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Author
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Topic: Messerschmitt 109e
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Dean
Pilot
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posted 05-04- 08:02 PM
   
Does anyone have any AUTHENTIC references to takeoff when flying a real Bf109e (and f&g variants as well ) as the SDOE models go haywire , veering almost uncontrollably to the left after reaching about 50mph.
A ww2 pilot looked at the 109 on my computer and felt that it was over-reacting and worse than the real thing ever was.
I'm aware of torque effects, has anyone got any Luftwaffe pilot comments on take off in these machines as I've not been able to find anything specific as in how much rudder was needed etc.
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Dinga
Pilot
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posted 05-04- 09:40 PM
Hi Dean
Good to see you back on the message board not many of us Kiwis around here 
Sorry I do not have any pilot notes for Bf109s.I did however just try takeoff.The take off instruction on the K model seem to be the way to attempt a good take off manouvre.Im using a Side winder Precision Pro and there is a bit of swing on takeoff on the E Model more on the K.However I did not experience any thing vicious.
Try this set up Dean.
1 Start engine let idle for abit
2 Wind down 20 degree flap(one notch)and release brakes.
3) Slowly open the throttle to around 70 percent
4) At just over 100 Km tail will rise no forward elevator input required.
5) Full righthand rudder as soon as she swings to the left.Main tain Rudder input as required.
6) At 220 kms ease stick back if needed although she will become airbourne on her own.
I realise everyone has different ideas on these things but this setup works for me.
BTW Dean would you be interested in helping out with NZ nations project? Dinga
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Dean
Pilot
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posted 05-04- 10:50 PM
hello and nice to see there's another kiwi pilot on here :-)
Firstly, what is a Sidewinder precision pro ?
I'm just using the Bf 109's as supplied in PP6 .
All 3 versions pull to the left as the tail lifts ....which I would expect, but become almost uncontrollable , continuing to turn to port even with full starboard rudder at only 50 mph, at 30% throttle.Then when it responds to the rudder, it usually ends up dragging a wing in a hard starboard turn, by this time losing speed and will eventually end up in a circle dragging one wing at about 15 mph.Not a very convincing takeoff.Once the tail is up it should respond to rudder not just ignore it. It would be interesting to find any comments regarding handling characteristics of these aircraft from people who flew them in wartime situations . ------------------
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Psi
Pilot
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posted 05-05- 01:01 AM
Dean,I was at one time new to SDOE and was comfortable with my experience, then one day some of the JG guys told me how much better the Axis aircraft was and convinced me to try the "G"
Well I can't tell you how long I spent on the (and around) the airbase trying to get that pile of crap off the ground. I was not happy and I thought if these are the best I would hate to see the worst! All these guys took off around me without a hitch, but I couldn't even get it to go in a straight line. I finally gave up cursing (as I remember) and quit for the day. None of us really know how these planes flew, some were tricky and some were out and out deadly. These guys model these planes base on the mathematics provided by the physics that are documented from actual dimentions of every A/C. When I first flew the rebuilt P-51 it was really tough for me and I thought this is not accurate (how do I know) Especially after flying the 51 that came in the orginal PP of the original 10 of SDOE. Reciently my neighbor got a new computer and was always interested in FS and asked if I would load it on his system for him, no problem. Well to make a long story longer, I first tried the P-51 (a plane that was the easiest for me when the sim first came out) and I couldn't even fly it. I now can get the 109 off the ground and can fly most all the A/C in the game. It's like the real thing! If your good and have the ability and the experience you can accomplish any A/C here. But it takes time and experience to become and ace in FS, this is a good thing. Are you really going to stay with a sim that you can instantly get her up, shoot down five A/C and land the bitch like first grade spelling bee? I don't think so... All due respect to your WWII vet and I MEAN THAT!!! If he flew the 109 then I'd be inclined to say this is credible. If you read articles about even differing US A/C you will find that some of the P-47 pilots washed out of programs that involved the P-51, because they simply could not fly it after the 47. It is all based on the experience you have and the hours that you've spent it that particular aircraft. Believe me when I say I DO know what you're saying, hang in there I been here for a long time and there are guys that are new that shoot the crap out of me in planes that I know. Simply stated on any given day (as in WWII) you could die on the runway or die in the sky, and if you were real lucky you touched her down and had a hot meal that night, you decide  P IP: Logged |
