posted 11-22- 04:29 PM               

So I have been looking over at the Birds of Prey game that's being developed based on the Open Plane engine like SDOE. I think even some people that developed stuff for SDOE are working on BOP like Sv and others if I'm correct.

So here is my idea. If BOP can be developed based on this game, then why can't a SDOE part II be developed like WWW is developing BOP. I imagine it couldn't be called SDOE II because inertia has those rights, but you probably get what I mean. There are so many talented people here that there is no doubt in my mind that the best flight Sim ever could be created by you guys, but many issues come into play such as marketing, licensing, distribution etc. I only wish someone who originally helped developed this game would stop by and see what you all have done, because it is really outstanding, The creators of SDOE would have never dreamed of what you guys have created.

Anyway, I have just been thinking this the last few days, figure I would post it on here in a sort of thinking out loud session.

I guess I just don't want to see this great community die, just to much work and care has been put into SDOE for it to just go away one day.

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posted 11-22- 04:46 PM               

Seems like the biggest problem from SDOE now is the on-line interface. If this was easier and more bug free... AND there was a well managed plane pack system that evolved in a more controlled and (gasp) boring manner... then we would have the need spark to get the ONLY thing SDOE is missing now... PILOTS!

Also the creators of OpenPlane had a great vision and a true love of flight simulation... and they are really impressed beyond words with the work that goes on here.

Also I can tell you that they are very loyal to OpenPlane and the community here. They are of course very busy on other projects and ideas now... but the fact that we have a patch team and the go ahead to release patches to the community is proof of Inertia's continuing commitment to OpenPlane.

They love OpenPlane as much... even more than us - it is their child! In fact the main inspiration for BOP was OpenPlane... none of us involved wanted to see such an amazing and revolutionary game engine fade away because of unlucky circumstances. It is really our hope at Wings with Wires to not only produce a great new WWI flight sim... but also open the door for future OpenPlane based sims in other genres.

But first, as you said at the start Blacksheep, the OpenPlane engine needs to be brought up to today's standard set by new sims like IL-2. And this is happening right now

posted 11-22- 06:14 PM               

I thought that the Crew had stopped working on the re-organization of SDOE becasue I hadn't heard anything in a while, I do hope that it gets finished one day.

P.S. Yes the OP WWI side has great success online, I have flown many times online with the great group of guys in OP WWI, and stay tuned, Myself, Sparks, and many others are working on a 1916 mission pack that will contain over 20 missions, for both online and off line play

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posted 11-22- 06:55 PM               

As long as theres interest in OP-WWI, I'll be here fueling it.

P.S. You might consider OP-WWI as a totaly different sim! I know I do... If we boxed it up, stuck it on the shelves and listed all the wonderful features, Im sure people would buy it. Mind you we probably couldnt sell it for anything more than $30.00...

posted 11-22- 08:52 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by ArgonV:
[B]Seems this is the only thing keeping SDOE alive right now... Not much has ben done on the WW2 front. If there could be some organization and combined efforts on this front, I still see a long life for SDOE in the future.]

---

I very, very strongly disagree. On all counts.

WWI is great, but it is certainly not the only thing keeping SDOE alive, including online (eg: Karaya's work w/Bavaria Terrain missions, flown on a regular basis). How about mace, or Rendsburger, or Gustavo, or Harman? All have had major WWII releases in recent weeks. I guess those didn't leave much of an impression on you.

There is organization and combined efforts on that front - it's called DIME and the crew. People wonder why things have slowed down, did you read this? Noticed DJH around lately? Didn't think so. Others have had their time pounded on because of various real-life things, some 9/11 related others not. As a result you've got guys like Jeeves making up the difference in a big way. A few extra hands would go a long way to finish up the work that's left.

With all due respect Argon, while your remarks may have been made off the cuff I think they're rather callous towards those of us who don't happen to share your enthusiasm for WWI planes, and continue to work on the WWII side of the game.

The appropriate smilie to convey the mood here would be somewhere between and . Something like :moderately annoyed:.

