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Could this work?????

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Author	Topic: Could this work?????
Snickers Pilot	posted 01-11- 06:01 PM The SDOE disk has a lot of extra space. In playing around, I burned a copy (but left the session open). Then I copied PP6 and 6.1, Nations2, WWI Pack, Ground Pack2, the patch and Patch .10 onto the open area. Oh yeah, SDOE Control 2000 also... I am thinking of making an HTML interface that would allow you to select what component to install. Now the hard part... Copyright. It is after all Activisions (well, the main part of it anyway). How do we get permission to do something like this? I can do it once (the one legal backup, there is nothing to say that I can't put other things on the backup disk ) But I _can't_ legally distribute it (even to people that want to use it as their backup - or can I?). Anybody know the legalities of this? Goth? IP: Logged
Razer Pilot	posted 01-11- 08:09 PM you could make a flash file that runs EXE's on the CD then you could setup a new autorun with a nice pop up when the CD is put int he drive. IP: Logged
goth Pilot	posted 01-11- 11:26 PM Now your talking!!! Let me do some investigation and I'll get back to you on this. IP: Logged
goth Pilot	posted 01-11- 11:27 PM Oh yeah- And I bet you could have even more space if you dropped the directx loader and the movies. IP: Logged
goth Pilot	posted 01-12- 12:02 AM Hmmm- at first blush it looks pretty grim to try it without express permission. I had hoped for finding a loophole into "Public Domain." First, the usual disclaimers: I am a Texas Lawyer; I do not practice Intellectual Property law, although I have studied it. I suggest you consult an attorney in your own state/country before you take any action on the following statement. You are right. You cannot distribute the new CD. Not only do you lack a copyright or permission from Activision or Parsoft, but also you lack the permission of those individuals who created the additional programs. You are free to place all of them together in a compilation CD for your own archival or repair purposes, so long as you destroy the copy when your right to the original work expires. _________ Now, how to work around this. We can simply ask Activision (and the other creators) if we may have their permission to distribute copies of this work. They can refuse, modify, or grant such permission. The curious thing is though, what exactly do we need from the original cd now? Just the structure of the directory, or parts of the engine? Perhaps the easier course is to look at what it takes to make a SDOE(Community Additions) Installer CD that adds all of these parts. It would be easy to get permission from the creators of the add-on's to distribute such a compellation. That way, Activision need not grant permission to distribute, as the actual SDOE program is not distributed. I say the things to do are 1- ask Activision and Parsoft for their blessing to basically release SDOEII. Being ready to ask that it either be released to the public domain (What a publicity move for Activision), or to sell a grant of permission. 2- If they refuse, seek permission for the add-ons CDv1 from its individual creators (which we'd need anyway). IP: Logged
WM General	posted 01-12- 12:27 AM Is there anyone who is active in both the SDOE and Panzer Elite communities? I'm not, but I've read a little about the impetus behind PE:Gold Edition, and while it was Teut Wiedemann (and I think he's the equiv to MH) as the driving force, perhaps they've gained some wisdom in their endeavours which might save us from having to entirely reinvent the wheel. Just a thought anyways, I would volunteer but I'm already at project-saturation point. Thanks for the investigations goth and the idea snickers. Werner ------------------ Werner Molders Abbeville Field: Dedicated to the SDOE Experience. [This message has been edited by WM (edited 01-12-2002).] IP: Logged
BULLET187 Cadet	posted 01-12- 02:16 AM Unless my memory fails me a few back-up discs have already been distributed. Haven't they? But, I don't think there was any of the original game material on them. I'm assuming that all of us already have the original disc or know where to get it. So I would think that a back-up disc of only the user mods would be needed, and the safest way to go. I don't really remember this community having a warm, caring relationship with Activision/Parsoft in the past. Contacting them about something like this may be opening up Pandora's Box. I could just be over reacting. BULLET P.S. I am REEEAALLLLYY looking forward to an update CD. IP: Logged