Psi
Pilot
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posted 05-05- 01:16 AM
Ya sure I could have made it look like you guys do with all that proper paragraphing and spaces and stuff, but I didn't, and I'm really happy with the "clump" effect 
P
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Dinga
Pilot
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posted 05-05- 02:48 AM
Dean
A Precision Pro is a fairly common all garden Stick from Microsoft.I would agree whole heartedly with you PSI.Well said.That man deserves a DB
When I use opposite rudder the Aircraft will respond but in your case no effect .Take a look around in out side view do a preflight and make sure your rudder is working.I found coupling steering to rudder under input helped as this is basically how tail draggers are set up.Dinga [This message has been edited by Dinga (edited 05-05-2001).] [This message has been edited by Dinga (edited 05-05-2001).] IP: Logged |
Dean
Pilot
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posted 05-05- 04:54 AM
I've flown the 109 for about a year, just wanted to hear what Luftwaffe pilots had to say about it......I found a videotaped interview with an Me 109 ace , his words are that the aircraft was very sensitive, and imediately the tail left the ground you had to give full rudder to counter the torque effect .. this says it all :-)I found I could avoid trouble by giving a little right rudder just prior to the tail lift.
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Dinga
Pilot
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posted 05-05- 06:24 AM
Your right there a little rudder before tail lifts does help.Still I really like the way these Messersmits climb. Good rate of climb.The landing for me is the real challenge and when you get a greaser it feels good.I would be interested to kmow more if you have a different approach Ive tried closing the throttle on final but that was a big nono as you write off the undercarriage.You need to keep the power on just a little before touchdown as mentioned in the notes, then open her up for another circuit, choice but you have to be careful not to use full power as you might find yourself staring at the runway Cheers
Dean
ps sorry I did'nt know you flew this type for so long mabe we could go online sometime soon?
[This message has been edited by Dinga (edited 05-05-2001).] IP: Logged |
Dinga
Pilot
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posted 05-05- 06:37 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dinga:
[B]Your right there a little rudder before tail lifts does help.Still I really like the way these Messersmits climb. Good rate of climb.The landing for me is the real challenge and when you get a greaser it feels good.I would be interested to kmow more if you have a different approach Ive tried closing the throttle on final but that was a big nono as you write off the undercarriage.You need to keep the power on just a little before touchdown as mentioned in the notes, then open her up for another circuit, choice but you have to be careful not to use full power as you might find yourself staring at the runway Cheers
Dean
ps sorry I did'nt know you flew this type for so long mabe we could go online sometime soon?
[img]C:\Patch 1.8\FS_0001.bmp[/img] IP: Logged |
Dean
Pilot
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posted 05-05- 08:29 AM
Have you seen any of the 'Wings of the Luftwaffe' documentaries ? There's about an hour dedicated to the 109 and some excellent interviews with a couple of pilots, both aces, one with about 300 kills! I can't remember his name sorry, but he speaks about some of the short-comings of the machine and refers to the narrow undercarriage being tricky for beginners, and about landing difficulties. I use full flap and about 20% throttle for a soft landing, then when she's on the ground shut the throttle right back I use it for hit & run attacks, dive on the prey then get the hell out :-) in a tit for tat scrap with a Spit I think the latter has the advantage. I must admit , the 'butcher bird' is the nicest for takeoff, overall power, and clobbering ability :-)
I've never tried a ww2 encounter online! One thing thats wrong with SDOE aircraft is the ability to fly on full throttle as long as the fuel holds out, that's pretty tough on a real engine....they overheat! Maybe that could be added to a future upgrade? And the ability to feather props as well.... IP: Logged |
Psi
Pilot
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posted 05-05- 11:07 AM
Dean/Dinga,
I was reading and article a while back about the climb rate and the maneuverability of the 109 at high alt. This pilot was a Luftwaffe pilot and he stated exactly what you said; The climb rate was real decent and the maneuverability was very good. But down low it was a little unpredictable and pilots avoided this type of combat. Esp. against the Mustang. And between the Spit and the 109 it really depended on the pilot and just how good they were in their respective planes P IP: Logged |
JG3_Jetlag
Pilot
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posted 05-05- 01:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dean:
One thing thats wrong with SDOE aircraft is the ability to fly on full throttle as long as the fuel holds out, that's pretty tough on a real engine....they overheat! Maybe that could be added to a future upgrade? And the ability to feather props as well....