WM

posted 11-22- 10:06 PM               

For myself, each day I put in more time on the USA base pack and as you read this I am emailing the USA sm files to Snickers.

posted 11-23- 01:32 AM               

Remember the Crew? Well most of that is dead too! Ive talked to Nat (One of the members) and he is quite annoyed that it died because there was lack of leadership and people willing to do anything. I would be annoyed too if I were trying to combine OP-WWI efforts and got stuck doing everything for myself.

Now I didnt say on-line with WW2 was dead... But then again I didnt say off-line was either. Ive seen some of you guys online, and youre still basicly using PP 6.1 with a very non integrated addons! If The Crew or the DIME projects would get some fire under their asses, complete whats there and combine it all together (Missions, terrains, campaigns, all using the new stuff instead of the new cool stuff being released and no one taking advantage of it) then we would have one arse kicking WW2 Plane Pack!

Mace, Rendsburger, Harman and Gustavo have made some great add-ons! But then again, the on-line standard becomes even more out dated...

I would start doing it myself, infact Ive released some pretty cool WW2 addons in the past... But now everything is just totally inorganized and half-done it would take me forever with out some help. Thats why I jumped on over to OP-WWI. The first OP-WWI Plane Pack was great! But then Sv, Pang, and Ernst all had Wings with Wires to take care of and had no more time... By that time there were so many cool new things, but none were integrated! There's where I stepped in. There wasnt mass amounts of aircraft that needed to be worked on. Just a small number, that were mostly completed anyways. And from there we added more! And then people like wakeup tailgunner, Sparks, RVW, jgro, Hentzau, Aladar, WWDubya, FlyXwire and yes even Harman_5 decided to dive on in with me! We all worked together as a team and got what we had and turned it into something playable and fun.

posted 11-23- 05:04 AM               

WW1 attracted me for that reason. No-one was complaining about what wasn't working, and people were actively interested in fixing some of the issues.

Mostly SV and the WWW people ....

When they left, OPWW1 could easily have died out. But Argon stepped in, and single handedly took responsibility for the project. He didn't stand alone for long though People saw that there was a viable project, and that it had direction and control, and they wanted to be part of it. I know I did. Sparks, Blacksheep, RVW, and all the rest did too, and now we have people building planes, terrain, ground units and flying online regularly.

The Crew were trying to achieve the same for WW2, but the level of support was matched by the level of uncertainty over what should be done and the two cancelled each other out.

The events of 9/11 were horrific .... but they didn't slow the release of the Halb DII, Albatross DI, SPAD VII ...etc. etc. It may have had an effect on people, but it isn't the whole story. Pressures of life take their toll too....did that to me. But it only stops you if the pressures of the SDOE project mean it isnt FUN! The Crew were looking at a lot of hard work, and very little thanks, and that alone was enough to discourage people. From Condors post, the Crew's base pack idea still exists, just have to wonder how many poeple are supporting it, and what the 'Online Standard' will be. At least in OPWW1 we had the mistakes of the Planepacks that had gone before to learn from.....

Still.... the future of SDOE is WWW. Sure BOP will be a WW1 sim .... but it will be driven by a souped up heavily improved OpenPlane setup, and that alone is enough to give me hope for our future. And if the WW2 crowd think that leaves them dead in he water .....think again.

SDOE was a WW" sim.... and we build WW1 planes. BOP is a WW1 sim.... but there is nothing to stop you building a WW2 add-on pack for it

posted 11-23- 05:05 AM               

There is still no organization, no one working on a next plane pack as far as I know.

WW1 is the only part I see any work on but the latest patches (do you ww1 guys use them?) have totally ruined the performance of the game, with any renderer I get horrible performance and nastly bugs and stuff. Totally unplayable.

posted 11-23- 05:21 AM               

Take last weekend online for example. At one stage we had between 10 and 14 people online, at the same time, and we all flew our hearts out for hours on end. Well I did anyway

Every weekend that passes there are more and more playing online from about 21:30GMT onwards on both Friday and Saturday nights. I'm sure Sunday nights on Cal 12 are going right off too even though because of the time zone that I live in prevents me from flying on Sundays!

