posted 07-29- 01:47 AM               

One of the reason i didnīt fullfill my intention to fly here before was i feelt it was to sensitive to get into air. I had some problem with my throttle and that increased the problem because my plane was skidding all over on the ground. All pilots was helpful and told me to not use more than 30 percent at start but that didnīt help me so much because my throttle was so sensitive for me. In some aspects itīs better for me to start with more throttle and as soon as possible get my tailwheel up from ground as soon as possible.

My thougts and question is now - donīt you think this sim is little unrealistic in this first start to get up into air from a airfield. Itīs more like it have been raining a week and itīs slippery on grass and mud.

Is it possible for anyone to fix it ? Leave that part you get the propeller into ground if you have to much throttle for that part is realistic and let it be little unstable like it should be but not so the plane is skidding all over.. - little more like it is in Aces High.. ?

Would be nice if anyone could give me a comment on this matter.

Yours

Barcat26AC

posted 07-29- 02:41 AM               

I set my controls up so they felt best with the Spitfire and P51, sort of a compromise. If I fly other craft, I have problems. I have reached a point where I can take off 'in the vicinity of' the strip - LOL - with most of the planes, Allied or Axis...but not nearly all. And even those I can sometimes take me on a rodeo tour.

posted 07-29- 03:18 AM            

download
Stickworks, the latest version number v3.20
this is the site
www.stickworks.com

this is the file link http://home.att.net/~stickworks/ctfjv320.zip

it's a useful program that uses very little resources, and with it you can, configure your joystick to be les sensative on all 3 axis,,, and also set the gain so it's less sensative towards the centre etc,, a great program that will solve your problem.

in the program i'm sure you will only need to change the slider bar, and it will show a graphic of how your joystick would respond.

good luck

posted 07-29- 10:20 AM               

1. Close throttle

2. Start engine

3. Pull stick all the way back. This does two things.
a. It puts pressure on the tail wheel for steering control
b. In real aircraft it would engage the steering mechanism for the tail wheel. (otherwise it would be more like a coaster)

4. Release brakes

5. Keep back pressure on the stick and advance the throttle slowly. Just like you would when you drive a car. You don't mash the gas all the way to the floor when you start. You start slowly and keep advancing as you gain speed. You can go to full throttle this way.

6. When air speed is above 50 mph, ease the stick to neutral position. (You now have enough air speed so that the rudder can control the plane) The tail should start to rise on it's own. Be prepared to counter the engine torque with the rudder when the tail lifts off (Needs just a little)

7. When your speed is about 110 - 120 mph you can pull back on the stick a little and lift off.

posted 07-29- 12:02 PM               

Yes, this works with most of the planes - just for fun, rather than ease the stick to neutral at about 50, let it 'slam' back. LOL - the results can be quite fun! Especially since, as a sim pilot, you can sit back and watch rather then experience the result first hand!

Sometimes with the Spit and 51, when the nose drops and I increase speed, I will have to use stick and rudder in a 'slide' fashion to keep her pointed straight. A lot depends on your controller setup. I have had much success with CTFJ 3.20 also - if any of your controllers are ultra sensitive, that program will help. I currently use a gain of 95, dead zone of 5, and deadzone of 10 for the rudders, with sensitivity in the sim at lowest setting and dead zone about 1/4. This is with a CH stick, throttle, and rudder setup.

posted 07-29- 12:46 PM               

"Go to Options/Input and make sure Couple Steering to Rudder is checked. This gives you directional control with the rear wheel on a tail dragger. Then keep your tail on the ground until you have built up speed. As a beginner you should go to Options/General and make sure you have engine torque and wind turned off. Torque especially is difficult to deal with until you get a lot of practice.

Most of all, you need to realize that this is not a "game". These planes have very realistic flight and handling characteristics and takeoffs and landing take a lot of practice. Think how difficult it would be to takeoff in a real warbird without training.

posted 07-29- 02:41 PM               

I think i start flying little at my weekends and take it easy by testing it all out now. I also fly Aces Hight more and more. I like the feeling of that sim despite the padlock is so bad.

