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Author	Topic: Is SDOE a Fat Pig?
Himdog Pilot	posted 06-19- 11:26 AM Ok first my disclaimer. This is not about a person or persons, squad or squads, plane or planes, plane builder or plane builders, or FMs. I think all the add ons a very nice and I have no problem with them or their builders. I can not thank you enough. So what I am about to post is not made to make anyone here mad but hopefully to open your eyes and try and make you see another point of view. I've posted before and this will be my last post about the "Fat Pig" we call SDOE. There are alot of people who will not play SDOE because of the big installs, keeping up with the online standard, having to keep reading the FSIC so they can keep up with the ever changing sim, just plain being lost because they are not good on a PC and not having the enough time in the day to play because they only have an hour or maybe two before they have to get off and do real life stuff. Now I was going to post this under BH’s thread but I want this in a topic by it’s self. Each person we lose, for whatever reason is bad, if they have opinion then fine, but for other people to jump on them because they feel a different way, well that’s not right and I don’t care what you do for SDOE. I think it wrong when someone post a thread that wasn’t in the flame wars but the replies are in the flame wars bad taste. Online has been very poor as of late and it’s not getting better. I know this happens but we didn’t have that many people to begin with so lets not lose anymore. Ok that said lets move on to what this post is really about. I going to say we need to move off all planes that are in the PTO into their own install, yes that means all the Corsairs, Hellcat, Zeroes, land objects and terrain(s). Then we do the same for the what I call the one offs, He163, Go229, He100, Ju88DN and other planes I can not think of just yet. We keep the Ground Pack in it’s own install too. We also will have a Eastern Front install and maybe a early war install too. I know I’ll hear about the Corsairs, but my point is this: The Corsairs have no dance partners, well the Zero, but that is it. So please don’t say well we don’t need four 109s either, that is not a fair judgment. Germany has only two fighters, the 109 and 190 but hey make an early war pack and take out some planes, maybe the 109E, spit MK1a, Pz11, A36, or something like that. All these pack will NOT be online standard, just an option. The WWI pack is done like this, why can’t the others been done? We will be left with a smaller and more easy pack to deal with. No one loses. Why am I saying this. No it’s not for me because I’m on cable so the dl are not bad for me but the guys who have a 56k, are not too good on the pc but just want to play and have fun, yes it’s for them and in return I’ll have more fun. Please read this with an open mind. Thank you. ------------------ 7./JG3_Himdog out www.luftwaffe.net IP: Logged
nealg Pilot	posted 06-19- 11:57 AM Well said, Himdog. I thought about posting a new thread similar, but I will just add to yours, if ya don't mind. I think you are spot on. And I am no rookie to SDOE. I reread my attempt to help BH, and thought, Jesus, if this were me 10-15 years ago, I'd have no idea what the hell this nealg was talking about. I then read BH's next posts, and no where did I find anything to cause such a reaction. When boiled down, what he said was basically right for him, and for many others. So the ideas you put forth make sense. I see that last thread was moved to Flame Wars. I disagree there, Hawk. I think it, and this, should be out in the open where everyone has a chance to read them. They do pertain to SDOE and what it was, is, and has ( had ? ) a chance to become. I like what Him says, and think maybe it should be seriously looked at. ------------------ nealg=FC= IP: Logged
Da Jug head Pilot	posted 06-19- 12:02 PM Himdog, Neal We really need somone to spearhead developing a solution to this issue. Either one of you guys willing? (pretty please ) A lot of people agree but since no one has stepped forward to help develop a solution, the problem is still out there. ------------------ "Da Jug" FM question: Which end does the propeller thingy go on? Fighter Squadron Central ICQ: 121447410 IP: Logged
Werner Molders JAG	posted 06-19- 12:05 PM I didn't move it, but given the choice of vernacular used throughout the thread I would have been hard pressed not to. The issue needs to be addressed, but that one didn't belong in "General", which isn't adequately disclaimered for the kind of language found within it the way Flame Wars is. I agree completely with both of you, and I think Himdog's suggestion is a great one. Question is, what kind of a quorum will it take for us to say "ok, this is how we are going to do it", and then who is going to say "ok, I'm putting together the PTO/etc pack". If we can get those parts nailed then we're good to go. Werner ------------------ Abbeville Field: Dedicated to the SDOE Experience. [This message has been edited by Werner Molders (edited 06-19-2001).] IP: Logged
