3D or not to 3D, that is the question....

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Author	Topic: 3D or not to 3D, that is the question....
Razer Pilot	posted 05-21- 11:46 AM What are we going to do about 3D props? The cool 3D props on the P-51B kills any hope of the solid prop many have grown to love. I've had a few other guys but they don't look as good as the current 3D props. If the 3D props is something we really don't need now i'll remove it from the P-51B before the beta release. (which has been delayed due to an FM/DM problem) What do you guys think about it? ------------------ Tony "Razer" Martin Brought to you by the Campaign for a better Pacific. FS Hangar IP: Logged
li'l bastard Pilot	posted 05-21- 11:50 AM IMHO they rule!!! I tried the beta guys and I swear it's great! Wish we could make this a standard... li'l b IP: Logged
Da Wing Waxer Pilot	posted 05-21- 12:35 PM Can it be made an option? Or would this screw up on-line compatibility? Is there someway to make the strobe effect visible only from outside the cockpit? It does look fantastic when you're outside the plane. Strobing props when sitting in the cockpit are one of my (and several other people's) pet peeves. The only reason they strobe in movies is cuz of the difference in the frame rate on the cameras and the RPM of the prop. [This message has been edited by Da Wing Waxer (edited 05-21-2001).] IP: Logged
Razer Pilot	posted 05-21- 01:21 PM It would srew up Online since the new version looks for all SM files to be the same. I can make it only be 3D outside the cockpit and have nothing visile from in the cockpit. If that is what we all want. [This message has been edited by Razer (edited 05-21-2001).] IP: Logged
ArgonV Pilot	posted 05-21- 01:25 PM I HATE clear perfect rotating props! Even the props in real life have some texture and a slight strobe effect when they turn... IP: Logged
Commando Pilot	posted 05-21- 02:00 PM The next patch release will make the file matching optional, my guess is it will be turned off most of the time, hence no probs with a 3d prop release. IP: Logged
Snickers Pilot	posted 05-21- 02:26 PM I think everyone knows where I stand on this, but just for grins... If you inpliment something in the sim that prevents someone else from playing then you need to think twice (and maybe three times) about doing it. Guys I cannot tell you enough that there are people out there (myself included) who have been denied the ability to fly a real plane because of a medical condition. Now you want to introduce something that will prevent me from flying a sim?!? Not only NO But F**K NO!!! Are you so entrhralled with such a marginal thing (how often are you really going to see it other that sitting on the tarmac?) that you would exclude players????? I am extremely disturbed by this. (If you don't think so, check all my previos posts on any topic and look at the language I use, or rather don't use.... Except in this one.) Take a clue. IP: Logged
li'l bastard Pilot	posted 05-21- 02:43 PM hey snick, I'm sorry for that man, but I don't think nobody want to screw u out the game... The idea of the option seems to be the right one, what do ya think, guys? Btw, I prolly didn't read up there, but how comes u won't be able to play if this feature is enabled? li'l b IP: Logged
Jeeves JAG	posted 05-21- 02:54 PM Think about it lil B... Strobing effects can cause people to have seizures--whether they are epileptic or not. One of my friends who doesn't have epilepsy had a pretty bad seizure a few years back due to this type of thing...I think it is a very real thing to be considerate of-- there are more people in this community with this type of problem then you may think. Options would be great-- but if that avenue cause mismatches- then I say No to strobing... ------------------ Brought to you by the campaign for a better Dauntless! Jeeves =FC= IP: Logged
Sv JAG	posted 05-21- 03:25 PM The real solution to this problem is in the works, we just need a better idea of how it should be implemented. What we want to do is allow the aircraft designer to be able to create "optional" SM references - so the user could chose to personalize... this way the aircraft author can allow for things like high quality cockpits, etc. This was the intention all along... the only reason we closed the security hole was because it was easy to do while fixing the airFoil mis-matching code. At the very least, extra pedantic matching will be an option for the host in the next patch ------------------ -Sv Wings with Wires IP: Logged
Nat JAG	posted 05-21- 03:27 PM I personaly have used 3D props, I think they look much much better, the Mig looks great with a fully 3D fast prop, as standard it will be released with that, but maybe I will have to look at having a choice of an invisible fast prop IP: Logged
