posted 04-27- 07:14 AM               

The graphics and special effects I think are superb.

However, one little thing bothers me.

It's the flight models. They just seem awfully stable. After playing EAW, WB and BoB, the FM's in SDOE seem extremely tame. I can't get planes to spin.

posted 04-27- 09:59 AM               

EAW Suckz!

Planes don't have a real CoG.. I watched a 109 pivet from 5 feet behind the rudder!

it's way way WAY to easy to spin a plane is SDOE. Even planes that had pilots raving about them being to stable seem to just fall out of the air in EAW. FM's in SDOE are 400 times better since we have to cool engine and way better phyics.

posted 04-27- 01:29 PM            

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posted 04-27- 01:59 PM               

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posted 04-27- 05:37 PM               

I've mainly been flying the 190's and 109's. I also tried out the Spit 9 at someone's request.

After flinging the stick about a couple of times, I finally managed to induce a spin in the 109K.

I couldn't get the FW190A4, FW190A8 or Spit 9 to spin at all...I got them to stall but then the planes just went nose down and "auto-recovered". I dunno, maybe I missed something in the settings. I'll also try some other planes.

As for all the "EAW Sucks" comments...jeez, I didn't come to this forum to sing the praises of EAW over SDOE...I just brought EAW up (as well as WB and BoB) as a comparative yard-stick because I was wondering why I couldn't get the planes I've tried to spin. Most of the "responses" to my original question (which was NOT intended as a flame or a troll) could be summarized by "How dare you question the awesome might of SDOE - besides, EAW sucks" - gee, very helpful.

posted 04-27- 06:03 PM               

Are you sure you have your joystick sensativity settings all the way to the right? (Not the deadzone sliders)

posted 04-27- 08:20 PM               

I've managed to make certain planes spin but I really had to work at it.

Other planes, I just could not make spin even when I was yanking the stick about as if I were wrestling a python. I've tried fooling with the stick sensitivities but it hasn't changed the end result - I just can't make certain planes spin.

I have managed to put a Hurricane I into an irrecoverable spin which was rather soothing for the jangled nerves but the Spit 1a and Spit 9 refuse to spin which is counter-intuitive.

I don't know - I'm just going to leave things as is and just have fun with the sim.

posted 04-27- 11:42 PM               

Which joystick are you using and does it have a program that allows you to modify the sensitivity before you load a game?

posted 04-28- 02:51 AM               

However, whilst EAW a/c spin too easily, most SDOE a/c are *unnaturally* stable.Most of the a/c in the current SDOE planeset r practically spin proof.he above posts mention the 109.Historically speaking, the 109 was actually one plane that was quite difficult to spin.It had very gentle stall characyeristics, and stalls were generally extremely easy 2 recover from.Spins were actually quite rare in the 109, & again, recovery was relatively simple compared 2 other fighter types.So actually, the 109 in SDOE should be one of the few a/c that should be relatively difficult 2 spin, even purposely.

That said, u have SDOE a/c like the 190.TS has done fantastic work on the A-4.It has literally hundreds of hours worth of work done 2 it, & considering OP's current deficiencies (most notably the inability to model engine power vs alt) its performance is pretty much as close 2 real-world figures as possible.Handling, however, is nowhere near as good, but that is not TS's fault.The 190A-4 is practically spin proof, and stalls r very innocuous.Compare that 2 the historical 190 that suffered from an inordinately high stall speed & suffered from vicious stalls that could easily degenerate in2 an incipient spin if not handled correctly.

The SDOE A-4, however, flies as if it has a FBW flight control system.Was it always like this? No.Does TS want it like this? I don't want 2 put words in2 his mouth, but from my conversations with him, I don't think so.He has made the A-4 super-stable because he got sick of people complaining to him about that "spinny" 190.Some people even became quite rude 2wards TS, insisting he'd wrecked "their" 190.So he went back & spent many more hours making the A-4 almost spin proof.

The other 190s suffer from exactly the same problem, except that unlike TS's A-4,and 2 varying degrees, they don't perform 2 historical standards (the Dora-9 in particular).Since nobody seems 2 have shown an interest in the 190s 4 a long time, I offered 2 use TS's A-4 as a template and work on the A-8, and hopefully the A-3.The D-9 is a different matter however, and 'm not sure I could do it.That is, I have very *little* experience in OpenPlane FM tweaking, and I have been very ill over the last few months, so the chances of me doing something with it r slim.