Those of us that are flying at this same time start are using the following setup:
FS cd, patch 1.5, nations2,pp6.0 & 6.1, patch 1.5.2.9 and Bavaria terrain. If anybody needs help in getting 'up to speed' with the setup described above I would gladly like to help out if I can. Those who are and have Roger Wilco setup also can meet me in the Cal 12 lobby at 21:30GMT and we can try and sort out any probs.

With the release of patch 1.5.2.10 I am sure beyond a shadow of a doubt, that on and offline play is going to go ballistic and I for one will be putting it through it's paces in earnest this coming weekend.

I think I speak for most who regularly fly sdoe ww2 online at the above time that the new Patch 1.5.2.10 replaces 2.9 for this weekend's games. We really need to put it through it's paces and give the Patch Team as much feedback as possible!

Of course the main reason IMO that we are still able to have so much fun with sdoe after 3 years is because of the continued efforts of the tremendously talented and unselfish people out there like the modellers, the Patch Team, the DIME project members, the CREW, mission makers and guys like Jeeves & Rendsburger who have also put so much into this great game already to make it what it is. Without you guys this game well and truly would've taken a nose dive long before now.

As long as I own a pc SDOE will never die for me!

posted 11-23- 07:27 AM               

My schedule:
1.Finishing Tobruk Terrain
2.Rhineland Terrain Modification (more industrie etc)
3.Releasing Smolensk, Bavaria, Tobruk and the SDOE Terrain mods as Par files
4. Dover Modification, incl. new harbours, intergrating Mace floatplane base and waterlanding capability to the terrain.
5. If someone wishes it i can put a new Planepack together and uploading it anywhere.

Rendsburger

posted 11-23- 08:16 AM               

With the WWI aircraft, you get to see more action with the gunners of crewed aircraft, and the planes are slow enough that the dogfights are real knife fights, and you get to see more, Dirk being a shining example. But while the volume of WWI releases (and more are on the way) is pretty staggering, you have the final say with "it ain't dead 'til I say it's dead!" You go, man!

------------------
V/R,

posted 11-23- 09:00 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ArgonV:
Werner, most of the DIME project is dead... Jeeves, Snickers and Condor seem to be the only ones working on anything. Why do you think Snickers posted that? Because it was dead...

---

Key word there: Was

quote:

---

Originally posted by ArgonV:
Remember the Crew? Well most of that is dead too! Ive talked to Nat (One of the members) and he is quite annoyed that it died because there was lack of leadership and people willing to do anything. I would be annoyed too if I were trying to combine OP-WWI efforts and got stuck doing everything for myself.

---

Have you talked to him lately? I don't think so my good Texan friend. If you have, he would have told you that I, as stubborn as I am, have finally downloaded OPS and have started doing the work. Condor is pretty much finished with the US module, I am about 98% finished with the British module and will soon start the Japanese and French....and Werner will be on the German side of things very soon. Nat is no longer by himself....because there are still those of us dedicated to this sim and not to the newest, brightest thing on the horizon. WWI is alive and well thanks to you and many others-- and I am glad for that. But don't count WWII out yet

quote:

---

Originally posted by ArgonV:
If The Crew or the DIME projects would get some fire under their asses, complete whats there and combine it all together (Missions, terrains, campaigns, all using the new stuff instead of the new cool stuff being released and no one taking advantage of it) then we would have one arse kicking WW2 Plane Pack!

---

Well-- terrains are being worked on by others more talented than me....but then again- I just started using OPS three days ago....and considering that I went and edited almost all that needed to be done with the British planes, I would say that I am suffering from some second-degree burns on my arse....campaigns take time-- if anyone knows that, it is me. But with the likes of TAB, Karaya2, and some other dedictaed mission makers, the sky is the limit. I will be getting back into mission making as well soon...but I need to finish the BP work first!

quote:

---

Originally posted by ArgonV:
I would start doing it myself, infact Ive released some pretty cool WW2 addons in the past... But now everything is just totally inorganized and half-done it would take me forever with out some help.