Psi Pilot	posted 05-21- 03:45 PM I personally like the 3D prop and the strobe, but Jeeves does and does not have a point, with all due respect. An epileptic seizure can occure for a person that have epilepsy (or otherwise) from the 60 cycle strobe of the monitor alone. But before I get to involved with stepping on toes, Jeeves is right about having it be an option for those inclined to have seizures. Personal note; I really like them and would like to have the option to use them, peace my brothaa's... P IP: Logged
Jeeves JAG	posted 05-21- 04:12 PM Peace Out ------------------ Brought to you by the campaign for a better Dauntless! Jeeves =FC= IP: Logged
Psi Pilot	posted 05-21- 04:21 PM LMAO IP: Logged
jedi Pilot	posted 05-21- 05:24 PM IMO being able to see your own prop "strobing" from the inside is both somewhat unrealistic (although you usually CAN see SOME indication of motion) and messes up gun aiming. OTOH, being able to see it on the OTHER guy's plane and on your own from the external view looks REALLY cool, just like a movie. Even if that's not totally "realistic," it still matches up to what almost all of us "relate to" when you see it--the movies and films you've seen of warbirds. Seems to me that, with some clever use of the switchin distances, you could have a prop disk that is "easy on the eyes" from your own cockpit, and yet looks great on the other planes around you or from your own external view. I think all this would require would be to use a separate .lod for the "close-in" prop and the "slightly farther away" prop. Most of the cockpit models do this. The cockpit you're "sitting in" is very detailed, but the cockpit you see from the external view is less detailed. Make the 3D prop switch to a "standard" prop when you view it from the cockpit. You can't really see that it's 3D anyway from that angle... An alternative would be to have someone who understands how the spinning prop .tifs work design one that shows SOME motion from inside the cockpit, without having "excessive" strobing occur. Even within the existing plane set, there are some planes that have "reasonable" prop motion, and some that are, well...annoying. For one thing, several of the props actually interfere with your ability to aim (especially with the view zoomed in), and I reckon that's pretty unrealistic... ------------------ --jedi-- [This message has been edited by jedi (edited 05-21-2001).] [This message has been edited by jedi (edited 05-21-2001).] IP: Logged
Jerry Pilot	posted 05-21- 06:00 PM I've seen so many prop variations, (fast, slow, strobing, discs, 2D, 3D, standard, custom, etc.) could someone post both internal and external views of the different choices so the rest of us know what you're talking about? Thanks IP: Logged
li'l bastard Pilot	posted 05-21- 06:33 PM D'HO!!!! Sorry, didn't think aobut that.... li'l b IP: Logged
li'l bastard Pilot	posted 05-21- 06:39 PM i'm very sorry... Sorry Snick... didn't mean to offend u, but I really couldn't get it... li'l b IP: Logged
Private Roger Pilot	posted 05-21- 07:35 PM I am pleased to hear again that many of the cockpit enhancements that some choose to use, and others not will no longer be a source of concern with mismatches online. I'm personally all about options. What one person hates, another most likey loves. So let's make as many things optional as we can without mucking up the works. Prop strobing doesn't bother me unless I've had a case of beer. Then I get light headed, my speech becomes slurred, and I stagger when I walk. PR=FC= [This message has been edited by Private Roger (edited 05-21-2001).] IP: Logged
Nat JAG	posted 05-21- 07:36 PM OK, here's what the Mig-3 3D Fastprop looks like, pics aren't a good example because the prop is spinning so fast from front on, or the pit view it forms an almost complete circle, from the side angles though you see that there is thinkness to the spinning prop and also that it's 3 parts and not a single flat circle. Sorry aboutt he size of the pics, but this way they actualy use less kb. [This message has been edited by Nat (edited 05-21-2001).] IP: Logged
Snickers Pilot	posted 05-21- 08:16 PM Nat - Looks great, (except the last one ). l'il B - No offense taken (especially as none was given I made a choce 38 years ago between keeping quite about it or developing a thick skin and talking about it. You would be surprised at the number of the people out there who won't say word one out of fear (I kid you not...). PR - I am all for options too. IF they are truly options. Only the view from behind at a close distance (from inside the cockpit) needs to be non-strobing. Other than that, do it! (Besides, I use it as a ranging cue... When I am persuit, and I can beginto see you prop strob, hehehe.... ------------------ Snickers =FC= IP: Logged
Nat JAG	posted 05-21- 08:50 PM I'm thinking the best answer is as Jedi has said, a lower LOD that only cuts in from the cockpit, it done properly you will get some color to show it's there, but only notice prop movement and not the strobing effect IP: Logged
