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Author
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Topic: ATTACK ON KABUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
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Snickers
Pilot
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posted 09-11- 05:08 PM
   
There has been an attack on Kabul Afghanistan! informations is sketchy at the moment....IP: Logged |
Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 09-11- 05:11 PM
Any clue WHO is attacking it? Do they have PROOF that they did it?
IP: Logged |
Snickers
Pilot
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posted 09-11- 05:13 PM
They havent said who yet, but as far as proof goes, they showed the missiles/bombs going off on NBC...IP: Logged |
Aladar
Pilot
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posted 09-11- 05:17 PM
Saw that too, but I hope to God its not the Americans.... the last thing we need is another War.IP: Logged |
Nat
JAG
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posted 09-11- 05:24 PM
It's not the US, but Aladar, if the Afganies are responsible via Bin Laden, I hope to hell there is another war, because anything less would be sickIP: Logged |
Snickers
Pilot
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posted 09-11- 05:26 PM
Listening to the BBC (my favorite source of world news...) The US has denied that the attack was launched by us. At the same time, the BBC went on to mention that there had been a (problem? My word) With a leader of the Afghan opposition party. Their initial theory is that this may have been launched by him (i.e. civil war...)IP: Logged |
Vahnatai
Pilot
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posted 09-11- 06:19 PM
the afghan opposition leader was the leader of Afghanistan when the taliban booted him...he also happens to be a supporter of the US. if it was them it was prolly in retaliation to the 'supposed' assassination of the opposition's leader (see BBC)IP: Logged |
Aladar
Pilot
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posted 09-11- 06:32 PM
But Nat, another war would KILL MORE LIVES, US and Afganistan alike! I agree with the concept of justice, and believe justice should be brought upon those who are responsible, but personally I would hate to see another war.IP: Logged |
Nat
JAG
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posted 09-11- 07:12 PM
Aladar, I know I'm speaking from a soldiers point of view, and not a "pure" civilian, but if you don't respond in such a manner as to strike fear into people, then you might aswell not respond at all. Today the stakes have been raised, and now you must raise them again, and prove once and forall what happens if a country harbours terrorists.Kabul, I've not heard much more, but think about this.. isn't it possible that Bin Laden has made an attempt to take over, or possibly people symapthetic with his cause. As was said, Civil war.. but one that could have a very bad end result if Bin Laden is able to be in the power structure. IP: Logged |
Jerry
Pilot
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posted 09-11- 08:31 PM
In case you haven't noticed Aladar, the war has already begun. The only question is whether we defend ourselves or not.IP: Logged |
DanW
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posted 09-11- 08:50 PM
I agree with Jerry.What happened today was an act of war. There is no other way to define it. Times have changed and tactics in warfare have changed. Sudden and unprovoked attacks on any country constitute an act of war. One thing is for sure, each and everyone one of us will always remember what we were doing today when we first heard the news, or watched it unfold on television. Think of the horror of those 250+ people on the airliners that died today, not knowing what was going. A national landmark has been completely obliterated. For the first time EVER in this country, no commerical planes are allowed to fly for fear of attack. A building which was a marvel of engineering, built in 13 odd months, undergoing a billion+ dollar restoration, that represents the strength and military might of democracy that helped defeat facism almost 60 years ago has been burning all day. War has started whether we like it or not. This is one of America's darkest hours. We must find out who is responsible and what country is aiding or harboring them. They must be punished. There is no turning back now, after what happened today. It's time to whip some ass. Let's just hope we finish the job this time. IP: Logged |
Sv
JAG
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posted 09-11- 09:17 PM
This is war- it is not punishment we are after, it is victory, and America will win.------------------
-Sv
Wings with Wires IP: Logged |
Swivet
Cadet
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posted 09-11- 09:36 PM
Nostradamous predicted all this stuff ya know, whether you believe it or not. What i dont understand is why weren't there any F-16's or military aircraft protecting the Pentagon of all places. I mean there is a no-fly-zone around that whole area. What is are tax dollars paying for? All these weapons we have just sitting in a wharehouse somewhere not being used is BS! We have the technology, we know who did this. Lets just do it already, and do it right!