I have been in other sims to long and think i must find a nice community and also a sim who are realistic. I guess SDOE can be worth trying little more seriously now... letīs see. And i checking this forum from now - to see if you are nice guys

Iīm always a step after my friends in the squadron.... Iīm their little brother... with short legs !

posted 07-29- 04:25 PM               

In development, the programmers had to lower the friction coefficient for the ground to keep planes from nosing over when their wheels touched during landing. There's no known way around this so .....

Without external ordnance, only use 69-75% power on most WWII fighters and you'll be ok.

Also, if you aren't carrying bombs or rockets, try NOT using flaps during takeoff with WWII fighters, but always land with flaps extended.

Remember to gently apply throttle. Full throttle from a standing start causes major compression on one of the landing gear struts (depending on the direction of engine rotation) and will make the plane turn hard around the compressed strut due to excessive friction on that side (i.e. wheel bearings, rubber to ground, etc)

And try the joystick utility mentioned above from stickworks. You can turn down the sensitivity to something easier to use and gradually increase the sensitivity as you get used to it. One word of caution here, turning down the sensitivity too much will make the aircraft much less manueverable in the air.

posted 07-29- 05:54 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by nealg:
I have never flown a plane, but I know a couple who have, and they consider some ( not all ) of the SDOE planes to be very close to realistic in takeoff and landing characteristics.

---

Well I've flown about a dozen planes, and not one reacts anything like SDoE.

That's not to say it's wrong, but I have a nagging suspicion it's not right.

For instance, try this some time. Get in a 190, pull all the way back, and start your roll. Even with the controls all the way back, just before you lift off you'll get a strong yaw to the left.

Ok, why? There's certainly no physical reason for it that I can think of. Sure, ROTATION could case this, but my tail is firmly held to the ground. Sure SLIPSTREAM could cause this, but if that's the problem, why does it happen so suddenly?

posted 07-30- 06:26 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by nealg:
Maury; Had occasion to do just that in a 190 yesterday, and you are correct.

---

Well that was just an example, there are similar odd effects for most or all of the planes. The Spit does it, the 51 does it, they all do it to one degree or another.

I'm guessing, but I'll bet it's in the slipstream code somewhere. Some non-linearity in the code.

The only place it really _bugs_ me though is on the 262, which should have no such effects at all. Of course this is a side effect of simulating the jet engines with little teeny propellors.

posted 07-30- 08:59 PM               

The right wing is just starting to fly and since we've got full aft stick we are sortof holding the airplane in a stall or near stall attitude and combined with all the left turning tendencies the left wing is dropping due to it stalling?

Just a thought and maybe way off base--but I was trying your scenario out and sure enough it did what you said--but it felt like the 190 was stalling at lift off since the stick was being held aft. Of course it doesn't do this at all if the tail is lifted off at around 60 knots or so--(although it does then have a nasty yaw to the right for me at that point when the tail comes up--gyroscopic precession maybe?--aah--I have no idea why).

I like the feel of takeoffs and landings in this game better than any other I know. SV is right though-due to the friction problem on the ground-its like taking off on ice which isn't realistic. But once the tail is up and the rudder is effective-man it feels right to me mostly. Of course-as you say--who knows how these airplanes really felt and the 262 shouldn't be pulling left or right at all.

I also know there are some other things in the flight model that aren't all that great--for one thing--after I took the 190 off using your method--I simply held the stick fully aft and flew along at 95 kts indicated without stalling or anything-so go figure.I was trying to get the left wing to drop like it had on the runway but to no avail.

posted 07-31- 12:46 AM               

And yes if you try to take off with full backstick and no flaps one wing will stall and start to drop, this is realistic AFAIK. Works better to go full backstick until you are up to speed then relax stick and let the tail lift up while using rudder to keep nose straight.