As 4 the 109, I was planning on help Zur, but he has not replied 2 my emails 4 almost 2 months.I have managed 2 get my hands on historical climb & speed graphs for the E-4/F-4/G-6/K-4 & have myself conducted a fairly in-depth analysis of the performance of SDOE's 109s using the current FMs.Zur was going 2 use my info 2 tweak the FMs 2 try 2 get them closer 2 historical figures.

I've also managed 2 get certain other data, like roll-rate numbers 4 quite a few a/c and engine power graphs 4 a number of German & US powerplants.Roll-rates in the SDOE 190 r generally too low as they stand, with TS's A-4 being far & away the most accurate.Roll-rates in the current 109's r in some cases better than the current 190s, particularly at high speed.In reality, all 109s were absolute pigs in the roll axis at high speed, although their low speed roll-rate was reasonably good.

Anyway, I'm using the 109s & 190s as examples because they r a/c I fly regularly in SDOE, and I have considerable knowledge re: their real-world counterparts.My observations may or may not be transferrable 2 other current a/c in SDOE.I stress that my comments r in *NO WAY* a criticism of those who have spent many hours of hard work on these virtual masterpieces.They r my observations & my opinions, which may or may not be valid depending on your POV.They r certainly no more valid than anyone else's.

I think that any "deficiencies"if they exist stem from the fact that people have real lives that take precedence and often prohibit an SDOE a/c builder from devoting all the time they'd like 2 their projects.Sometimes they have had enough & would like 2 move on2 another a/c, and sometimes they just don't have historical performance/handling data 2 work with.

I personally did quite a bit of work on the 109s but I suspect that real life prohibited Zur from being able 2 commit the time 2 use the data I had gathered.I'd like 2 do some work on the A-8 & A-3's performance, as well as giving all 1909's their "spin back".The historical Dora-9 is a personal favourite of mine, but I'm not sure I have the skill 2 do anything meaningful with the SDOE version currently.Besides which, as I mentioned earlier, my health has "gone down the gurgler" & I'm increasingly unable 2 spend the time I'd like on my favourite hobby (ie flight sims).

posted 04-28- 09:15 AM               

Karaya2 and some others will back mw up on this story-- I was online a few weeks back with the classic Corsair -VS- Ta-152 mission set in Africa. I had got to about 9500 feet in my Corsair and started to tail one of the big 152's....sorry I can't remember who it was....anyways-- through some of my violent, unstable maneuevering , I ended up in quite a spin....I knocked back the throttle and jammed my rudder every which way-- and it seemed hopeless, but I never gave up and lo and behold at about 500 feet, I finally started to recover....and zoomed away at about 100 feet above the ground.

It was one of the nest expereinces I had online in a loooong time--- and would have been much sweeter if I hadn't tried to snick away from the 152 after my recovery. Geez- you'd think these Corsairs would be a bit stronger....who'd have thought they couldn't fly through the hanger walls!!

jedi-- a word with you please

All I am trying to say is the ability to spin is there-- maybe you just have to stop trying so hard

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posted 04-28- 11:48 AM               

You need to join the FM team for Snickers project. It just so happens the 190 is one of the planes we'll be working on.

Also, TS and Zur are kind of busy. They've offered to answer questions and give tips, but the don't havve the spare time right now to do a lot of FM work.

Last, both of them have been clubbed on the head too many times about how a plane should fly. Where we can get the pilot's notes, we are going to make the plane's (as much as is possible) fly as described in the notes.

One thing that will also be included is either excerpts from the notes in the Training missions or as a readme file. If someone complains about a handling chrarcteristic that's listed in the pilot's notes as being a trait of that aircraft, they need to learn the aircraft better or turn prevent stalls on.

posted 04-28- 12:08 PM               

This is "natural," of course, since when you tweak the FM, you are using your OWN system, and your OWN joystick. Unfortunately, it DOES make a difference.

When the "new" Corsair was set up, I THOUGHT I had it tweaked to "feel" just like my idea of a Corsair--a little squirrelly on the ground, spins if you hamfist it, torque rolls if you aren't gentle with her at low speed/high power. Too bad I ALSO had my stick response set to the lower end of the scale (feels "realer" to me that way, and I have my own justifiable ideas of what's "real") AND I'm using a TM F-22 stick, which isn't real "sensitive" to begin with.