I want revenge! and i want those terrorists heads on a spike!Swivet^I^ ------------------
"bangURdead" [This message has been edited by Swivet (edited 09-11-2001).] IP: Logged |
Nat
JAG
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posted 09-11- 09:42 PM
Swivet, the Pentagon has a pretty big civilian airport next to it. The plane came in hedge hopping, there isn't a defence against it. If the Pentagon was out in the country someplace, with nothing close, then I would critise more, but this is more a case of bad security planning from a very early stage  IP: Logged |
Wing 3 Chaps
Cadet
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posted 09-12- 08:21 AM
If we don't respond quickly, with firmness and resolve, and then follow it up as necessary, and then follow THAT up with a foreign policy that's firm and consistent (this isn't a slam on any single president, I can't remember when we've HAD a firm quick consistent foreign policy regardless the party), we increase the chances this will happen again. And it's not a time to discriminate between one terrorist organization or another. This is a war on ALL terrorists, and the nations that harbor and support them. To stop terrorism, everyone has to see that more damage than good is done by such acts.Arafat has come out and said he was horrified by this act. He has reason to be, regardless of whether Palistinians had anything to do with this, regardless of the fact that Palestinians dancing in the streets perhaps represented an extremist minority, support for his cause has just, I imagine, sunk. I am heartened by all the support voiced us from around the world, both on this forum by people from Canada, Australia, France, South America, England and the rest... and by leaders around the world like Putin, Cretien, Blair, the president of China... I'm heartened also by the way we as a nation have come together, including our political leaders. So, I'm here in the military, and we're saying to our government "sort out the who, what, when, where, and why, then give us our orders. We're ready to do our part." IP: Logged |
Biggles3
Pilot
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posted 09-12- 09:43 AM
and aladar remeber that most wars or scuffles are foucght from air to ground so if the us sends in its stealths ( b2s, f117a) then they can strike with hardly any threat of being shot down. hitting crucial targets ( NON CIVILIAN) like Hqs and air bases behing enemy lines with unprecadented acuracy.i am not saying war is good, WAR IS BAD! but what happent in NY and DC yesterday are as bad as pearl harbor. i hope for god sake that the lowest number of people get killed ( on both sides) but we must get whoever did this. p.s do we know who did it .. last i heard they were only speculating. u dont want to go killing inocent people. [This message has been edited by Biggles3 (edited 09-12-2001).] [This message has been edited by Biggles3 (edited 09-12-2001).] IP: Logged |
Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 09-12- 11:50 AM
I don't think just getting firm is going to do much guys, you can't get rid of every terrorist on the earth and you might create more while trying do to that. It seems this is a product of US foreign policy. Some of the middle east countries HATE the US, you have to change that, you can't just wipe them from the face of the earth, because: 1 the rest of the world won't just stand by if you try. 2 It would be impossible, and there would be people left who wanted YOUR heads on a spike.
Alot of people are saying this could be ww3, I think it could. UNLESS the USA thinks before it acts, don't do anything stupid. Also everyone says that the US could never fail if it went into Afganistan, tell that to all the Nam vets. The russians failed too, you might think yourself better then them, but don't underestimate the enemy. Please note I'm not saying don't punish those responsible, I'm just saying don't go overboard and start something even larger. If the USA wants to be the worlds police force it has to stop picking sides and just keep the peace. Don't supply weapons to one side, or the otherside will get pissed and retaliate. [This message has been edited by Spanky the Mad Dog (edited 09-12-2001).] IP: Logged |
Jerry
Pilot
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posted 09-12- 01:15 PM
Spanky, our problem all along is that our government worries too much about the ramifications of our actions. It's about time these asshole terrorists and countries start thinking about the ramifications of their actions.No one is proposing that we get into a ground war in Afganistan or anywhere else. Besides, if the American people and the American Government were behind the Vietnam war like they are now behind getting rid of terrorists, Vietnam would have been a different story. You say don't go overboard and start something larger. This is EXACTLY what we should do. When terrorists and countries aiding them know that they will be hurt a hundred fold more than what they inflict on us they will stop. You say we should get along with the Arab terrorists. Are you proposing that we abandon Isreal..the only democracy in the middle east? That's what it would take. Sorry, Spanky. Maybe it's different in Canada but in the US we fight and die for our principles and against the mass murder of our citizens. IP: Logged |
DanW
Pilot
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posted 09-12- 01:52 PM
Yeah, when I see civilian airliners being crashed into buildings, murdering thousands of innocent people, US and non-US citizens alike, I think WWIII is pretty damn close.I agree with Jerry, and I'm sure most other people do as well. We can't let this go unpunished. The factions behind this should be exterminated. They started this terror, and we should finish it. I'm all for the invasion of any country that harbors these people. I heard today that a poll taken said 80% of people surveyed would risk attack even if it means a war. 80 percent. I'm extremely outraged and as more Americans sober up and reality hits in, the whole country should become enraged. Now is Bush's chance to make his mark in history. It's ironic that Bush Sr. was also involved in a war in the middle east. Hopefully junior will finish the job. IP: Logged |
Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 09-12- 01:58 PM
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No one is proposing that we get into a ground war in Afganistan or anywhere else.