---

Well- it would seem that there is help now....and organization is soon to follow. So-- you know where to find me

------------------

Brought to you by the campaign for a better Dauntless!

Jeeves =FC=

posted 11-23- 10:37 AM               

P.S. Spanky, weve always used the WWW patches for OP-WWI. Infact weve taken advantage of some of the features it offers. To us, it doesnt slow the game down at all...

posted 11-23- 01:13 PM            

Further on SDOE I really got tired of fps issues with the later planepacks / patches / addons and eventually removed SDOE - although I'm having a rebirth so who knows. I really need a new PC though before I'll enjoy online again.

posted 11-23- 03:15 PM               

Having all your stuff in a pack isn't the solution to solid gameplay. If a group of people are dedicated entirely to WWI, great, but to pull out the violins when the subject of WWII comes up, and say what you did above, is bound to irritate, annoy and generally piss off the other group of people who are working, short handed, at cleaning up the WWII experience. Plenty of people enjoy both, but realize there are some who don't. Work is progressing, but broadcasting heresay isn't doing anything to help.

Werner

------------------

Abbeville Field: Dedicated to the SDOE Experience.

posted 11-23- 06:38 PM               

If this game is dead to you, fine. Its not for me or anyone else who is STILL trying to make this sim fun, new and exciting.

Sometimes I get the feeling from reading some of the posts around here that many wish that it would die. Some just post IL2 propoganda and others just post negativity. Ya, you can post it but, realize that it just wont go over well. We've always been on the defensive around here maybe because WE have nurtured this baby along since its release...warts and all.

posted 11-23- 07:12 PM            

SDOE is one of the longest hobbies I've had, for my usually short span of attention it's quite an acheivement and enjoyable.

New games come and go over the last three years and openplane with the community rolls them over. Il2 is going to be good, but it will be restricted whereas openplane has been proved it isn't.

I'm always hangin around, just wish that virtual pints could be poured and tasted for real in the FS:SDOE lobbies, I'd never leave then

posted 11-23- 08:52 PM               

I just d/l the latest version of .10 with the clouds fix. What I thought were poor frames earlier are now back to normal. Been flying online for the last 5 hours with Rendsburger, Viper, Galland, Steffen and Thijs and we're all using .10. The number of CDT's has also been reduced dramatically with only one for the entire time so far.

For me this game has COME ALIVE once more!

posted 11-23- 09:56 PM            

No new system here.....PII 400, 320 RAM, 16MB Voodoo Banshee....and getting pretty good FR's. I won't be flying IL-2 anytime soon because I don't have a choice....but SDOE will never leave this hard drive. Maybe the Banshee running in Glide helps, maybe not-- but this has always been my sim to love!

------------------

Brought to you by the campaign for a better Dauntless!

posted 11-23- 10:46 PM               

I was running a system pretty similar to yours.

THe frame rates where horrible and everything graphicaly was messed up.

I thought they stopped developing the glide system and were concentrating on GL?

I'm using a Voodoo 3 now so I could still try glide, but I have to wait till I get my hard drive replaced (for the second freaking time in 2 months) then I might give it a try.

Still there is never going to be a decent amount of people playing this game online it seems.

10-14 might be alot for SDOE, but its nothing compared to other games out there.

I want to be able to fly when I'm in the mood, not only when there happens to be people around.

I'm mostly intersted in whats happening with ww1 now, but it seems like they don't have a ton of people flying online either.

I'm hoping wings with wires actuallly pulls off making something.

Doens't seem like it though, anyone remember how a demo was supposed to come out this summer?

posted 11-24- 01:48 AM               

Our first title is tentatively named "Wings with Wires: First Flights" and is being created in celebration of the upcoming centennial of flight in 2003. This sim will let you take to the air in the first aircraft to ever fly – from Lilienthal's gliders, through the Wright Flyer – and all the way to the start of WWI. You will even be able to fly (or try to fly) aircraft that never left the ground! OpenPlane allows us to model such attempts.

