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Author
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Topic: The SDoE forum.
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JV44Siggi
Pilot
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posted 01-09- 05:22 PM
   
a[This message has been edited by JV44Siggi (edited 01-11-2000).] IP: Logged |
Mudshark
Pilot
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posted 01-09- 06:57 PM
Siggi,
I read all those posts by yourself and sp@anky and find nothing offensive in them.
Censorship in any form is a terrible thing and just as bad is abuse of power.I see both of these things on that board and have no desire to post there at all.I'll stay right here where it feels like home to me and I'm sure B-17 II will be discussed at length in the "off topic" section upon it's release and if there is a dispute I'm certain it'll be moved to "flame wars"!Funny how that works out!mudshark =FC= IP: Logged |
Private Roger
Pilot
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posted 01-09- 07:56 PM
I don't see the rules at Darrens site as a problem myself, just a matter of adapting to your surroundings. For instance, when my grandmother was alive I would never think of acting in her house the way I did everyday at my buddy's place. I guess it was because I didn't want to disrespect her. That and she would smack me.  She had her rules, i.e. no cussing, no cards, no picking food while she prepared it (I got my hand slapped more than once for that one)  I followed them. hey, it was her house. I feel that same way about Darren's at Bombs Away. His house, his rules. If you choose to call it censorship.....go ahead. That word doesn't put any fear in me. We are censored either by ourselves or someone else everyday. It's a part of life. This isn't meant to be an attack on you Siggi. Just my 2 cents worth. You probably want change back don't cha?
PR=FC=
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JV44Siggi
Pilot
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posted 01-09- 09:43 PM
a[This message has been edited by JV44Siggi (edited 01-11-2000).] IP: Logged |
bobalou
Pilot
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posted 01-09- 10:41 PM
Mudshark - The posts you refer to were fine, Siggi and Sp@anky wanted the "freedom" to use obscenities and flame attacks on anyone using that board. That boards community stood up and said no to that. THAT'S A PROBLEM? THERE ARE THREE SIDES TO ANY STORY, YOUR SIDE - THEIR SIDE - AND THE TRUTH. As Siggi has decided to edit his posts I am also editing mine in regards to his edits. [This message has been edited by bobalou (edited 01-11-2000).] IP: Logged |
Mirthain
Pilot
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posted 01-09- 11:20 PM
Wow,
One thing for You bobalou, we typically don't jump off the deep end on a first post. We do try to exemplify some civility here. If you are offended, then please try to be civil and point out the errors. But this was just going one step in making Siggi's point about that board. I have no intention in stopping by a board that condones this type of behaviour. Thank you for the warning Siggi, and may a board that doesn't spawn such spurious hate filled messages appear for a game that could be quite fun to play.
Mirthain=FC=IP: Logged |
Werner Molders
Pilot
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posted 01-10- 12:29 AM
Siggi - I must say I am more and more impressed by you as I read your more recent posts. This is the kind of stuff that keeps me coming back. But, next time you come in the fsic door, close it behind you, will ya? Good to hear from you, Werner
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Do you support SDOE online? Email Werner to be listed in SDOE's online phonebook today! IP: Logged |
Michael
Pilot
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posted 01-10- 01:00 AM
Well, I think Pete may have something there. I have deleted what I posted here, having since decided that there is no point in fanning the flames here about a dispute on another board having nothing to do with the simulation this board is devoted to. Anyone wishing to read the bizarre and startling quotations from the moderator of the other board that I had posted in response to Bobalou, may go of course read them in full on the other board in question.