nealg Pilot	posted 05-21- 10:07 PM Ok, honest opinion here - I don't see anything there to shout about. Why even have props visible? That has nothing to do with anyone who is or is not made unable to use the game because of it - I just don't see where it makes the plane respond any better when you move the stick, or rudders, or pull a trigger. In fact, a complete no-cockpit view would not in the least detract from my enjoyment of SDOE, so whether or not the prop is even visible at all is a matter of indifference to me. If you are looking for a vote, I say leave it off...or make it a option to turn off that won't affect online compatibility in any form. Just .02. In most prop sims, the props are just in my way anyhow. ------------------ nealg=FC= IP: Logged
Razer Pilot	posted 05-21- 10:35 PM Damn, i post this and I really didn't want to cause a problem. Nat, it looks like we both took our ideas from IL-2. I'm going to setup another idea tomorrow and see how it looks. I'm just wondering how to go about this since I love the 3D prop that's on the B but I know some wont. IP: Logged
Da Wing Waxer Pilot	posted 05-21- 11:30 PM Nat's on the right track. Bear with me, here goes the technical explanation. The view from the cockpit should be some kind of blur to indicate motion. Somethng between Tails real prop's and the Yak's transparent disk. If the view from the cocpit would allow the mapping of a tif with an alpha channel that fit's the users preference this would be great. There is a VERY slight strobe effect on a prop, most expereinced pilots will tell you you can't see it, but I did (and I had to look for it). I think they mentally shut it out after a while. However the difference in transparency between the "strobe" and the rest of the disc created by the spinning prop is so little as to be hardly noticeable. As far as strobing props on other aircraft you can see goes, there is grounds for this. In the P-40 pilots manual it tells a pilot how to match speeds with the flight leader when his airspeed indicator dies. The idea is to look through his prop blades at the leaders prop. The difference in speeds creates a strobe effect. The pilot is then supposed to jockey his throttle until the strobe created by the visual overlap becomes stationary. At that point he knows he's matched speeds. I think strobing props when outside the plane is perfectly fine, and Razer's 3D props are the best I've seen in any sim- period. Although strobing props viewed from inside the cockpit are not realistic, if a user wants them because he likes them, it would be nice to have the option to just change tif's for the inside view. Psi- about 60 Hz monitors- they basically don't exist anymore unless you have one synched for doing video work. Monitors are now designed to run at a frequency that does not match a visible harmonic of either incandescant or flourescent lights. Most of the flickering was caused by the interlacing of the video signal which has been done away with on all but the cheapest monitors. The problem you listed was one of the reasons- eyestrain and headaches were some of the other reasons. A few mullti-sync monitors that can be used for video can be stepped down to that frequency, but they are usually used by video professionals now. (Old Amiga users like me are VERY familiar with this issue). Razer- you're the 3D prop guru- is something like this possible? I'd still like to have them visible from outside the cockpit, cuz like Nat, l'il b and Psi said- they are COOL. IP: Logged
Nat JAG	posted 05-22- 01:31 AM Yup yuour right Tony, lets be honest, visualy IL-2 is setting the standard just from seeing their pics, so I'm doing my damnest to match it as best we're able with Open Plane, I know we can't match it, but geting close will keep me happy. The prop above is my 3rd and final version, a cylinder with weges cut out to leave whats similar to 3 wide flat props, then selecting the verts I put the twist to it to form the same shape as a normal prop, giving it the form from side on, but like I said above, this gear ration and RPM make this prop spin so fast from head on or in the pit it realy does look circular. What I'm thinking is I'll add a new LOD to it, a normal flat circular one, with a few TMapping tricks I should be able to give the appearance of movement without it actualy strobing, but when viewed externaly the 3D prop will be shown (unless you realy zoom in) getting the switchins right will be annoying though Infact.. I've just realised how to do it the best way OK Tony, if you wanna try having a flat one from in the pit, the best way is obviously to have a different texture, but we can't do that right now, so what I'm going to do is give the fast prop a tiny little LOD that you wont see, but make a normal flat prop with a new texture, I'll attach the new one to the fast prop and have it switch out realy early. At that same distance I'll have the 3D prop switch from the tiny LOD to the normal one, this way I can use 2 prop textures and have everything working happily together... or so I reckon LOL IP: Logged