TS

posted 07-31- 06:47 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by ArthurQ:
Maury-about that 190 takeoff scenario. I'm certainly no expert--but I was wondering if maybe what's happening since the takeoff is being attempted with the stick all the way aft--if we aren't getting one wing flying before the other possibly due to the left turning tendencies modelled into the game of prop aircraft?

---

That could certainly explain a roll, but not the yaw. This is a sharp swing to the left about 10 degrees. This is why I suspect it's something in the slipstream code that's suddenly "turning on". All the other effects that could cause this would only happen while the plane was _rotating_, either bringing the tail up or down.

There are some other effects the game doesn't have as well. P-factor would cause the yaw to the _right_ as the tail lifted, and the gyro effect to the left.

Nevertheless, I'm going to give your suggestion a try from 2 view and see if that's the case.

posted 07-31- 07:17 AM               

But you're right, it happens JUST before liftoff in every case. I'll have to turn on vectors and see what's going on. It might be that you're hitting a sweet spot in the wing's drag curve so the one wing suddenly has less drag than the other?

posted 07-31- 08:15 AM               

The following are direct quotes for a P-51 Flight Manual for Take-Off.

"
3. Advance throttle smoothly and steadily to Take-Off Power.

Note: It is recommended that 61 in. Hg and 3000 rpm be used for all take-offs and that this power setting be reached as quickly as possible after the take-off run is started. Do not jam throttle forward, as torque will cause loss of control of airplane."

4. If rough engine occurs.....

5. Do not attemp to lift tail too soon, as this increases torque action. Pushing the stick forward unlocks the tail wheel, thereby making steering difficult. The best take-off procedure is to hold the tail down until sufficient speed for rudder control is attained and then to raise the tail slowly.
"

I also notice that when the tail of the P-51D lifts off the ground there is a strong yaw to the right.

The real P-51D's tail is offset 1 degree to the right to counter for torque. I don't know if this would help us here.

posted 07-31- 08:47 PM               

Hard to imagine.

posted 08-01- 01:23 AM               

You started a debate on this once before. I was curious so I showed what you explained should be the proper way to takeoff based on your experiences in the Cessnas to some guys that have flown warbirds.

Both of them kind of smiled and said the methods you suggested were a good way to get killed on the ground in a real warbird.

One guy teaches flying in the planes you said you've flown. HJe commented that your opinions were totally understandable given your experience but there is absolutely NO way you can compare the ground handling characteristics of a Cessna to those of a P-51.

I explained the friction issue and he knows enough about physics to see where it deviates from reality, but he told me the takeoff procedure I use is much closer to real life in a Warbird than what you described.

let me point out one thing on the yaw issue- almost no one uses the rudder trim BEFORE rolling down the runway to off set the yaw introduced when air speed is high enough for the rudder to take control.

The P-51 required SEVERAL degrees of rudder trim during takeoff to prevent this from happening.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem, but I think your perceptions may be biased by your experience.

We have had several people at times that have had relatives that flew a warbird like a Spit try out the SDOE version. Each time it's been reported they were amazed at how realistic every aspect of this game is compared to any other out ther.

posted 08-01- 02:30 AM               

It takes a bit of practice ( Thank God it is a sim, and not the real thing ) but the technique works similarly for me with the 51, Spit, and even the 109 on occasion. With the Spit, 5 to 7 clicks right trim is a necessity...maybe more with the IX...but liftoff can be a hairy bugger. I usually try to build up to 120-130 before lift...it seems to counter the left wing drop a bit. The 1a is the sweetest for me, then the Vb, with the IX being the bear. With bomb or rocket loads, though, all bets are off...clear the runway, the tower, the PX, and the surrounding countryside!

But even after all this time with SDOE, a good takeoff and a smooth landing leave me with a feeling of having accomplished something, no matter how often I do it.