Rendsburger Pilot	posted 01-12- 08:00 AM I�m always a friend of add-on CDs and i guess this is the way whe should go. The new Planes (basepacks) will released in parfiles and i want to put all terrains in parfiles too.The only thing whe need then is a small installer which put the parfiles into the media folder,thats all. Rendsburger IP: Logged
GC34/Sailor Pilot	posted 01-12- 10:34 AM I've been distributing an Add-On CD for about 6 month, I got permission from all shareware & special add-on programmers that are included. Concerning the publicly released material, I posted on the forum at the time to ask everyone if their work could or could not be included. Since then, I've tried to keep the CD updated with all the new releases. It already includes an html interface in french and english that explains how to install all the parts and a tutorial about the file structure in SDOE. I don't have an installer since I don't know how to make one and there are so many thing in the CD that it would be a bit tricky. 6 month ago I tried to get that CD plus the original game distributed by a french company that sells games at budget prices (they would have had to negociate the royalties with all the designers because a commercial CD is very different from a free-not for profit one) but with no success. I guess SDOE is too specialized a game, not for a wide public that you can sell at the local supermarket for 5 dollars in a plastic blister. On the distribution problem, you'll also find many problems : basically, I can produce CDs for about 2 to 3 dollars apiece, including shipping anywhere in the world. Now the problem is that you can't get that small cross-border payment. The money transfer costs are much higher than the cost of the CD. Even within Euro-zone. And you have an SDOE community that's spread everywhere across the world : I sent CDs in France, Belgium, Germany, UK, US (incl 1 to Hawa�), Canada and Australia but you cannot use a local correspondent in each country since it needs an update nearly every week so after 1 month you are sure that not 2 CDs in 2 countries will be the same. This is the message I posted at the time, the content of the CD has always been updated since then, although I'm not sure I have the latest Jeeves Loadouts included : http://www.fightersquadron.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/005186.html Just my 2 cents Sailor [This message has been edited by GC34/Sailor (edited 01-12-2002).] IP: Logged
Maury Markowitz Pilot	posted 01-12- 12:41 PM quote: Originally posted by goth: The curious thing is though, what exactly do we need from the original cd now? As I understand it the breakdown is essentially that Activision owns the artwork and related items - movies, background sound (the radio sounds before the game starts), logos, various UI screens (like the loader and main screen), etc. ParSoft owns the rest, which is primarily the code, the name of the game, and all OpenPlane related items. So basically if we were to replace every one of the screens and related items, we would be free of the Activision side of things. At that point the whole deal becomes considerably easier. quote: 2- If they refuse, seek permission for the add-ons CDv1 from its individual creators (which we'd need anyway). I would prefer a blanket statement or licence here. Something like the "OpenPlane Public License". This would keep the copyright with the current maintainer (as opposed to the original author) and release the rest of the work to the public. That means the current maintainer can exclude changes they think are bad, but otherwise people can do whatever they want with it. The only difference between this and other similar licenses is that it includes a system for assigning the project off to another person. Alternately a BSD license would work well. Maury IP: Logged
Vmartini Pilot	posted 01-12- 04:28 PM quote: . I guess SDOE is too specialized a game, not for a wide public that you can sell at the local supermarket for 5 dollars in a plastic blister. my local Morrisons sells it for �7.99. I bought it from a music shop at a factory outlet center. sorry, just felt disagreeative (; IP: Logged
GC34/Sailor Pilot	posted 01-12- 04:46 PM Well, Vmartini, I'm very pleased to know that. It's just that I had the impression that discounters were more eager to sell the usual 'Shoot them Up' type of game than the hard core sim one like SDOE. Anyway I'm pleased that it's still available at some places 3 years after initial release. Sailor IP: Logged