------------ Actually ALOT of people are saying the US should do just that, or worse, as in nukes. ------------
getting rid of terrorists
------------ Impossible, there is no way to do this. ------------
You say don't go overboard and start something larger. This is EXACTLY what we should do.
------------ If you do something without thinking and go over board you could turn this into ww3. This is what you want? I don't want to live in your fallout wasteland. ---------------
When terrorists and countries aiding them know that they will be hurt a hundred fold more than what they inflict on us they will stop.
--------------- The terrorists, don't care if they die or the people in their countries die, in fact they like it, the go to see god for doing his work. It won't stop anything. ---------------
You say we should get along with the Arab terrorist.
--------------- Nope I never said that, I said you should get along with the countries, otherwise you make people mad and some of them will rise up as terrorists. --------------
Are you proposing that we abandon Isreal..the only democracy in the middle east?
------------- Nope never said that either, I said, stop being warmongers, stop looking out only for your own financial interests, Stay in the middle east as peace keepers, stand between counties that want to create war, don't pick sides. Aid them both in finding a way of setteling their differnces. -----------------
Maybe it's different in Canada but in the US we fight and die for our principles and against the mass murder of our citizens.
----------------- We do to Jerry, I have thought of joining the military, I would die for my country. My dad has served in the Canadian military, servering in the middle east as a PEACE KEEPER. Myabe I should outline my posistion more clearly. Don't attack me (not that you are yet) ask questions and I will do my best to answer them. [This message has been edited by Spanky the Mad Dog (edited 09-12-2001).] [This message has been edited by Spanky the Mad Dog (edited 09-12-2001).] IP: Logged |
Jerry
Pilot
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posted 09-12- 03:36 PM
------------
No one is proposing that we get into a ground war in Afganistan or anywhere else.
------------ Actually ALOT of people are saying the US should do just that, or worse, as in nukes. No one has proposed a long protracted half-ass ground war like in Vietnam or Afganistan, like you seem to be afraid of. However, if a long ground war is what it takes to defend ourselves (but it won't) then so-be-it. What is needed and is wanted by most Americans is a decisive balls-out attack on anyone or any country involved in terrorism. Hit'em, hit'em hard and kick'em when they're down and squash'em. If it takes nukes (which it won't) use them. The Israeli's have nukes and will use them if they have to. The Arabs know this don't dare attack Israel with their military. ------------
getting rid of terrorists
------------ Impossible, there is no way to do this. So what? It's impossible to catch all criminals too. Are you suggesting we disband our police departments since we can't stop all crime? Get real Spanky. ------------
You say don't go overboard and start something larger. This is EXACTLY what we should do.
------------ If you do something without thinking and go over board you could turn this into ww3. This is what you want? I don't want to live in your fallout wasteland. World War III with whom? What nuclear power has sided with the terriorists? Besides, your friends over in Flame Wars say we will never be attacked by nuclear missles. And I don't want to live in your world of cowardace, where fighting for freedom and defending our citizens is less important than avoiding war at all costs. ---------------
--------------- The terrorists, don't care if they die or the people in their countries die, in fact they like it, the go to see god for doing his work. It won't stop anything. The committed terrorist yes...and we should do all we can to enable them to see god, but do it before they attack. As for the governments aiding them, I don't think they are as anxious to meet god as the fanatics. If they are then let's help them. ---------------
You say we should get along with the Arab terrorist.