Here's a quick rundown ( if you are still reading, hehe ) of my Spit 1a and Vb takeoff procedure:

1. Start engine
2. 5 to 7 clicks right trim
3. 1 to 2 clicks nose down trim
4. Throttle up to about 12-13%
5. Release brake
6. Full back on stick
7. A tad right rudder ( slight )- adjust left/right as needed.
8. Slightly increase throttle to about 25-30%
9. Let it roll until I hear the 'gravelly' sound; it is pretty distinct. ( Tailwheel engaging?)
10. Gradually increase throttle to about 30-35% until speed at or above 35 to 40.
11. Ease stick forward until in neutral position, slowly increase throttle to about 50%, or until speed reaches 50-60. Nose should ease down here..prepare to counter left swing with rudder and stick if needed, but don't over-correct.
12. Gently ease throttle up...I am usually at 100 or better before throttle is at 70%..slowly give full throttle and lift off, with gentle right rudder and stick pressure until she 'takes the wind'.
13. Trim, trim, trim, and more trim...

This is with my CH setup and Stickworks' settings, so obviously it may work a bit different for others. Oh, notice I didn't mention flaps...I don't use them usually on takeoffs. It makes her a bit more 'slippery, but the speed is worth it, as it seems to accelerate quicker.

Sorry if it was boring.

------------------
nealg=FC=

[This message has been edited by nealg (edited 08-01-2001).]

posted 08-01- 07:30 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Raider:
Maury, while these problems exist, I don't think it is realistic to take off with only 30 percent throttle and full up elevator.

---

Neither do I, but if you do it at full power, it happens way too fast. Nevertheless, let me assure the the exact same thing does indeed happen. Try it in the Spit, it's even more obvious than the 190.

quote:

---

I also notice that when the tail of the P-51D lifts off the ground there is a strong yaw to the right.

The real P-51D's tail is offset 1 degree to the right to counter for torque. I don't know if this would help us here.

---

The problem is that torque would cause a roll, not a yaw. Now it can couple through the landing gear to cause a yaw (more weight on one leg than the other) so of course nothing's ever that simple.

posted 08-01- 07:41 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Da Jug head:
You started a debate on this once before. I was curious so I showed what you explained should be the proper way to takeoff based on your experiences in the Cessnas to some guys that have flown warbirds.

---

But I'm not comparing small planes (although twin-otter isn't exactly small, and outpowers a P-51 by double, but I digress) with the plane in the game. I'm talking straight physics in the game.

Something is causing the planes to yaw sharply to the left just before takeoff. This is true if the tail rotates or doesn't rotate. That's what's confusing.

BTW, the reason a plane like the P-51 yaws is due to P-factor, but the game doesn't model that (yet).

quote:

---

let me point out one thing on the yaw issue- almost no one uses the rudder trim BEFORE rolling down the runway to off set the yaw introduced when air speed is high enough for the rudder to take control.

The P-51 required SEVERAL degrees of rudder trim during takeoff to prevent this from happening.

---

I assume by "no one" you mean current pilots. That's because current pilots fly tricycle landing gear, with maybe a degree or two of AoA in the prop. With a tail-dragger you have maybe 7 degrees of AoA which makes the P-factor MUCH stronger.

quote:

---

On top of this the ground friction affects more than the straight line rolling characteristics. THis means it's easier for prop wash to induce enough force to cause a tail to swing as it's easier for one landing gear to slide than in real life.

---

Like I said, this is why I suspect it has lots to do with propwash and little to do with torque or other similar effects. The fact that you see the same effect on twins and jets in the game seems like a gimme.

posted 08-01- 08:23 AM               

I think the reason is there's nothing written down that equates "so many clicks = so many degrees of rudder trim"

The other cause of what you're seeing may be in the code. There's a possibility a certain threshold value has to be crossed before the game adds in whatever causes this, so instead of a gradually induced efffect it "turns on" like throwing a light switch.