Once we perfect our enhanced OpenPlane engine with "First Flights" we will focus on "Wings with Wires: Birds of Prey," currently in development as well.

posted 11-24- 02:15 AM               

Youre right, having everything in a pack isnt the solution to solid game play... Thats why we in OP-WWI integrated everything and made it complete and fluid.

Nat was (still is?) one of the head leaders of The Crew, was he not? Who better to get the "complete picture" from?

WW2 SDOE has ben around MUCH longer that OP-WWI has. SDOE is after all a WW2 sim! So why after all this time is it not "cleaned up" by now? I'll tell you why, Its lack of leadership and large combined group efforts!

I realize there are people out there who wish to not get involded in OP-WWI, and I realize there are people who wish to not get involved in SDOE WW2. And I also realize there are people who enjoy both. (Me being the latter) Bringing this out into the public eye IS going to help! Thats the whole reson Im talking about this... If people read these posts and go "You know what, SDOE WW2 could be sooo much more organised and better" and decide to jump on in and start leading or helping out, maybe much more would get done around here to peoples likings and/or satisfaction. I know we all wish SDOE to be better... (At least I do)

P.S. FYI: The OP-WWI Project is not just me. Ive noticed you using phrases like "your stuff" and "what you did above" and etc... I just want to make it clear and understood that we at OP-WWI are a team and a group effort working for the common greatness OP-WWI can be.

posted 11-24- 08:51 AM               

That was our "First-Flights" idea... we wanted to release a sim before Birds of Prey that only showcased early aircraft... but there was no interest at all in it at the time... but there was allot of interest in Birds of Prey, so we decided to jump right to the guns first

But still there was never any mention of a demo of any sort... or any expected release dates. We were to announce the first expected release date this summer... but that was the time we came up with the new plane to skip First Flights and go right to Birds of Prey. So this fall we announced the expected released date for Wings with Wires to be 4th Quarter 2002.

I wish I could promise it would be done by then... but all I can tell you for certain is that we are on track now and things are going very well. If you want to know what is going on, just check out our site... or feel free to visit our forum as well.

For some pictures of the latest modeling effforts you can look here:
http://www.wingswithwires.com/forum/posts.asp?id=100&fid=2

posted 11-24- 09:15 AM               

I'll start by ironing a big point out about The Crew:

When I first set out my plan for how the new online standard should be arranged I had help offered to get the work done, and so we started building the Base Pack, it didn't take very ong though before tis died and I couldn't get any help, so I shelved the idea feeling a little annoyed. Sometime later I was asked by DJ to head up The Crew, who would be a group of builders put together to get the Base Pack project completed, we spent maney days (weeks) thrashing out the plan, going over each point in fine detail and then work started, after about a month very litte real work had been done, then came 911 and all work on anything stopped, people went very quiet and all talk of the BP stopped. I made a post on our forum thanks Condor for all he was doing (He worked and is still working hard on the BP), but also to tel everyone there that I wanted a statur report and that if nothing was forthcomming I would bin the project in 1 week.. nothing was forthcomming.. I left SDOE feeling very pissed off and totaly disillussioned with the whole thing. Now, a couple of weeks back I was asked once again to head the team up, that I would have the people needed to get the work done quickly (3rd time lucky?), I layed down my ground rules, what I wanted to see happen before I would head the team again, and low and behold, I'm heading the team again. Since then only about 1 week has passed, but the ammount of work done has been massive. Jeeves, my very good friend, trusted confidaint, outstanding member of this community, he's completed the work that need doing on one of the major nations, and is now all but finished on 3 other nations. Quite simply, after a few emails and forum posts he's gone from knowing nothing about OPS to completeing a very large amount of work for the Base Pack. I always said the work isn't hard, but tedious, lots to check and change, and he's simply strolled through it.

So, where do we stand?

Lets start with a completion date: Forget it, I'm not going to put that pressure to work on the people in the team, they must want to do the work and not be worried that they are falling behind, thats just unfair when the work they are doing is for everyone here, not just themselves, and they aint getting paid in money for this (their payment will be seeing the project completed and a stable and controled WW2 environment setup atlast) But, I'm thinking around the end of the year, maybe January.