--------------- Nope I never said that, I said you should get along with the countries, otherwise you make people mad and some of them will rise up as terrorists. Besides support Isreal what have we done to get these countries mad at us? What have we done that the rest of the Western World hasn't done? How is Canada dealing with Afganistan and Iraq and Libya differently than the US?
--------------
Are you proposing that we abandon Isreal..the only democracy in the middle east?
------------- Nope never said that either, I said, stop being warmongers, stop looking out only for your own financial interests, Stay in the middle east as peace keepers, stand between counties that want to create war, don't pick sides. Aid them both in finding a way of setteling their differnces. We are warmongers? Who have we attacked lately? How do you "stand between countries tht want to create war" without committing troops which you are saying we shouldn't do? Why doesn't the UN do all this? Do you really want an American run world where we decide who fights and who doesn't? Where our idea of "peace" is imposed on everyone else? First you accuse us of being a warmonger but you want us to police and control everyone elses military! -----------------
Maybe it's different in Canada but in the US we fight and die for our principles and against the mass murder of our citizens.
----------------- We do to Jerry, I have thought of joining the military, I would die for my country. Then let us die for ours. But we will die before we roll over and allow mass murder for the sake of "getting along". And if we die we're taking a lot of people down with us. My dad has served in the Canadian military, servering in the middle east as a PEACE KEEPER. Too bad he failed. Myabe I should outline my posistion more clearly. Your position is perfectly clear....and would be very different if it had been 10,000 Canadian civiians! Or would it? Don't attack me (not that you are yet) ask questions and I will do my best to answer them. [This message has been edited by Jerry (edited 09-12-2001).] IP: Logged |
DanW
Pilot
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posted 09-12- 04:15 PM
"What nuclear power has sided with the terriorists? Besides, your friends over in Flame Wars say we will never be attacked by nuclear missles. "Exactly. It's what some of us have tried to tell you all along. NO missile shield could have protected us from what happened yesterday. It proved our points precisely. It's pretty much meaningless anyway. Apparently, a new type of warfare has emerged. It's just as scary and silent as stealth bombers. Why build a billion + dollar missile shield when they can just go around it? IP: Logged |
Werner Molders
JAG
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posted 09-12- 05:18 PM
This is moving closer to flame wars material folks, watch those borderline personal attacks please.WM ------------------
Abbeville Field: Dedicated to the SDOE Experience. IP: Logged |
Jerry
Pilot
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posted 09-12- 05:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DanW:
"What nuclear power has sided with the terriorists? Besides, your friends over in Flame Wars say we will never be attacked by nuclear missles. "Exactly. It's what some of us have tried to tell you all along. NO missile shield could have protected us from what happened yesterday. It proved our points precisely.
I don't see the connection DanW. Who ever said that a missle shield would have prevented yesterday? How did yesterday prove that a missle shield against missles will never be needed? Yesterday did prove that terriorist will use ANY means available to them to attack us. They will look for holes in our defenses and take advantage of them. Spanky said he didn't want to live in our nuclear waste if going after terriorists caused WWIII. I pointed out that according to you and your friends there is absolutely no danger of a nuclear attack on the US so he has nothing to fear...if he believes you. [This message has been edited by Jerry (edited 09-12-2001).] IP: Logged |
Jerry
Pilot
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posted 09-12- 05:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Werner Molders:
This is moving closer to flame wars material folks, watch those borderline personal attacks please.WM
Hold on there Werner. Off Topic, yes. But since when is disagreeing a flame? IP: Logged |
Lothar
Pilot
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posted 09-12- 05:55 PM
Jerry, regarding the missile defense:
Its a matter of getting the best value for the dollar. A missile attack is pretty remote and there are thousands of ways to attack without missiles, as we saw yesterday. Since a missile shield is tremendously expensive for a small bit of secutiry, it seems to be a bad deal.