Bulldog2 Pilot	posted 06-19- 12:17 PM Well said HD, This sim has lost me at the moment as I just don't have time or the hard drive to enjoy this sim anymore. I can't remember the last time I enjoyed an on-line session. I'm fading and it looks like there's no hope of getting back into it. IP: Logged
Razer Pilot	posted 06-19- 12:18 PM Well, I've been thinking of making a Pac add-on in one par file that can be turned on and off with the openplane options now in the game. This would take some time and slow my projects some but it would be like a new game. Also, the ki-61 is moving a long and it's a plane to fight the F4Us and Mposis is still working on his jack, plus I also have the N1K2 and Mposis's Val so there is more then just the Zero to fight. If anyone would like to help work on the pacific add-on let me know and we could work on some of the little things. [This message has been edited by Razer (edited 06-19-2001).] IP: Logged
Psi Pilot	posted 06-19- 12:18 PM Great forsight there Himdog and I like it. Neal I agree, all deserve the opportunity to be heard, good or bad. Werner, we just do it... IP: Logged
Da Jug head Pilot	posted 06-19- 12:24 PM quote: Originally posted by Psi: Werner, we just do it... How? Who makes the decisions? Where do we make the cuts for each theater? Who will find out what the members think is the best way to proceed? One more time. Will SOMEBODY step up and tke over handling this issue? ------------------ "Da Jug" FM question: Which end does the propeller thingy go on? Fighter Squadron Central ICQ: 121447410 IP: Logged
ArgonV Pilot	posted 06-19- 12:26 PM Yes SDOE is a fat pig... I have several installs of it just so I can play everything. Right now Im heading the WWI department because the WW2 side of SDOE got a bit to... how do you say... hectic. IP: Logged
Nat JAG	posted 06-19- 12:46 PM I'm not into this realy, I build what I feel like, thats easy enough,I don't think anyone or group is pushing this game in any direction, but still, with all the problems this still brings me back to my ealier post on plane packs, I still believe they should be limitied to a specific number of aircraft per nation, and not have every single aircraft put in there, that way whatever happens the online standard wont change and no-one will have problems, but you'll still be able to download the extra planes if you like. IP: Logged
weasel Pilot	posted 06-19- 01:01 PM Tough one. For what it is worth, here is my thoughts. How about separating the plane packs into specific date ranges. Early in the war we did not have corsairs or P-38J's or B-29's. weasel IP: Logged
Snickers Pilot	posted 06-19- 02:08 PM IF there are people willing to help me staff such an effort, and IF the community agrees to abide by the outcome (no I am not a dictator don't ever want to be - there would be no surprises. In fact I am only proposing this for love of the game.) We can find annother coordinator for the DIME project (though it runs quite well on its own so that may not be necessary...) I would be willing to step forward and grab the bull by the horns. In exchange, there must be a promise from the community. While this is in design, in work or whatever you want to call it, threads like this STOP (there will walways be grumblings but this is not a grumble). I already have contacts with many key people out there and if necessary I can get more. I would also expect members of the community to enforce that request on their own, because, quite frankly, I will be too busy to.... I am willing to take it on. Is the ENTIRE repeat ENTIRE community willing to back me/us? If not post it so I don't waste any time.... Snickers =FC= [This message has been edited by Snickers (edited 06-19-2001).] IP: Logged
Jeeves JAG	posted 06-19- 02:14 PM weasel---- I like that idea--- then in the game name online, you could just put the year or the battle or whatever-- may make online mission making easier too-- these are BoB missions, these are Eastern front missions, etc. I like it!! Snick--- As always- you have my support on this...I think you are insane to want to take it on...but you have my support--let me know if I can help ------------------ Brought to you by the campaign for a better Dauntless! Jeeves =FC= IP: Logged
Gecko Pilot	posted 06-19- 02:22 PM Himdog, spot on! The main problem with the current situation is that everything is stuffed into a single planepack, and that one sure is way too large. Couple this with nations, and the bloat is even bigger. First of all, may I suggest that the 'core' pack is formed just from the planes that were originally in SDOE as it was first released, but were later updated. This, and the latest patch (when properly tested), could represent the 'Patched' standard, so that the newbies aren't as confused, and not faced with 30 MB downloads the moment they decide to enter the community. The rest of the planes could be considered as 'Add-ons'. The Vehicles pack is in principle already a step in this direction, and can serve as an example. Basically, in this situation there wouldn't be a unique online standard (yet still a finite and small set of different ones), but since most of the regulars would have all the required packs, this shouldn't be too much of a problem. On newbie nights or similar, though, the basic 'Patched' standard could be enforced to ease the entry of new people in the sim. I may be completely off here, though. Let me know -Gecko =FC= IP: Logged
