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Author Topic:   The great illusion
Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
posted 10-19- 12:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spanky the Mad Dog   Click Here to Email Spanky the Mad Dog     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Spanky here...

K I picked up this freaking great book, have any of you read it?

Here is a small discription for ya's cause this writer can say it better then I.

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Norman Angell was born in Holbeach in 1872. At seventeen he emigrated to America but 1898 he moved to Paris where he became manager of the French edition of the Daily Mail. He was made aware of the dangers to world peace by the Moroccan crisis of 1905.

Angell became a pacifist and in his book The Great Illusion (1909), argued that a European war would be economically disadvantageous for victor as well as vanquished. The Great Illusion had a tremendous impact on the intellectual community and study centres based on the book were established at universities and in industrial centres.
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here is a much larger section further explaining the book, I'm only on page 20 and its already a mind blowing book.

1910, Norman Angell's The Great Illusion

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Norman Angell, The Great Illusion, New York and London, 1913, pps. ix-xiii, passim, 381-82.
A selection from the author's synopsis and concluding chapter.
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What are the fundamental motives that explain the present rivalry of armaments in Europe, notably the Anglo-German ? Each nation pleads the need for defence; but this implies that someone is likely to attack, and has therefore a presumed interest in so doing. What are the motives which each State thus fears its neighbors may obey?

They are based on the universal assumption that a nation, in order to find outlets for expanding population and increasing industry, or simply to ensure the best conditions possible for its people, is necessarily pushed to territorial expansion and the exercise of political force against others.... It is assumed that a nation's relative prosperity is broadly determined by its political power; that nations being competing units, advantage in the last resort goes to the possessor of preponderant military force, the weaker goes to the wall, as in the other forms of the struggle for life.

The author challenges this whole doctrine. He attempts to show that it belongs to a stage of development out of which we have passed that the commerce and industry of a people no longer depend upon the expansion of its political frontiers; that a nation's political and economic frontiers do not now necessarily coincide; that military power is socially and economically futile, and can have no relation to the prosperity of the people exercising it; that it is impossible for one nation to seize by force the wealth or trade of another -- to enrich itself by subjugating, or imposing its will by force on another; that in short, war, even when victorious, can no longer achieve those aims for which people strive....

Conquest in the modern world is a process of multiplying by x, and then obtaining the original figure by dividing by x. For a modern nation to add to its territory no more adds to the wealth of the people of such nation than it would add to the wealth of Londoners if the City of London were to annex the county of Hertford.

The fight for ideals can no longer take the form of fight between nations, because the lines of division on moral questions are within the nations themselves and intersect the political frontiers. There is no modern State which is completely Catholic or Protestant, or liberal or autocratic, or aristocratic or democratic, or socialist or individualist; the moral and spiritual struggles of the modern world go on between citizens of the same State in unconscious intellectual cooperation with corresponding groups in other states, not between the public powers of rival States.

War has no longer the justification that it makes for the survival of the fittest; it involves the survival of the less fit. The idea that the struggle between nations is a part of the evolutionary law of man's advance involves a profound misreading of the biological analogy.

The warlike nations do not inherit the earth; they represent the decaying human element....

Are we, in blind obedience to primitive instincts and old prejudices, enslaved by the old catchwords and that curious indolence which makes the revision of old ideas unpleasant, to duplicate indefinitely on the political and economic side a condition from which we have liberated ourselves on the religious side? Are we to continue to struggle, as so many good men struggled in the first dozen centuries of Christendom -- spilling oceans of blood, wasting mountains of treasure -- to achieve what is at bottom a logical absurdity, to accomplish something which, when accomplished, can avail us nothing, and which, if it could avail us anything, would condemn the nations of the world to never-ending bloodshed a nd the constant defeat of all those aims which men, in their sober hours, know to be alone worthy of sustained endeavor?

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I don't have much to say about it except its looking really cool, and you guys might want to keep your eyes open for it.

I found a 1914 special edition, its still in decent shape but i'm carefull with it.

Just another book on the shelf for the Little one to read when he is older.

If nothing else its a great look at one mans radical ideas about war and commerce before ww1.

There is also a 1933 edition where he looks back on what happened in the world after the first book.

So far I totally agree with what he is saying.

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Spyder
Pilot
posted 10-19- 01:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spyder   Click Here to Email Spyder     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Pig's arse. It's as much a part of our nature as it is for other animals to attack/eat anything that invades their territory.

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Sv
Pilot
posted 10-19- 09:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sv   Click Here to Email Sv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree witht that concept, and modern transport and communications only heightens the idea. But this concept is only in force between like-minded nations, like Europe and Ameirca. Strife between other nations do not fit this mold. Religious, economic, and governmental idealogies still cause the need for the military to remain a focus point in world politics.