For instance, what if those billions were spent on better intelligence? Maybe then we'd have known about yesterday's attack, or about a future attack using a method we could never plan to build a defense against.Regarding it being ironic that Bush Sr. was in a middle east war: No, it isn't. Our foriegn policy in the middle east guarantees that we will continue to have wars there. Its a fanatical, unstable region. We step in on one side, give them weapons while chiding the other side. Every few years we switch who we support. We send them billions in oil revenue so they have plenty of money to carry out their actions. Get used to U.S. wars in the middle east.
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Snickers
Pilot
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posted 09-12- 06:02 PM
Because the foreign policy changes with the President (potentially every 4 years) - and occassionally more often... you will see this type of "waffling". This still provides no grounds for the actions of yesterday.------------------
Snickers
=FC=
Thou shalt maintaineth altitude, lest the earth rise up and smite thee.
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DanW
Pilot
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posted 09-12- 06:19 PM
"Boooooooooooring. This coming from a guy that thinks missiles are gonna come falling from the sky soon."-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 'Well asswipe, how ridiculous does it sound now?' YOU did. IP: Logged |
Jerry
Pilot
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posted 09-12- 06:21 PM
Lothar,It's not too likely that my house will catch on fire and I have owned 4 homes. In fact, I can't think of anyone who has lost a house because of a fire. But I still have home owners fire insurance because the loss would be devestating. So would a nuclear or biolgical missle attack even if it's not too likely. So why not buy some insurance? Until yesterday the experts would have said that a nuclear or biolgical missle attack is about as likely as four simultaneous airline hijackings resulting in the total destruction of the WTC with the loss of 10,000 + lives and a direct attack on the Pentagon. Kind of changes the odds don't you think? Also, we do NOT switch who we support every few years in the Middle East. We have ALWAYS supported Isreal. It has cost us dearly, as shown yesterday, far more than the money you are worried about spending on missle defense. But supporting Israel is worth it because defending our friends is morally right.....and so is defending our own people. IP: Logged |
Jerry
Pilot
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posted 09-12- 06:26 PM
DanW, how is moving a quote from Flame Wars (where it belongs) to here going to add to the discussion? If you can't behave yourself perhaps you should stay in Flame Wars and let the rest of get on with a meaningful discussion.IP: Logged |
Lothar
Pilot
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posted 09-12- 06:42 PM
Jerry, you don't spend a million dollars developing an underground electric perimeter fence to protect against ebola carrying gophers, do you? You could probably use the money better on a security system or home insurance.Regarding our Middle Eastern alliances, I was thinking of Iran, Iraq and Afganistan, all of which we have at one time armed and also bombed. Isreal is a real issue with our involvement in the region, though I think oil is bigger. The oil problem has a solution, though not easy - stop buying it by reducing our need for it. The Isreal problem doesn't have any obvious solution, and sometimes it seems like a peaceful solution there is impossible. Why anyone would want to live there boggles the mind... there are fanatics on both sides. IP: Logged |
Jerry
Pilot
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posted 09-12- 07:02 PM
No, but you have to watch out for those Typhus carrying gophers.  IP: Logged |
Snickers
Pilot
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posted 09-12- 07:18 PM
Ebola is a vetor borne disease. I am not at liberty to tell you the defences we have in place. I will however be needing another $50 from each of your wallets to pay for them...  IP: Logged |
Jerry
Pilot
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posted 09-12- 07:21 PM
No need Snickers. There are no vetors in Oregon. We hunted them to extinction. Working on the Spotted Owl now. IP: Logged |
Werner Molders
JAG
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posted 09-12- 09:21 PM
Jerry - it was a pre-emptive warning, nothing more. This is a very good discussion but I saw it bordering on the personal between you and Spanky in places (thank you for taking it no further) so I thought I'd try to avert this from spiralling into severe nastiness. It's the usual Flame Wars crew posting in this thread, so obviously there is a much higher likelihood of things getting nasty, as DanW demonstrated a few posts later.In other news I'm hearing on CNN right now that Empire State and Penn Station (?) are being evacuated as I write, 8pm Mountain time. Werner /correction 8:20, my comp's clock is slow ------------------
Abbeville Field: Dedicated to the SDOE Experience. [This message has been edited by Werner Molders (edited 09-12-2001).] IP: Logged |
Todesvogel
Pilot
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posted 09-12- 09:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Spanky the Mad Dog:
Some of the middle east countries HATE the US, you have to change that, you can't just wipe them from the face of the earth, because:
.