Eyes Pilot	posted 05-24- 06:08 AM I agree with Jeeves 114% on this ! If the 3d props cause online mismatches, it is useless to have them unless someone does not fly online ! If the 3d props do not cause online mismatches, then leave it optional to have them or not... Snickers, we all know what kind of person you are, we all are aware of your sportmanship and great attitude... Reading your post I was deeply touched by it... don't worry Snicks, this community wont let a person like you down... --------------- Eyes=FC= IP: Logged
UNGL�CKSRABE Cadet	posted 05-24- 11:21 AM "The next patch release will make the file matching optional, my guess is it will be turned off most of the time, hence no probs with a 3d prop release." Mein Gott! What the heck was wrong with the normal file matching? Listening to three years of complaints of SDOE I never once heard anything negitive about the matching system. Unlike CFS2 and the like, Cheating in SDOE is a non-issue because of the wonderful matching system. So please correct me if I am wrong but this option would kill the normal matching that we have now as well? or just the extra matching the patch for some crazy reason has? I am sure there is a good reason I just don't see it. If it ant broke don't fix it. IP: Logged
Werner Molders JAG	posted 05-24- 11:29 AM Ungluck/Shark - you've misunderstood -> the patch-induced file matching takes SDOE's already rock solid anti cheat mechanisms to the next level, so much so that you can mismatch on silly things like a different prop (3d or not 3d). I've even seen people mismatch on their gunsights, when the only difference is texture. WM ------------------ Visit Abbeville Field Today! IP: Logged
Eyes Pilot	posted 05-24- 11:52 AM Well said Werner ! IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 05-25- 01:00 AM Anything that'll keep Snickers flying is fine by me TS IP: Logged
Snickers Pilot	posted 05-25- 09:25 AM Tail - You just don't want me to toss the P38 back in your direction (Much shuffling of feet) Serioulsy thanks.. Snick IP: Logged
UNGL�CKSRABE Cadet	posted 05-25- 09:27 PM I can't believe I am here on a friday clearing this up. I am ok with the crazy matching the patch has even though Its a pain and not really a step up from a system that has worked like a champ for 3 years. Better matching but no real gain. I could care less if they have the ubersight2001 as long as thier planes fly the same as mine do. What I am concerned about is an option to strip away that protection. But with all the well saids no one answered my question which was the heart of the matter. So because people are having trouble seeing my main thrust here it is in easy to read caps. I HOPE TO NEVER SEE PEOPLE GIVEN THE CHOICE TO STRIP THE FM MATCHING PROTECTION. My question was wether giving people a choice to turn it off would only turn off all mismatching or just the ::cough:: new and improved matching. But I do thank you for your well said words that had nothing to say about my question. Why do I feel like this is Washington lol. I ask a question that will probably decide whether this game is worth having on the harddrive in the near furture to some and it gets talked around with backup from people saying good job lol. If anyone is offended by my wonderful posts that are full of love then please do meet me in the skys. I love being a target. More of a challege the better. This hopefully will be my last post. Letting people disable FM matching...wow talk about a step backwards if that happens. Haha it would probably bring an influx of KewL DoOdz flyers if word gets out lol, thank goodness I would have the sanity to leave again. I think I am done posting about issues here since it is near pointless. ( I should have learned during the "new download if you want to fly each night madness"...people really don't give a flip on how their changes effect online. To think I didn't even jump PR in starting to head that direction again...download the 38F download the Val...haha once the patch is online standerd don't expect me to jump through those rings) downloading things that are not online std should never be required to play online...yet I smell it on the wind and have seen the charnage left in the wake of the plane pack planes and 109s and zeros. Get your shots in free. For I am done posting about anything that may set me off just makes me look like an ass I know lol. take care all and come out of your holes and shoot me down alot lol. IP: Logged
jedi Pilot	posted 05-25- 10:06 PM Well, without the "new" file matching, there ARE a few ways to cheat (no, I won't tell you how) but presumably if you suspected someone of cheating all you'd have to to is turn the "rigorous" file matching back on for the next sortie. If the "suspect" magically disappears, well, it would suck to be him The new system is somewhat draconian, IMO, but I thought they were also building in a system where the plane builder could set up optional parts using the detail slider? ------------------ --jedi-- IP: Logged

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