[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 01-10-2000).] IP: Logged |
Pete Hawk
Pilot
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posted 01-10- 01:47 AM
We are now witnessing the kind of posts (not naming any names) that lead to my sites/boards' demise. It really stinks when you put out a new plane (not necessarily my two recent ones, but anyone in general) and can't wait to get some feedback on the forum from everyone... only to find that there are 80 posts about some pissy little argument that has nothing to do with the game, and maybe two or three under your new masterpiece's post representing many hours of hard work. It's not right. This is my last post (I hope) under any topic like this. It's not Siggi, it's posts like this that anyone is capable of starting. IP: Logged |
bobalou
Pilot
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posted 01-10- 06:12 AM
mirthain & molders:
Sorry to disapoint you but i've been posting to the sdoe forums since the blue board.If you think I've gone off the deep end, too bad you didn't read all of siggi's posts in those forums. As far as censorship goes, doesn't this thread exemplify some of the different forms it can take. IP: Logged |
JV44Siggi
Pilot
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posted 01-10- 06:26 AM
a[This message has been edited by JV44Siggi (edited 01-11-2000).] IP: Logged |
Sv
Pilot
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posted 01-10- 07:29 AM
I think there is a special type of "censorship" at work here. Basicaly the BB is a tool for communication. It is the job of moderators to keep the board functioning as a tool - creating new areas as need to keep the flow of communication sensible. If this type of "censorship" was not allowed, the BB could be sabotaged by "enemys" of the subject matter of the BB.Its kinda like laws - having laws always cuts into our freedom, but the "majority" agree that they are needed - so they are tolerated. It's really a matter of politics, not free speech. It is free in this sense: if censorship is over-done, who would want to stay at that BB? We still have free speech so long as we are allowed to create our won BBs. If no one shows up to post at your BB, that is just another exression of free speech -Sv IP: Logged |
Michael Harrison
General
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posted 01-10- 07:54 AM
Fair warning...I'm moving this to Off-topic later today. If it gets any hotter I'll move it to flame wars. IP: Logged |
JV44Siggi
Pilot
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posted 01-10- 08:18 AM
a[This message has been edited by JV44Siggi (edited 01-11-2000).] IP: Logged |
Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 01-10- 12:27 PM
Spanky here... Well at leasts we have a flame wars section!!!! All that started this Whole thing was darren stateing that if you swore or engaged in a flame war you would be banned. That I don't aggree with, there is nothing wrong with a good flame war. Swearing included. I love to argue, its practicaly a pastime of mine. All i said was that in the B17 2 forum we were being censored and I didn't like it. Instead of just saying "yeah your right spanky its a form of censorship but we accept it and we accept you opinion." They attacked me and refused to accept that it was censorship and opinion. I defended my position and then figured why? I would never make them see my point and the more I read the other posts the more I didn't care about posting there or reading there. Its a game thats not even released where everyone considers the developers GODS and would suck their dick to get it released 1 week earlyer. Also theres not much to talk about with a game thats not even out. Thats some people bag but its not mine. Any way I'm glad to be in the company of more open minded and intellegent people who belive that they should be their own police force. The people on darrens forum think that if you allowed swearing and flame wars, that it would result in anarchy. We are living proof that they are wrong. IP: Logged |
JV44Siggi
Pilot
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posted 01-10- 02:45 PM
a[This message has been edited by JV44Siggi (edited 01-11-2000).] IP: Logged |
pops
Pilot
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posted 01-10- 03:56 PM
Spanky said: "I love to argue, its practicaly a pastime of mine."
Spanky don't quit your day job.
Neither of you gave steller performances.
But I do wish that we could get along as gamers seeking a common ground and not take up sides. We have not been lilly white either. Both Zur and Jaguar were given a bit of a hard way. Zur has since enjoyed himself and we enjoy him. Jaguar hasn't been back, but I hope that he will. A lot has to do with the way one chooses to enter anyones forum. Well, I'm ready........
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Archy
Pilot
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posted 01-10- 04:34 PM
Is it coincidence that has Siggi and Spanky stirring up "stew" on the B17-2 board, as they have so often in SDOE's past? I think not.. Spanky admits to enjoy a good argue... And I beleive Siggi is the same way. They are stirrers, and we once we post, are just part of the "stew". Everyone needs a good stir now and again, but there comes a point, when the the "stew" is done, and no more stirring is needed. So what, he is banned from b17's board, he'll find some other pot to "relieve himself" in, its in his nature. We have our zealots, as does B17-2. So what! Both are just games! One isn't even out yet. So what is the point to all this "stew". And yet, I spent time on posting this, damn I feel like such a potato-head.IP: Logged |
Private Roger
Pilot
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posted 01-10- 04:38 PM
I always have admired people who write well. Who can clickity-clack on a keyboard much like the one I'm struggling with and when they are finished have a well formed easy to understand message. I work at it quite a bit, but I rarely am happy with the final product. Guess I just don't have the knack. All that is a preamble to this...I got really mad at my boss at work today. We are in the middle of a big project, and she has been driving me crazy with unrealistic demands. I finally snapped today after she dumped yet another item on the huge list before me. I marched to her office (thankfully it's a long trip) with the intent of cussing her out! I mean cussing! I was spitting nails and the words were already forming in my head. Before I got there I setled down a bit, and decided to try to say the same thing without using profanity. My reasons....I think I come accross more intelligent and not so crazed if I do that. I have a better chance of getting her to hear my message, and not just focus on the profanity, I get to keep my job. See, I realise that I could have used the profanity, but it would have had risks. I chose the same message and just decided to censor myself a little. The results...she appologized and put another person on to help me accomplish the project. I'm happy, she seemed o.k., and I didn't look like a mad man....for one more day anyway. I'm not a wordsmith, so my point may be lost in the story. I hope it made some sense and it might explain the other side a little.