Da Jug head Pilot	posted 06-19- 02:25 PM Da Jug strips one of the waist .50's from the B-17 and stands next to Snick- if he takes this on and anyone blasts him they gotta get through me first Good enough visual pic Snick? I think you know where my vote goes ------------------ "Da Jug" FM question: Which end does the propeller thingy go on? Fighter Squadron Central ICQ: 121447410 IP: Logged
Da Jug head Pilot	posted 06-19- 02:35 PM People want more planes (B-26, P-51B, B-24, Dauntless, etc) People say SDOE is too fat. (Plants one foot in place and runs with the other- spinning in circles) Help me Mr. Wizard . . . . . IP: Logged
Snickers Pilot	posted 06-19- 02:40 PM Never fear Tutor Turtle, there ARE ways it can be accomodaded.... [This message has been edited by Snickers (edited 06-19-2001).] IP: Logged
Werner Molders JAG	posted 06-19- 03:17 PM Of course people want more planes, we've got gaps in our plane sets, but people are interested in different plane sets, thats the catch. I'm behind you 100% snick. Werner ------------------ Abbeville Field: Dedicated to the SDOE Experience. IP: Logged
wakeup tailgunner JAG	posted 06-19- 04:15 PM Snickers....Tailgunner is covering your back! You are one brave man to take this on, and I will back you 100% I reckon we should go for a 'basic 10' , a BOB addon, an Eastern front pack, a Pacific pack, and a Mediteranean pack ( for the Italians etc. ) Most of the planes we have fit into one or other of the categories, and if we can switch them on or off etc. then no problem. As long as the online guys know which pack is in use, then there should be no problem! I REALLY hope we can sort this out and get things positive around here again..... p.s. On the post tone, there are people arguing a point ( I don't have a problem with this ) but we also have had posts slagging off peoples work ( which I DONT like ) Nobody HAS to download stuff, the key to this problem is to allow people to play online with a small download if they don't want all the goodies. If we can get the choice back, we can flame the troll posters with a clear conscience ------------------ =V67= IP: Logged
Nat JAG	posted 06-19- 04:37 PM personaly, I honestly hate the idea of splitting the pack up like that, it would make things more complicated not less and cause more confusion online especialy for newbies it's like saying you now have 4 or so online standards instead of 1, oh you can't fly with us, were PTO online standard and you've only got Eastern Front, I see nothing but pain along that route. Just my thoughts put as I see it. IP: Logged
Werner Molders JAG	posted 06-19- 04:52 PM You know, Nat's got an excellent point there, I hadn't thought about that... WM ------------------ Abbeville Field: Dedicated to the SDOE Experience. IP: Logged
weasel Pilot	posted 06-19- 05:27 PM Ok. First of all, I will back Snickers 100% on whatever is decided. As far as confusion online: Somehow the patched version is given another area online. If we split the pack into earas or date ranges or theaters (whatever) could we isolate what the server lets us get into? Or could the files indicator (Blue light) be expanded to the different pack files? That way the newbee would know immediatly which pack is needed. Just some random thoughts. weasel IP: Logged
Nat JAG	posted 06-19- 05:35 PM I'm realy looking to try and make things simple, thats all, I've never thought that the online standard needs every single good standard aircraft in it, to me all it needs is a good base, a standard set of aircraft from each nation to allow easy and balanced play, other aircraft not in the packs can easily be downloaded seperately, but having a smaller base pack of selected aircraft from each nation would make things so much easier, these aircraft are the finished article and rarely ever need updating, meaning the plane pack wouldn't be forever changing, it would just need updating now and again when there are aircraft needing to be added to bring a nation upto it's pack limit, you could have as maney addon extra aircraft as you want, but everyone would have the same base pack, even if say you have an aircraft thats not in the base pack, and the other guy online with you hasn't got it, you simply pick a base pack mission and everyones happy, so much easier and simpler to use and we get away from this rapidly growing monster pack and at the same time have aircraft from each nation in 1 pack allowing for balanced missions. I'm sure that those longer standing members already know that I'm very passionate about this subject, but in the end, I hope people will see the simplicity and logic to a base pack rather than and ever growing all encompassing PP. To me the PP should always have been a set of aircraft that helps to stop mismatches and allow good balanced mission online with as little fuss as possible, and thats all I want to create, certainly not something that makes things even more complex than they already are. As always, this is just my opinion on the matter, but I would hope that more could see the simple and easily workable logic behind it. ~Nat~ IP: Logged