How much work has been compeleted: We're about 70% through off the top of my head, I need to sit down for a day and sort through everything that happend this week lol

We're still undermanned, and if Jeeves hadn't been so damned industrious this past week then I might have come asking for volunteers, I still might, but first I realy need to catchup myself lol, I know that sounds bad for me to be the head and have to catch up, but thats all credit to Jeeves making me look bad LMAO.

So, The Crew is still going (again) and work has progessed very quickly, and the thanks for The Crew still being around needs to go out to Jeeves, Condor and Snickers.

~Nat~

posted 11-24- 10:40 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by spin:
Further on SDOE I really got tired of fps issues with the later planepacks / patches / addons and eventually removed SDOE - although I'm having a rebirth so who knows. I really need a new PC though before I'll enjoy online again.

---

Well if your experience was like mine, the graphics card made this game come alive. I have a GeForce 3 now, but the 2 is just fine. Really, the difference is amazing, everything is so smooth.

posted 11-24- 11:35 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nat:
How much work has been compeleted: We're about 70% through off the top of my head, I need to sit down for a day and sort through everything that happend this week lol\

---

I know this would sound horrid, but can I put something on the list?

I recently learned that the loadout file's "numbers" override those in the .sm files. That is you can define a rate of fire (for instance) in the .sm, and then change it if need be in the loadout. Likewise you can put a bomb's warhead weight in the .sm and put nothing at all in the loadout (other than the fact that you have THIS bomb as opposed to THAT one).

What that means is that all of the guns and bombs should be "fully described" in the ord folders, instead of the planes loadouts. If we do this we can greatly simplify making new planes in the future - just load up the proper gun into your .sm for the plane, tell it how many rounds it has in the loadout.ppf, and you're done.

What does this mean for DIME? Well basically it's a cut and paste of the guns into a separate .sm, and then removing the model from the plane's .sm and referring to this one in the ord folder instead. As I understand it many of these were already done for the various ground objects.

I'm not suggesting this is high priority, notably because it does work as-is. However I plan on adding new ballistics code if I can get the code or someone on the patch team to include it. At that point we need some new info in the loadout, ordBC and ordBCModel, which everyone would have to add to every loadout in the game - or we could add it to the .sm's in the ord file and every plane gets it immediately.

I don't know what your plans are as the project moves forward, but I'd like to know if you think this is something that could be done. If so, perhaps one of the OPS gurus (Nat, spin?) could comment on the amount of work this would be?

posted 11-24- 01:13 PM               

For now, this wont be done to the Base Pack, this project is primarily to take everything we have, and sort it all out into a logical order with a new easy to update/use layout, but that said, because the pack will be so easy to update is a good reason for this idea to be put into testing, there's actualy much more can be done in the SM that people think, we just need to test this and make sure the guns work as programed in the SM with very little data in the Loadout, hopefully all we need to add in the loadout is the actual gun name, all other data is in the SM, here's an example from a ship comming in the near future, this is how the gun is coded:

(obProto 'CCrewPos) (obCrewType 'gun) (gunList 'gun117 'gun118) (gunInit (gunName 'gun117 gunMV 2952 gunWeight 33 gunROF 18 gunWarhead 10 gunAmmo 6720 gunChain 0,0,0)) (gunInit (gunName 'gun118 gunMV 2952 gunWeight 33 gunROF 18 gunWarhead 10 gunAmmo 6720 gunChain 0,0,0)) (obDamage (obHits 5000 obExplodes 3 5))

As you can see, all the info thats usualy in the loadout.ppf for planes is in there, including the full gunChaininit (chain, trigger, Sync/Unsync) Hopefully all you would need in a Loadout when this system is used would be:
(ordLoadIAR80
(ordInitList (
(gunChainInit 0 0 0 1200)
(gunChainInit 1 0 1 600)
(gunInit (gunName 'mg gunSound "sndMG1"))

ie, gun name so it shows up and the gunSound (although this can be coded into the SM file aswell, but this way allows the use of custom sounds more easily)