Engine management is needed badly in SDOE. I hope it can be added at some stage. You can already feather the props. Use SHIFT-5 to feather #1 engine, SHIFT-6 for #2 etc. And CTRL-5 to unfeather #1, CTRL-6 for #2 etc... Back to the original subject of this thread, the 109s have a very nice flight model in my opinion. Whether they are correct or not I don't know, but I love flying them from take off to landing. 1. Make sure you are stationary - don't short cut and start throttling up after turning onto the runway. 2. Use NO flaps. 3. Slowly increase throttle to 60% whilst... 4. Applying a gentle back pressure as you start to roll (I mean very light just enough to hold the tail down). 5. Do nothing else until you feel (see) the tail starting to lift and allow it to do so by releasing the slight back pressure. 6. As the tail rises gently and smoothly apply a little right rudder until the aircraft is steady down the runway. 7. Now, and only now, increase throttle slowly until take of speed is reached. 8. Apply light back pressure to lift off the runway - do not pull the stick too hard or the wing will drop to the left. IP: Logged |
JG3_Jetlag
Pilot
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posted 05-05- 01:19 PM
One other thing. If you don't have a dedicated rudder control (pedals or a twist-stick) and have the aileron controls linked to the rudder you will have difficulties taking off (check that this option isn't selected in the 'input' screen).IP: Logged |
Da Wing Waxer
Pilot
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posted 05-05- 04:39 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dean:
Does anyone have any AUTHENTIC references to takeoff when flying a real Bf109e (and f&g variants as well )
Go here, there's a downloadable version of the ME 109 pilot's notes, but you do have to pay for it.
http://www.aerobookcompany.com/pages/pilots_notes.html ------------------
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Which end does the propeller thingy go on?
(Formerly posted as Da Jug head) IP: Logged |
Psi
Pilot
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posted 05-05- 06:58 PM
Here is that quote, courtesy of tgplanes;SOME QUOTES ON THIS PLANE : " The 109 was not bad at diving, but the Thunderbolt was much better at diving. In climbing, if you compared it with the Mustang
and with the Spitfire, it depended on what height you started to climb. In the altitude between 5000 and 10000 meters , I think the
109 was much better at climbing than all the other types. The version of the 109 that I flew in 1944 and 1945 as a commander of
a high-cover fighter group of our FW 190s was a very good one at 8000 to 10000 meters, as it has a special engine for high
altitude, but it was very bad at low levels. Of course , it had a special tank for injections in the fuselage and so at a lower altitude
your turning radius was not so good as that of a normal 109 and not even as good as that of an FW 190. So we normally didnt t
attack Mustangs or Thunderbolts at low altitudes because it was bad for our type of aircraft." Luftwaffe General Walter Krupinski
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Dean
Pilot
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posted 05-06- 06:31 AM
testing Dr1 ------------------
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Razer
Pilot
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posted 05-06- 09:45 AM
something you guys might want to check and see if the 109's wheels are set to rubber. This really improves ground handling but was something most people left off.------------------
Tony "Razer" Martin
Brought to you by the Campaign for a better Pacific.
FS Hangar IP: Logged |
HeinzBaby
Cadet
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posted 05-06- 09:12 PM
Hiya Dean old' mate!
Most aircraft have some 'vice', the 109's have a lovely torque on takeoff..lol. Perhaps you may want to recalibrate your Joystick so the sensitiviy is'nt so great. I have a Microsoft sidewinder FFB stick, which was too damn sensitive until I was put on the right track and D/loaded a utlilty for my stick at: http://www.stickworks.com
I'm happy with everything that flies now, barn-storming SE5a's through Hangers are a buz.
regards HBIP: Logged |
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