Snickers Pilot	posted 06-19- 05:37 PM Good one weasel!!! One that appears in the lobby screen next to the game being created... (If the pack is split, and Im making NO judgements or decisions until some of those helping go back through old forum posts and dig up alternatives already discussed.) at least that would help show what is needed before you get into the setup screen. Want to help EMAIL ME!!! [This message has been edited by Snickers (edited 06-19-2001).] IP: Logged
Nat JAG	posted 06-19- 05:40 PM but weasle, that poor newbie now knowing he hasn't got the pack he needs, then has to go through finding it, installing it, sorting out and cockups along the way ect, isn't going to feel good about not being able to fly because he thought he had the online standard, just to find he's has, but it's not the right one. Again, thats making things more complicated, hell, look at some of the recent posts, they can't handle a single plane pack let alone more IP: Logged
weasel Pilot	posted 06-19- 05:46 PM Nat, I agree with you on the base pack. I have only flown the corsair once or twice online and the WWI pack only about 3 times. The base could be there for all and after the newbees become oldbees they could add additional packs. As far as the plane pack being for online only, I dissagree. It has always been a measure of quality for me. You plane builders are exelent at what you do and I feel better about flying a plane that has passed the "Pack Standard". Could we have a Base Pack (for online everyone) and additional planes in extra packs. That way the oldbees could fly them online also (like the WWI Pack). weasel IP: Logged
Nat JAG	posted 06-19- 05:52 PM I know that the plane pack has always been used as a "standard Bearer", but I think we need to get away from that, the size of the pack is daunting enough already, and I know there must be anouther 15 aircraft currently in build, if they were PP standard that would increase PP size by around 30mb, Yes it's "hurtful" if your plane doesn't make it into the pack, but thats because we're artists and very vein lol, if we got away from the mentality of "plane pack is good" then we could move forward in a more logical manner IMO IP: Logged
Jerry Pilot	posted 06-19- 05:55 PM Frankly I don't think the size of a pak or the number of unique paks is the problem. If you cut to the core of the current confusion, the problem is WHICH pak? We have 6.0 and 6.1 and having 2 causes confusion and frustration online. What happens when we get different versions of PTO, ETO, Med, etc. or diferent versions of USA, UK, Russia, France, Aust. etc.? The problem is having more than one version of a pak used extensively at the same time. IMO. We just need a better definition of online standard and stick to it. Beta paks should be tested by a select group before general release. Anything that's not the online standard should be considered a beta. And only the online standard should be available for general release. Braveheart did say one thing that makes sense - K.I.S.S.! IP: Logged
Archer Pilot	posted 06-19- 06:06 PM Nat!!!! BINGO! Everyone listen to the man please. I fly online only and this is the cure. Personally I don't really care if I have more than just a few plane choices. Keep it simple. 1. Have the base plane pack. 2. Have seperate plane packs for each nation. 3. Give the ability to download a single plane, if the missions get boring with the base pack, nothing prevents the flyers from downloading a new plane for a war. Snickers you are a STUD! Let's see you got the front cover, your tail covered, OK! I got your wing! ------------------ Archer ^I^ IP: Logged
Braveheart Pilot	posted 06-19- 06:16 PM Thank you Himdog. Hindsight being 20/20 I think I may have worded some of my original topic poorly but I still stand by the main idea of what I was trying to say. This issue needed to be addressed and if I was to be the Judas then so be it. It's good to see that some waves have been created and that people are talking about this. Thank you to all those who understand what I tried to do! IP: Logged