goth Pilot	posted 01-12- 07:55 PM As for releasing a "new" version of SDOE, minus its art, etc. You would need for the new product to be so substantially different that no reasonable person would think the two were releated to avoid a copyright issue. I don't think it will be possible. Think of the fights between MSWord and other word processors in the late 80's. An identical interface, directory structure, or identical code string, would be an infringment. However, the release of a CD like Sailor's, with the permission's granted is very viable. The cost issue can partially be fixed by a broad distribution method, and pre-delivery group payments. If we were to distribute the image to the cd to those with broadband and burners, they could be the nodes for local distribution efforts without crossing as many economic borders. We only need a way then to help fund the cost of the burn to the distributors. We could let those interested in a copy send SASE with a donation, or as a group dictate a cost for obtaining a copy on a pre-agreed "cost only" basis. Whichever is done, we need to be sure there is no "profit" from the cd, or we could run into more tax or legality issues. I doubt any commercial distributor will want to do this for us. We are too small a group, there are no royalties to be earned, or large profis to be made, and we are too spread out. IP: Logged
WM General	posted 01-12- 08:18 PM When Spoonman released his update CD a long time ago, he charged a small fee to cover the cost of the burning. Perhaps if each person who acted as a node took 'orders' for a defined period of time, then tallied the costs, divided by number of orders received at that node and then published the figures (to maintain transparency of the operation) we could avoid any question of profit-taking. Would that work, or would it be more work than its worth? I don't think it would be too bad, just find out how much CDRs cost near you, find out how many units you will need to buy and add it up. ------------------ Werner Molders Abbeville Field: Dedicated to the SDOE Experience. IP: Logged
Commando Pilot	posted 01-13- 08:00 AM Panzer Elite was originally published by Pysgnosis,its was written by Wings (Teut) they went bust and the rights to the game somehow got in the hands of Sony. The Pysgnosis bust happened as the game was getting into its stride but Sony chose not to make any more,Wings did not have any publishing rights so they could not reprint, shops sold out and copies went for $80+ on Ebay. Wings continued to support PE via patches and with its semi open structure many mods were made by users, the Lenort Brothers actually made changes to the source code which went into the patches. Teut spent a lot of time speaking to Sony (who had no interest in the game) and finally in mid/late 2001 was able to buy Wings rights back. Wings have then been able to produce a 2 CD reissue with the patched game and all the user mods, if you have the original game you can download the latest patch and all these mods but at $19 its a good backup anyway. Anyone want to buy the rights to FS from Activision, we don't have to go that far but we do need permission to sell cd's with the original game on. IP: Logged
goth Pilot	posted 01-13- 11:04 AM FYI from the Activision site: ----- Fighter Squadron: The Screamin' Demons Over Europe� For stand-alone game: Activision is a registered trademark of Activision, Inc. Fighter Squadron: The Screamin' Demons Over Europe is a trademark of Parsoft Interactive. � 1997 Parsoft Interactive. All rights reserved. All other trademarks and tradenames are properties of their respective owners. If game is included with other Activision games: Fighter Squadron: The Screamin' Demons Over Europe is a trademark of Parsoft Interactive. � 1997 Parsoft Interactive. ---- Sounds like Parsoft retained all the rights to me, and that Activision only got to distribute for a portion of the profits. It's no wonder why Activision didn't support it much, when they didn't have much incentive from Parsoft (but that's an old dead horse too decayed to be worth beating on anymore). I'm willing to write Parsoft and Activision regarding our desire to see the game either in the public domain (fat chance), or for a right to redistribute the original material on an update CD (good luck). IP: Logged
GC34/Sailor Pilot	posted 01-13- 12:32 PM goth, Even the cost of getting back the licence or the distribution rights would be interesting. I have no idea of the value of what is own by Activision and what is own by Parsoft. BTW, does anyone know how many copies where sold in the first place ? Concerning the no-profit distribution possibility, I guess anything larger than the very limited CD done by Spoonman and then myself might have to be undertaken under a "fundation" type of structure set up in every (active) country. Concerning updates and coherence everywhere, we could set up a central D/L site updated by some of us and from where everyone would D/L the updated version to burn every time a CD is to be made. This would require a rather large hosting space as my CD currently contains 580 Mo of data. Also : how many copies do we think we could distribute ? Last question : I guess part of this was solved by Wings With Wires as they are using the Openplane technology, so could we think of a WW2 add-on for Wings With Wires that would in effect be a SDOE version 2 ? Sailor IP: Logged