PR=FC=
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goth
Pilot
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posted 01-10- 05:12 PM
Private Roger:
A very well made point, on the use of calm language to communicate emotional issues. You have wtten a parable we should all remember when we start a flaming reply.However, I also have to commend this board, as Siggi pointed out we have a great community here. We've learned a lot about how to deal with each other, flames, and others who are outside our group, or new to the group. This is my favorite place on the WWW. Siggi, sorry to hear that the other forum isn't ready for the openess of this forum, but then we're open minds as well as open plane! IP: Logged |
Werner Molders
Pilot
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posted 01-10- 07:51 PM
Well now, bobalou, if you're so sure of your stance on this 'issue' (tongue planted firmly in cheek), by what other names would we recognize you, seeing as you've been around for so long? Surely you do not believe that by hiding behind a veil of anonymity you are adding any weight to your 'arguments'.Werner ------------------
Do you support SDOE online? Email Werner to be listed in SDOE's online phonebook today! IP: Logged |
bobalou
Pilot
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posted 01-10- 11:08 PM
Werner - do be careful with that tongue in cheek because you are apt to bite it! Ever hear of the forum referred to as the blue board, How about Pete Hawks board or the one which followed it after it shut down, but then again you do know about this one. Still got your tongue? the name stayed the same and my interests stayed the same. Single player WWI and WW II prop sims, not multiplayer not plane design, and I do enjoy SDOE'S scramble missions.By the way, where were you when Zurawski, Siggi and I were having discussions on the type of missions SDOE was going to have or the type of damage modeling to expect. Still got your tongue, BOY! keep on reading the next few posts and get a little more knowledge. IP: Logged |
bobalou
Pilot
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posted 01-10- 11:16 PM
Mirthain:I'm a little confused you ask "please try to be civil and point out the errors" You must consider Siggi civil when he states "edited out" or how about the part where he states "edited out" or how about "edited out" . What you are telling me is that Siggi's statements are civil and leads to the betterment of this community and that mine were off the deep end. I am sorry, but I don't follow that logic. I also fail to see the logic of thanking Siggi for the warning of the B-17II forum and not actually going
to that BB to get all the facts. If all you want in life is to be a follower then you made the right decision. As far as "hate filled messages" goes, same argument applies between Siggis' choice of
verbiage and mine.
[This message has been edited by bobalou (edited 01-11-2000).] IP: Logged |
bobalou
Pilot
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posted 01-10- 11:24 PM
Spanky - I seem to remember some members statements to the effect that if you wanted to call that censorship fine so its censorship. It appears that you and Siggis main beef is that that forum listened to your arguments and then refused to change their policy concerning obscenities and
flames. In other words, that boards' members decided that they saw no reason to change so that you and Siggi could do whatever. They did listen but decided against your personal wishes.If you think that everyone out in the world today is going to let you run helter-skelter as you please well, that ain't gonna happen. "Its a game that's not even released where everyone considers the developers GODS and would suck their dick to get it released 1 week earlier." Well buddy, if you had followed SDOES forums from the time of the blue board and petes
board you would be amazed at the similarities in postings between them and B-17 II. Oh, and
the postings on the blue board probably had more colour to them than you are capable of
handing. Damn, I'm doing Siggis' trick of politely insulting you. In regards to your statement of anarchy being a result of swearing and flame wars - reread the post as it was referring to allowing the individual to do whatever they wanted to do without regard to other individuals.