ArgonV Pilot	posted 06-19- 06:18 PM The WWI Plane Pack is no different in setup than the WW2 Plane Pack. The only differnce is theres WAY less planes in it than WW2. The only other major difference is that there has ben MUCH MUCH testing of the WWI Test Pack 2. TESTING IS THE KEY! MANY MANY bugs have ben ironed out because of it... And many things have ben fixed or tweaked or added. Also there is just mainly one person who is doing the final tweaking to all the aircraft, me! Now Im not the "evil dictator" of the WWI Plane Pack 2, just the head of it. I put out what I have, and get feedback on what I need to fix and do it. SIMPLE! No confusion and no uncomplete betas! Of course there are still one or two things that I havent gotten the final versions of, but those will be tested aswell when I do get them. Therefor when I do release the WWI Plane Pack 2, all the planes will have an equal chance and no plane will be too uber or too err.. umm... unter. And all will be pretty much complete. When the WWI Plane Pack gets REAL big (The final one is already around 30 megs with 22 aircraft) I honestly dont know what Im going to do with it to keep it simple... But luckily we havent gotten there YET. I may just split it all up and you can download it a piece at a time at your own pace instead of all of it at one LONG sitting. IP: Logged
Pachy Pilot	posted 06-19- 06:36 PM I'm a really worried about cutting the standard. That may sound like a good idea (that's what EAW does), but there are difficult questions. My first concern is that it will somewhat divide the community. Suppose I play mostly Early stuff, I won't fly with the Pacific guys anytime soon. Maybe tomorrow they will have their own forum. Of course SDOE handles multiple installs very well so it might be doable to have several online setups at the same time. Then there are practical questions about sub-pack organization. What sub-pack does the Bf.190E belong to? Early war? Mediterranean? Eastern? All of the above? I want to play a mission historically located during Torch. What sub-pack do I need? I need the Wildcat: it's in Pacific. I need the D.520: it's in Early War. I need the Seafire: it's in Mediterranean. It has been said only a reduced set will be standard. What defines this plane set? The original plane set does not help at all since it is totally inconsistent (ie Spit MkV, 1941 plane with P-51B, 1945 plane) About putting a limited number of planes per country. Well, do you really want no more german than, say Polish planes? I'm not totally opposed to cut down the standard, but why can't we clean the PP a bit first? Let us remove planes that never existed, never saw combat, or creations that are not maintained anymore. And planes the the AI can't fly, it is a good test of how "finished" the plane is. We will have to make those difficult choices anyway, not because of the download size, but because there seems to be some limit to the number of planes we can add (remember the mysterious mission editor bug?) IP: Logged
Bryan Russell Pilot	posted 06-19- 06:48 PM Well, I'll just wade in with my offerings from the "patch team" Firstly, the parfile count is up to 32 in the patch if that helps any, it can also go up if that's a requirement. Would something like a file send for mis-matched files help? There may be logistical problems (i.e. the files take too long to transfer) but technically its not that difficult. Do we want the patch games to be in the 1.5 Lobby? This is very simple ( I think ), but I don't know the implications. If someone who wants to test this can e-mail me I can create a test version based off 1.5.2.9. I may have time to do some of these things after we get to our first WWW development milestone ------------------ Wings with Wires Go here for info about the Unofficial Patch IP: Logged
Snickers Pilot	posted 06-19- 07:01 PM Good one weasel!!! An indicator that appears in the lobby screen next to the game being created... (If the pack is split, and Im making NO judgements or decisions until some of those helping go back through old forum posts and dig up alternatives already discussed. Right now, things are nebulus(sp?) I want to have some people go through old posts and let me know what the different ideas were. I suspect the answer is in there as a compromise or hybrid.... Braveheart, PSI, coould you help me please? Search the back posts, and cut and past them into an email to me.... (Let me know if you cant but you guys are my first choice...) Yes Bryan, I also suspect we will need you involved as well.... I will be emailing you... Want to help??? EMAIL ME!!! IP: Logged
weasel Pilot	posted 06-19- 07:23 PM 1. Yellow light - mission file 2. Blue light - Base Pack - Nat's flavor 3. Blue light - WWI Pack 4. Blue light - Pacific Pack ? 5. Blue light - European Pack ? 6. Blue light - "Gaziffa" Pack ? 7. Green light - Ready to fly The mission chosen will be determined by the Blue lights that everyone has turned on. Nat's ideas on the Base Pack is good but I would like to see the number of the major players expaneded just a little. For example, the US has the B17, B25, Liberator, and B29. All just awsome and how could you decide? weasel Am I crazy? How can we put 7 lights where there are only 3 now??? Man, am I a weasel! IP: Logged
