem is with due process here. I don't think there'd be any confusion if this wasn't the closest race in U.S. history.

And actually, if I were George Bush, even though this is the kind of thing that could drive a man to drink ( couldn't help myself! Hee-hee...), I wouldn't want to "win" an election with the stigma that say, JFK had.

For years, all people did was whine about how it was fixed, how Organized Crime "assisted" in getting him the vote (funny how Bobby went after Organized Crime as soon as he was Attorney General), and I would want the people of American and the world to understand, without a shadow of a doubt, that I had been clearly elected the next President of the United States.

That's why I don't think there should be a problem carefully making sure that we are doing things correctly, and that the count of the votes is sure. I mean heck guys, we went from 1700 to 327 so far.

I'd want to feel damn sure I could look any whining, bleeding-heart liberal in the eye, and say, "Yeah, I won. You know I won. Fair and square. Now go chain yourself to something, and whine and bleat at the news cameras until snot runs down your face."

Frankly, I think this attitude of "We won...give me my basketball, I'm going home" attitude is as bad as the Democratic whining about Palm Beach County.

Oh gee...that's surprising. Politician's whining...

posted 11-10- 09:47 AM               

To me, it is simple. The votes were close, so a recount was the law. If Bush wins the recount, he wins - this is the way it must be.

This is NOT abuot voter intent. The system is set up before the election, both candidates play by the same rules. The counting machines are part of the system. If people want to doa hand recount to look for "intention" then they MUST do a hand recount of all the USA! Why should a person's vote in FL be more important than anywhere else in the US?

It is close, but trying to win the presidency via lawsuits is not the way to go, unless there was a case. I don't think there is a legal case! What is the case? There is NO slution to the problem. There is NO WAY to determine if people voeted incorrectly, NO WAY. We can see than many people screwed up voting, but this happens everywhere! There are always many votes thrown out.

You MUST respect the system. Gore better careful before questioning America's voting system. If he questions the "voter's intention" in FL, he will certainly be required to rais the "fairness" issue (as he puts it) all across America - and it is a known fact that Gore stands to have more to lose than Bush when it comes to fair voting practices

posted 11-10- 10:22 AM               

We've got to go with the official count, whenever that is pronounced. If we entertain the argument that people didn't vote the way they intended to, then we get into a situation where we think about allowing people who couldn't find the polling place to re-vote, or people who were 'having a bad day' getting to re-vote.

Now, assuming that FL goes to Bush by 2000 votes or so after the absentee ballots come in, we have a situation in which only two electors changing their vote to Gore would get him in office. The system allows this, the rules allow this, and electors have done this before (but not in such a close election).

Lets say that this does in fact happen (unlikely, but maybe?). Gore's only chance at having an effective presidency will be in how he handled this crisis. If he was percieved to have fought against the rules, or tried to use a legal loophole to grab the election, he will have a tainted presidency. If he handles this crisis by saying "let the election officials work this out, and I'll abide by thier decision", then he would gain the respect of the opposition which would help him if he were to end up in office.

Actually, scratch that. Either way, if he gets in office he will be hated and dogged by the Republicans for the next four years. If Bush gets into office he will be hated and dogged by the Democrats for the next four years.

posted 11-10- 10:46 AM               

I mean, Gore would be hated and dogged by the Republicans, even if he won the popular vote by 35%, and Florida by 20%.

It would be four more years of "The Stained and Tainted White House," and "Just a Branch Off the Clinton Tree," for four years.

Four more years of Rush, blustering and whining 6 hours a day. Actually, I think he could have a Republican White House, Senate, and House, have wild sex with Shania Twain every night, and he'd still bluster and whine 6 hours a day. (My apologies Shania, just using you as an example...) I'd like to tie that guy to a chair, gag him, and play an endless tape loop of Al Gore sighing at 120db's...

Bleech.

Now, if Bush does indeed prevail, he will go into office knowing he has been elected president by a series of events that ensure that his presidency will not only be continually questioned for four years by a bunch of really snotty liberals who use a lot of big words, but also that he won by the smallest margin in the history of the United States.

Like I said a day or two ago, I almost wish Bush had won convincingly in the popular vote and the State of Florida vote, just so we'd have four years of actually watching a president, not someone's panties, and have a really good election in '04.

Oh well. Alas, Babylon.