Maury Markowitz Pilot	posted 01-13- 12:41 PM quote: Originally posted by goth: Sounds like Parsoft retained all the rights to me, and that Activision only got to distribute for a portion of the profits. Exactly. So if we do remove the Activision artwork (some of which has already been replaced in some PP's and such) then we're free of them. Then it's solely Parsoft who has any claim. And Parsoft doesn't really exist as a going concern any more. Maury IP: Logged
Razer Pilot	posted 01-13- 12:55 PM double post [This message has been edited by Razer (edited 01-13-2002).] IP: Logged
Razer Pilot	posted 01-13- 12:56 PM I thought this might go with this discussion. I started a "Screaming Demons of the Pacific" Pack some months ago with new in game GUIs with a blue theme and some new background sounds while in the GUIs to give a pacific feel but It stopped shortly after the GUI changes when I found that all that stuff was hardcoded and could NOT be changed. I've asked for this and a few other things to update the game from VDU but some of the things are pretty major code changes. Not sure when or if we will see some of them. This is a good idea but you start talking about getting rights to the game and your talking about spending some good money on it. No one gives things away for free since all the stuff we've done could really make a hugh game! But you have to remember that FS is only limited by its terrain since it's the hardest thing to change. ------------------ Tony "Razer" Martin Brought to you by the Campaign for a better Pacific. IP: Logged
Maury Markowitz Pilot	posted 01-13- 03:02 PM quote: Originally posted by Razer: I thought this might go with this discussion. I started a "Screaming Demons of the Pacific" Pack some months ago with new in game GUIs with a blue theme and some new background sounds while in the GUIs to give a pacific feel but It stopped shortly after the GUI changes when I found that all that stuff was hardcoded and could NOT be changed. Did you make a list by any chance? There's any number of little UI changes that could be made with ease, and it might be worthwhile to collect them. For instance, I'd like the font to change (does everyone else find it to be largely unreadable too?), and I'd like the various setup screens to be able to run at higher res. Maury IP: Logged
WM General	posted 01-13- 04:12 PM Fwiw, I asked Bryan for the GUI to be unlocked a while back and he said it shouldn't be a big deal, look for it in the next patch (which would have been .10). I'm sure Razer that this wasn't what constituted the major code changes, I just thought I'd mention it seems there has been some interest in GUI mods. Werner ------------------ Werner Molders Abbeville Field: Dedicated to the SDOE Experience. IP: Logged
goth Pilot	posted 01-13- 07:48 PM Actually, my bet is that when Parsoft became its new entity, it sold any rights to SDOE to the new entity. I doubt seriously that the copyright was abandoned. After all, they are still actively protecting the Open Plane Source code. IP: Logged
Maury Markowitz Pilot	posted 01-14- 10:50 AM quote: Originally posted by goth: Actually, my bet is that when Parsoft became its new entity, it sold any rights to SDOE to the new entity. The opposite actually, Interia is a licensee of the code from Parsoft. Parsoft still exists, it's just not a going concern. So, what is the whole idea in this case? If someone "walks away" from the code I assume the copyright is still in force until it reverts to public domain? Maury IP: Logged
goth Pilot	posted 01-14- 11:21 AM Copyrights outlive for the life of the creator by 70 years. They do not enter public domain unless placed there by the copyright holder, or if the copyright is not renewed at the expiration of the original copyright. Just because Parsoft isn't ongoing now, doesn't mean they can't come back to enforce their copyright. http://www.loc.gov/copyright/circs/circ1.html#wci [This message has been edited by goth (edited 01-14-2002).] IP: Logged