.
.
2 It would be impossible, and there would be people left who wanted YOUR heads on a spike.
They already do, as you said. IP: Logged |
Todesvogel
Pilot
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posted 09-12- 09:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Spanky the Mad Dog:
....Nope never said that either, I said, stop being warmongers, stop looking out only for your own financial interests, Stay in the middle east as peace keepers, stand between counties that want to create war, don't pick sides. Aid them both in finding a way of setteling their differnces.
As I mentioned elsewhere, there is no peace. Peace would diminish the power and purpose of the Terrorsists' organization. They would be out of a job. They will never allow this. There is no peace. War is coming. We just haven't taken it "over there" today. IP: Logged |
Psi
Pilot
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posted 09-12- 09:41 PM
quote:
I don't want to live in your fallout wasteland.
Move to Kabul Spanky, you won't have to worry about nuclear fallout...P IP: Logged |
Sv
JAG
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posted 09-12- 10:08 PM
Werner,Not a bad idea to keep things in check, but please don't label some of us as the "usual Flame Wars crew." I think all of us who post there understand that it is a fair place to vent - and none of us take things personal in that forum... and we certainly would never post anything of flame wars content in a serious forum. I'm not meaning to suggest that you meant it that way, but us flame war customers want to keep our integrity ya know IP: Logged |
Maury Markowitz
Pilot
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posted 09-12- 10:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry:
It's not too likely that my house will catch on fire and I have owned 4 homes. In fact, I can't think of anyone who has lost a house because of a fire. But I still have home owners fire insurance because the loss would be devestating. So would a nuclear or biolgical missle attack even if it's not too likely. So why not buy some insurance?
It's a fair question, but sadly the answer is all too obvious: statistics. Right now it looks like cat 3 deployment will cost something on the order of 100 billion, and likely won't work against anyone who tries hard. Now that same 100 billion could have stopped this attack. No problem. But it's too hard to convince people to put 100 billion of their money into something that no one sees, or actively hates - elint. So we have projects like this. Actually that's not why we have projects like this, it's to give TWR something to do. Yes, I'm perfectly serious, this is why we have the Nuclear Stuardship Program too. NMD certainly has deterrant value, but so does 50 TLAMs from a cruiser offshore. However 50 TLAMs costs about 100 million dollars and we know they work. That same 100 billion could also re-pave every road in the US and install new and updated road signs. This would most likely save more lives than a missile shield would in a full-on attack. Likewise some 500000 people will die in the US from smoking this year if I got the number right, yet almost zero is spent on that. As morbid as this sound, you, Jerry, are going to die of heart failure. So is almost everyone reading this. If not that, then smoking or car accidents. But we don't think about that because it's all around us. quote:
Until yesterday the experts would have said that a nuclear or biolgical missle attack is about as likely as four simultaneous airline hijackings
You need to find some better experts. For one thing this is not the first time four planes have been hijacked, it happened in 1970 as well. Furthermore if you read the literature you'll find all sorts of people talking about just this sort of attack. No small number of them name the white house, senate, pentagon and WTC as the prime targets in the US. Heck, Clancy even wrote a book about it. They had some of these areas as no-fly zones for just this reason, but they never reall enforced it. As morbid as this sounds, there's a lot of people who have been waiting for this to happen. Everyone's certainly shocked that they did such a "good" job of it, but I assure you that most people in the industry considered airliner attack to only be a matter of time. And yet, NOTHING was done to stop it. And the most sickening part of all of this is just how trivially easy it is - install better doors in the planes and make the pilots lock them. That's it. That would stop something on the order of 100% of all hijackings since 1980, and it would have stopped these ones. Yet the arguments by the airlines are that it's not safe and they keep winning. quote:
Also, we do NOT switch who we support every few years in the Middle East.
Yes, but that doesn't excuse the really terrible track record the State Department has. In the past it was real easy - fight the USSR or simply say you're anti-communist and they started shipping you weapons. Today you would hope that things wouldn't be so stupidly simple, but only time will tell. quote:
But supporting Israel is worth it because defending our friends is morally right.....and so is defending our own people.
I couldn't agree more. Maury
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