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bobalou
Pilot
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posted 01-10- 11:32 PM
Goth - I wouldn't sell any bulletin board short based the opinion of one individual. Especially one who likes to stir the pot and use comments that belittle others.Sv - well said. Private Roger - you are no slouch in your writing. I am sure that you would have spent less time creating similar replies than I have, after all you are a pilot and I just a cadet. IP: Logged |
bobalou
Pilot
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posted 01-10- 11:39 PM
Michael - sorry to have missed the post, the dispute on the other board WAS left at the other
board.Siggi chose to bring it to this board and he chose to bring it here in such a manner to belittle the members of that board AND I chose to bring him to task for it in as blunt of a manner as possible. I frequented the SDOE forums to keep track of FM updates of a fun simulation and not to see those two outrageous posts. Siggi has a very good handle on written communications, but when I see someone (especially with his capabilities) abuse that gift with misinformation, disinformation and derogatory comments I get a little irate (OK this time I got a lot irate). IP: Logged |
bobalou
Pilot
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posted 01-10- 11:47 PM
[This message has been edited by bobalou (edited 01-11-2000).] [This message has been edited by bobalou (edited 01-11-2000).] IP: Logged |
Werner Molders
Pilot
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posted 01-11- 12:00 AM
For someone who is such a 'veteran' you sure haven't spoken up much lately. Come to think of it, your alias does ring a few bells, albeit very small ones. Note that I am not the only one here who mistook you for a newcomer. Note also that, even though this board has been around for long enough to accumulate thousands of posts, you just signed on. Granted, you have probably been lurking, but frankly I don't care. Yes, I was a part of those other boards, but I'm not about to engage in a petty who-was-here-first with you. Oh, and I didn't pay much attention to those threads you mentionned because my interests at the time lied elsewhere. Satisfied yet?....Geesh. This sheer stupidity is more worthy of that massive flame war back at Pete's than the productive and cooperative atmosphere that has characterized this board to date. So, with that in mind, I will wish you good day, sir, and extricate myself from this spiteful 'discussion'. Werner Molders ------------------
Do you support SDOE online? Email Werner to be listed in SDOE's online phonebook today! IP: Logged |
Mirthain
Pilot
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posted 01-11- 12:18 AM
You know.. it's funny.. I have been here for quite awhile.... I think most can attest to that... but I have never heard of PH's board called the "Blue board". It was always "Pete's board". Perhaps it is a nomenclature that I missed..... I also don't remember your name. And there was a good amount of time that I posted 2-4 times a day. Could be my failing memory.Siggi and I have had our run-arounds as well. But you know, the tone of the post is what I am referring to here. Not the actual content. If Siggi feels that you are snakes... then I say, well Siggi is rather ticked off at them. Big bloody deal. I didn't make an opinion of you till I saw your post. I find this so funny that you are going through all this one person at a time and picking a fight with them all. Your posts are angry and emotional. They lack actual content and remind me of people that have had thier own values put under question. The more you post this way, the less likely I am to come and visit the other board. Do you understand why that is? Do you realize that you are basically just antagonizing a group of people that could be an asset to your board?
Perhaps not.
Mirthain=FC= IP: Logged |
Michael
Pilot
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posted 01-11- 12:40 AM
Well, Bobalou, I have to say I think it's fair comment to suggest the attitude of one moderator on that board leaves a lot to be desired. He employed some fairly disgusting and violent turns of phrase in taking Siggi to task, which I personally found hilarious in a way I somehow don't think he - the moderator- could appreciate. (I had quoted those statements here and afterward thought better of it.) And there are further examples in other threads of what some might see as over-the-top reactions to posts he takes exception to. (I've read pretty much the whole of that forum after recently viewing the videos there and consequently becoming admittedly a bit obsessed with B17 II) I should add that I am in no way discouraging anyone from visiting or posting at that site which is an excellent source of information as well as feedback from the developer. I expect I will probably be posting there myself in time. I should also state that I have no interest in the cause that Siggi was advocating - which I took to be that any restriction at all on what people can post is undesireable or would create a climate that would discourage open, untramelled debate and discussion. Personally, to cite an example, I see nothing wrong in asking people to refrain from undue vulgarity in posting on a bulletin board; I just can't see that as a substantive restraint on freedom of expression. But the reaction Siggi received for expressing, in his usual idiosyncratic manner, an apparently unpopular point of view, seems a bit nuts to me. Obviously, you have a different view. Which is my final word on this now "off topic" discussion (which you seem very intent in pursuing in this forum in spite of your comment to the contrary above.) IP: Logged |
bobalou
Pilot