Himdog Pilot	posted 06-19- 08:04 PM Nat is right on a base pack, what goes in it, don't know yet but it's a step in the right direction. It should be the only online standard anyone should need. If someone doesn't have Plane Pack X, then the host should switch to a standard online mission. The people I have flown online with are great people and I'm sure they would switch to a standard online mission with no problem. But I also know we live in a real world and sometimes it gets into SDOE. So maybe a better way to handle things would be in order, I really don't know. I just think the way SDOE is going, it'll just become too big and push people away. With all the new stuff coming out and all, who knows what is going to happen with this sim? Snickers, you have mail. ------------------ 7./JG3_Himdog out www.luftwaffe.net IP: Logged
Nat JAG	posted 06-19- 08:19 PM will people find a reason to comoplain about the planes included or not included, hell yeah, fully expected, but, we're taling about making this easier for the great majority, and as Himdog says, almost all of us wouldn't blink an eye at changing to a "standard" mission, on the other hand, take a look at it from a newbies point of view, or just someone that doesn't have one of the planes being used, it'll take you 5/10 mins to download the one you want to use that night, rather than a couple of days if you need the plane pack, I'm 100% looking at keeping this simple, everyone will still have the option to downlaod the othewr aircraft either as single planes or even in a pack form, but the thing is the base pack will provide a good set of historicaly matching aircraft for any and all to have fun with, after all, I'm only talking about a base set of standard aircraft, that doesn't mean you can't use others, thats purely down to you, but for someone just jumping online for a flight and fight they have no worries about do I need this, do I need that, all you need is the base pack, keeping it small will keep things simple for those that want it that way, if you want though you can make it as complicated as you like, but lets be straight about this, look at the recent posts, our plane packs as they stand right now realy aren't working well are they, for alot of us yes, but equaly alot of people just can't get their heads around them and dump the game, quiet simply it doesn't have to be that way. IP: Logged
Psi Pilot	posted 06-19- 11:03 PM Nat "will people find a reason to comoplain about the planes included or not included, hell yeah, fully expected," How can they if the theater their in is historically correct. Great stuff here guys and I don't think it will cause a death of a daughter theater nor the death of SDOE. Granted there will be theaters that are more popular than others but as an example I give you WWI. I have no interest in WWI stuff (no disrespect) but hell you can't say it isn't popular just because I don't play it. And who's to say that a new guy won't want to have all the theaters of operation, I'll bet no one can resist to get them all. And if we dice them it will give the individual the opportunity to "dink" with it and decide where he/ wants to play. This is the type of thinking that moves stuff to the front of the line, and it will. I like damn near all that I've read here and I see it as a step forward. I said step, lets not run with scissors. Snick, can you be a little more specific as to what you want me to look for, I'd be glad to help you, anytime MF (My Friend ) P IP: Logged
Da Jug head Pilot	posted 06-19- 11:19 PM I guess one thing to keep in mind is that I'm collecting links to all of the planes not in the pack. In addition Razor has offered to host any files. Between the 2 we can make it where, if someone doesn't have the plane needed for a mission, he can go to the index, click on the link and get the plane. The index can be set up with an "On Line compatible" section. What this would do is make sure, if an aircraft is updated and still being tested, someone downloads the older version everyone else has, instead of grabbing the latest update that hasn't completed testing. It would be simple to add a line saying "Link to aircraft index, go here and bookmark this apge as you may need it for some online missions." Ron, have you seen the on-line tutorial I wrote, the getting started page on my site, and/or the links to tutorials and instructions? If not, check it out and let me know what you think. The link is in my signature. ------------------ "Da Jug" =V67= FM question: Which end does the propeller thingy go on? Fighter Squadron Central ICQ: 121447410 IP: Logged
Khadgar Cadet	posted 06-19- 11:37 PM Ok I was wondering if somthing like this would work... Lots of developers on Mac use the installing app Installer VISE (I think thats the name) I think it may be PC too. Couldn't you have a set up like many Mac sites do. The client downloads a 200k installer app. When the applications is open it automaticly searches the special server which has all the files, and downloads the newest version of everything, the client can run this anytime they want and they do not have to download a new install app whenever they want to check for update, it also supports the ability to skip files that are not wanted and also includes download resuming for 56kers. mb you already have a better solution...just an idea, -{mAc}Khadgar IP: Logged

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