Well, the result is that with certain "mainstream" joysticks/ports, the plane was all but uncontrollable. If you pulled ANY G, the thing would simply roll over and die. Well, "real" on MY system doesn't make it "real" on anyone else's, so I reset MY joystick slider to the middle (and that's as much compromise as I'm doin!) and "re-tweaked" to the point where a spin was still POSSIBLE at least, but you could fly the plane in combat, and still run yourself out of airspeed if you insist on flying it like a Zero. But what was "lost" was the "quirky" feel on my OWN system (and probably on others' as well). She's pretty much stable as a rock unless I REALLY hamfist it, and spins are only going to happen if I want them to. At least it will still stall "dangerously" if you yank and bank too much at low speed/high power/close to the ground, as the real "Ensign Eliminator" did

The point is: the FM isn't "universal." It's affected by the hardware. Go into your setup, and change the joystick sensitivity all the way up (or all the way down) and see what you think then. You may have to do this for EACH airplane to get it "close" to what you want. You may have to write down just where to set it for each plane, and change it every mission.

The builders, meanwhile, IMO, can only be expected to build for their own systems, and, at best, for "neutral" joystick sensitivity. We can't read minds about what folks want, or have any way of knowing how "our" plane will behave on "your" system. Again, IMO, it's probably too much to expect us to make a plane "easy" if it wasn't REALLY easy. I don't know of ANY modelers who just want to see a plane in the game, and don't care if it behaves "realistically." If there's players who want that, well...tough There are OTHER sims that will give you that...

posted 04-28- 07:09 PM               

As 4 them sick of being whipping-boys, I concur 100%, hence my story re: TS and the A-4.

posted 04-28- 07:47 PM               

C'mon Zur, the P-47 should roll better than that, here's why Blah, blah blah

Zur: I checked it again against the stats I have, and it responds accordingly.

Me: Are you sure cuz blah blah blah

Zur: I'll send you the stats if you need them (unfortuantely, he couldn't find them at that time)

Me: Well I'll just look into this myself cuz I KNOW I'm right

Me a few days later: Well' I thought I was right, maybe . . .

Me after some more research: Well I'll be dipped in ----, I was wrong.

Next post: Yeah Zur ( and feeling rather guilty about popping my mouth off in the first place). I would have saved myself some heartache if I had asked what the roll rates were supposed to be before saying they were wrong.

If anyone does the research, they'll find that arguing with what Zur and Tail did is like spitting into a hurricane. If you don't duck your words will come back and smack you right in the face. I became so impressed with what they did, it's what got me interested in FM work.

As far as the 109's go, Zur admitted in a post on simHQ that they were about 80% of where he wanted them to be, but time became an issue (and by that time he'd taken a pretty good beating).

TS admits he's not 100% satisfied but some compromises had to be made.

So realize they are aware of some of the shortcomings and don't claim they made the aircraft perfect.

Besides the joystick issue, there are other things that affect how the plane handles on different machines. I can move the MS Precision pro to a different machine and the planes respond differently.

On a side note, don't get too hard on Psi- he may not care if the plane flat spins but I have yet to hear him complain about an FM somebody's worked really hard on. ( At least in the last few months when I've been really active on this board).

Point of all of this- ask questions (why did or didn't you make the plane do this), make suggestions (it acts like this on my machine, could this be adjusted by . . . ), and if you think it's wrong, join the FM group. We'll teach you what we know and let you work on whatever plane you feel needs work And maybe a few others

Yell at me if you like, I've handled a crew of techs trying to get a new pharmaceutical plant up while engineers, contractors, and operators were all hollering about how long it was taking (until I showed them we were having to fix the screw ups each one of those groups had made before we got a chance to work on the equipment). Gave me a pretty thick skin. (Oh and we still got our part done one time, just not early. Ever work 7 14-17 hour days?)

Anyway, if you want to help, you'll be happy to know all complaints, flames, etc, will be directed towards me as I'll be the "customer service compaint desk". So you won't get the beating Zurt and Tail took.

BTW, I tend to yell back in private, so if I think you're out of line, you'll probably get an e-mail.

posted 04-28- 11:25 PM            

And 4 the rest of it, a note 2 U, you're right this is not flame wars and I won't play that game with U, go in peace my friend

P