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posted 01-11- 01:50 AM
dang mirthain, you wanted me to be civil and point out the errors. now you want to say I'm picking fights because I am responding to the posts. Goths, Sv, Private Roger and Pops had the best posts. Complimenting them is bad?For your historical info The "blue board" preceeded Petes Werner, sorry to see that you equate veteran status with the number of posts one makes. Mirthain: when you mention proofreading please reread yours above as my reply could have been much more blunt. [This message has been edited by bobalou (edited 01-11-2000).] IP: Logged |
Sv
Pilot
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posted 01-11- 07:33 AM
Wow bobalou,If you keep posting like that your bound to become a real "pilot" someday! The B-17 II forum has always seemed very "clean-cut" to me from the beginning - not unlike our nice home here. I always do feel it is polite to read a BB for a bit before posting, and then out of repect for that BB posts should be in that BB's idiom. The only problem with these clean-cut, polite, everyone is so sweet BB's is that people use this to their advantage and do very mean things. Once you have posted a long time and are respected it is all to easy to flame someone to death - just put a few 's after any post and it becomes polite and fair game regardless of content. It is still nothing short of a personal attack. I don't think it was valgarity - I am thinking they just couldn't possibly handle Siggi over there - I guess that is compliment for you, right Siggi? Long live the flame wars forum! Where real men can go and, uh, be assholes - but more importantly, hopefuly be understood in their (our) own context. -Sv IP: Logged |
JV44Siggi
Pilot
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posted 01-11- 04:25 PM
a[This message has been edited by JV44Siggi (edited 01-11-2000).] IP: Logged |
Spyder
Pilot
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posted 01-11- 06:13 PM
Come on guys, it really is a matter of respecting another bbs's house rules, same as this one.
This forum isn't exactly free of a few self important posters, like dormant volcanoes they sit there waiting to erupt.
Silence speaks volumes, if you don't like another persons replies, ignore them.
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bobalou
Pilot
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posted 01-11- 09:54 PM
Hi Sv, Liked your comment, I did have over 50 posts on Petes board and always enjoyed reading yours and Private rogers posts.I agree that it would be nice to ease one's way in but occasionally it doesn't happen. I usually see what is happening at the B-17 II forum first and then pop over here to see how the improved flight model package is doing (scramble missions sure are fun). Appears to have been bad timing on Siggi's and mine for the reading of posts between the forums. IP: Logged |
JV44Siggi
Pilot
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posted 01-11- 10:14 PM
Well, I've scrubbed as much of the poison as I am able to.
I'm not apologising for my beliefs, they stand, subject to modification.
What I apologise for is allowing myself to be sucked into a maelstrom of spite, and saying things that were, in the cold light of day, really viscious. It's like this slow gradual depersonalisation where one becomes unaware of just how horrible our thoughts sometimes become. They seem to lose their impact in this medium in a way they wouldn't if we were saying them face to face. Bloody shameful. It took a couple of mails from Goatman to slap me awake.
There is simply no excuse, only reasons. I really laid into Goatman on the B17-2 forum, half thinking I was fighting the good fight, half thinking it was funny. It wasn't. What is it that allows us to behave with such cruelty here? I'm sure nobody does it deliberately or even knowingly...it just builds up to the point where we are unaware of just what it is we are perpetrating upon each other.
These forums are devoted to games that are intended to give pleasure and joy. What do we end up doing! Slagging each other, trying to score points over ephemeral, abstract points that have absolutely nothing to do with the games themselves.
Goatman was big hearted enough to contact me with a generosity that really brought me to my senses. At least to a point I was last at a good few months ago. I owe him a big debt of gratitude, even if only for recalibrating my senses. But actually for a good deal more.
A sound geezer. IP: Logged |
Mirthain
Pilot
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posted 01-11- 10:30 PM
Well spoken Siggi.
Bobalou,
I only point out what I saw in your responses. I am not trying to flame or belittle your interpretations, only to temper them with an outside opinion. Perhaps proof reading the posts before submiting them would be prudent. Look at them like you were the subject and ask yourself if you would take offence.
I am not saying that giving cudo's to those that deserve them is wrong.. but that was the minority of what you posted. Not the majority. The main points of what you said were inflamatory and angry and that is what I took away... not the good points.
I am not going to keep this up, just wanted to point out what I saw, and how this affected my impression of you and the board you are representing. Even if you don't mean to be representing them, you are.
Mirthain=FC=IP: Logged |
bobalou
Pilot
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posted 01-11- 10:51 PM
Mirthain - your point is taken. My individual responces to each of the posts were based on how that post came across to me. Perhaps the lesson learned here is that when posting extra care should be taken by all parties to ensure that no confusion exists.IP: Logged |
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