Sv JAG	posted 01-14- 01:09 PM Remember that the Wings with Wires patches are "unofficial" patches that Inertia was nice enough to let us post in a very informal manner with no strict agreement. This is done in trust and in the hope that it would further the future of OpenPlane. As for bringing life back to SDOE (like SDOE 2) the best idea I think would be to: 1. Create a new SDOE patch that fixed the on-line problems and had a better installer. 2. Create all new media (planes, terrains, objects, missions, etc.) and put this in a CD and for download. Make this the standard for at least 6 months... try for a year. People still need to original game... this is in essence an add-on pack. One could even charge for the media CD as if it were an add-on pack... well, it is! The only trick is that the media pack requires the "unofficial" SDOE patch download... this would make such a project not a very good idea for revenue - but not at all a bad idea if you want to put some life back in SDOE. (giving away the CD's and posting downloads) It is best that people can't make a nice official looking SDOE 2... because this might end up competing against (and being confused with) future OpenPlane sims. It would be pretty annoying to have to compete with your own product! As part of Wings with Wire's work to produce Birds of Prey, there will be a new version of OpenPlane. If Birds of Prey does as well as we think, then there really should be a future for WW2 OpenPlane beyond SDOE. Maybe Inertia will put together a new sim... or even some other developer or publisher. Or maybe other interesting concepts... ------------------ -Sv Wings with Wires IP: Logged
Jerry+ Pilot	posted 01-14- 01:24 PM IMO any CD add-on which requires the original CD will not significantly increase the number of flyers. The original SDOE got a bad rap and few new people will want to fool with it. There can't be too many more new SDOE disks out there to buy. Most of the newbies we seem to be getting are because of the WWI play. Birds of Prey will take all those people. However, a new add-on CD with a good installer would sure make life easier for the rest of us and the few newbies that we still get. I agree with Sv that our best hope is a highly successful Birds of Prey and then a WWII follow-up to it. My 2 cents. IP: Logged
Snickers Pilot	posted 01-14- 01:40 PM I didnt have money making in mind, just an infusion of life. Perhaps I should look ad doing this with the BP. (Which will, by the way have an installer, AND the ability to check the web to see if any of the PAR files have been updated. If so, you download that PAR file only.) So if I read things correctly Sv, it is acceptable to include the patch in this as well? If so, we can set it up to look for new versions of the patch as well (not that they come out that often....) IP: Logged
Sv JAG	posted 01-14- 02:21 PM That's fine snick. Hey, don't knock money making ideas... that's how we get games in the first place Remember that user-add ons are not the only reason to have an open system like OpenPlane... one of the other main reasons is also to allow other developers to produce commercial add-ons. If SDOE did as well as it could have - then we would have seen packs and tools for sale - this would overall add allot more to the game. And with the power of OpenPlane it really gives allot more control and access to developers than, say, MSCFS. But as we all know, it is also a larger effort to produce a SDOE aircraft. ------------------ -Sv Wings with Wires IP: Logged
GC34/Sailor Pilot	posted 01-14- 04:08 PM This sounds great Sv, we all buy a copy of Birds of Prey and with the new game we also get an upgrade for WW2 SDOE I really hope this time Openplane will meet expectations commercially as well as technically. Sailor IP: Logged
Maury Markowitz Pilot	posted 01-14- 04:10 PM quote: Originally posted by Jerry+: IMO any CD add-on which requires the original CD will not significantly increase the number of flyers. I agree. We definitely need a new CD, fresh from the mint. quote: The original SDOE got a bad rap and few new people will want to fool with it. I don't know, do you think there's any bad-blood left after all this time? Maury IP: Logged
GC34/Sailor Pilot	posted 01-14- 04:51 PM Just a thought a little bit off-topic, but would there be a chance to use some kind of peer to peer system like the music files sharing systems to allow everyone to easily update their versions to the latest release ? A bit like the way you send a new multiplayer mission to all pilots when starting a new on-line game ? Sailor IP: Logged
goth Pilot	posted 01-15- 11:53 AM Interesting thought, a sort of "Planester". Of course, nobody would let their Activision CD be open, just their Add-on folders. It doesn't decrease download times, but it increases the number of nodes a lot. IP: Logged
Snickers Pilot	posted 01-15- 02:02 PM Actually Sv, thats (one of) my problem. I _don't_ think of money making... (Not that its wrong, I just dont think of it....) IP: Logged
weasel Pilot	posted 01-19- 09:52 AM I love this thread ... Is anyone talking to Inertia or Parasoft to see if we can possibly purchase the source code? weasel IP: Logged

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