Like minded people will band together to be with others that hold their beliefs, wheather religious, economic, or governmental. These groups of people act at the local level in communities, and at the global level in nations. These nations are indeed under constant threat of disbandment, and so defence is critical.

If all people had more in common than in differnces and were willing to put aside smaller differnces for a majority rule, then we could have a world nation. Until then, nationalism will dominate the world order. This is not "good" or "bad" - it just must be so. Anything less would be unacceptable and not do justice to man, we are more than we seem, we are our ideals and beliefs - not animals.

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Jerry
Pilot
posted 10-19- 11:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jerry   Click Here to Email Jerry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry Sv, you're just not PC. Don't you know that "Diversity" is in? Likemindedness is a code word for racism.

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Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
posted 10-19- 04:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spanky the Mad Dog   Click Here to Email Spanky the Mad Dog     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Spanky here...

This is the key point guys, I think you missed it.

This is what he is talking about.

"it is impossible for one nation to seize by force the wealth or trade of another -- to enrich itself by subjugating, or imposing its will by force on another; that in short, war, even when victorious, can no longer achieve those aims for which people strive.... "

In the book he is proving that point.

Remember this is back in 1900 when people still attacked other countrys mainly for monetary gain. Now wars are about totally different things.

He is trying to show that how in our modern world its not worth it to attack another country even if you win. You won't benifit like you might have before.

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Spyder
Pilot
posted 10-20- 02:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spyder   Click Here to Email Spyder     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Grab the arab oilfields, the victor wins plenty.
Do you think we would be that quick to respond to their internal affairs if they didn't control most of the world's oil production? Nope!

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Spyder
Pilot
posted 10-20- 04:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spyder   Click Here to Email Spyder     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Not animals Sv? We all belong to that order.
I'm not an animal, I'm a human being. Remember that line? Bollocks!

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Sv
Pilot
posted 10-20- 08:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sv   Click Here to Email Sv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Indeed we are not, our world has nothing in common with theirs. All we enjoy, look forward to, and dread are not of animal. We are what we fear to lose upon or death. No animal is privy to this world...

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Spyder
Pilot
posted 10-20- 09:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spyder   Click Here to Email Spyder     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So we think on a higher level, are you saying we're not part of the animal kingdom now? Burn the books! burn them all.....

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Mk10 225th
Pilot
posted 10-20- 09:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mk10 225th   Click Here to Email Mk10 225th     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dang it Spyder, have you been watching "The Postman" again?

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Mk10 Maj=225th=

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Sv
Pilot
posted 10-20- 10:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sv   Click Here to Email Sv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Our bodies are of the animal kingdom, and are also are the grand machine that grants us access to the real world that we live in, the world of ideas and concepts.

Animals come and go, but our world is timeless. The machine may quit, but nothing can take away that we had our brief access to the timeless world.

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Jerry
Pilot
posted 10-20- 10:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jerry   Click Here to Email Jerry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What about sheep?

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Spyder
Pilot
posted 10-20- 06:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spyder   Click Here to Email Spyder     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Burn them too!

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Jerry
Pilot
posted 10-20- 07:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jerry   Click Here to Email Jerry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
But then...what would I do for se.....oops....forget it.

Yeah, burn them all...then they can't talk.

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Mirthain
Pilot
posted 10-20- 11:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mirthain   Click Here to Email Mirthain     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hell, that guy was nuts even then. You can't gain from subjegating others... BS people, that is true even by todays standards... hell the germans did pretty well taking the oil fields in rumania, they didn't win, but they sure did well by it for the time... Please, that is wishful thinking no matter what the time period... it is blatantly false and is a line of thinking that has become popular now in the west... scary... sorry kids, but taking what other have will ALWAYS be a great way to profit.. it is the way of the world... and we just wage war slightly differently now, we run them out of business, then when they broke and on the verge or ruin, we come in, invest and make a fortune on rebuilding and modernizing what we so recently were econimically keeping down...
But taking over a land, either economically or militarily will always be a way to improve your own standard of living and will always be feasible.
Mirthain=FC=

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Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
posted 10-21- 03:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spanky the Mad Dog   Click Here to Email Spanky the Mad Dog     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Spanky here...

Same old arguments, mirth, I don't have time to write out all his counters to all those old arguments.

Get the book and read it.

Unfotunatly that little blurb doesn't do even the first 20 pages of the book justice.

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pops
Pilot
posted 10-23- 03:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pops   Click Here to Email pops     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ooops...Sorry...I was sure this was going to be about B-17II.

As you were...Smoke'em if you got'em.

[This message has been edited by pops (edited 10-23-2000).]

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Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
posted 10-25- 11:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spanky the Mad Dog   Click Here to Email Spanky the Mad Dog     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Spanky here...

LOL

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