posted 04-19- 11:48 AM            

I as most of you know am an avid SDOE'er that always plays on-line and has enjoyed doing so for a couple of years now. I don't have the fastest computer in the world but I have always been able to hold my own in the skies and enjoy my flying expierence.

That was until plane pack 6/Nations 2 was released.

I have to say that in my personal opinion there is way way way toooo much included in the Par files that really should be the choice of the user. When I was running on 1.50/PP5.3b and the contest pack it was smooth and enjoyable, so whats my options??? I'm not in the market of upgrading my PC and video cards for 1 game and never have.

I can play a ton of new games on the market like CSF2, Half life, AVP and don't have lag issues or memory issues.

Sorry if I offend with these comments but I am so dissapointed that this sim has lost it's playing ability for me.

posted 04-19- 01:02 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Himdog:
Where the onliners want a good match up with aircraft and a much smaller par file for the "Standard".

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I agree. (Surprised? You shouldnt be.) That is part of what the entire rebuild effort is all about. I do not know what changes (if any) the patch will make to the PAR file system. But I DO know the patch is coming.

If you really want to help the sim along, help sv with his online testing of the patch. That more than anything else will move us forward.

Snick
=V67=

posted 04-19- 01:10 PM               

If you don't remeber the 2 threads, here they are: http://www.fightersquadron.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002964.html http://www.fightersquadron.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002961.html

posted 04-19- 01:12 PM               

That is why the WWI pack does not require Nations, etc. I think that perhaps things like Nations needs a "Nations full version" and a "Nations Light" that would part of the plane pack. The Nations Light could just have the new countries and whatever else is needed so the aircraft can work with the correct nations.

And not only is SDOE getting "too big," but the files can be hard to find for new players - in fact even this forum is hard to find for a new user. When I spend too much time in my WWI world, I get behind playing WW2 online. When I tried to get back in recently, it took me over a week to get set up!

On-line playability needs to be taken into account. I don't think there is any easy answer... it is so great to have such quality add-ons, and such quantity!

If we had a large on-line playing faction, then this all would not be an issue because there would just be multiple on-line standards. Guys with the "baic pack" could be in one lobby, while guys with the "Pacific theater" could be in another, etc.

All this current pain is because SDOE has a very odd paradox: We have a huge community of add-on authors, but a very small on-line pilot audience. So it is no one's "fault" - it is just our unlucky situation.

My hope is that this will change with the patch. When SDOE becomes playable on-line, I think we will see a rather fast growth of users - not only that, but more fun for existing users. This in turn will mean more planes and terrains, etc - more fun for all!

But we must be aware of playability issues. You said you wanted hope - here it is: There are many who feel as you do, and together we cn put together a "base" pack that is small and sweet and gets you in to SDOE-online. It must be a valid subset of the full plane pack so that guys with the full pack can fly with base pack guys. Now ful pack pilots can go have fun with all the SDOE community has made available when there ar enough on-line who support it - AND people get jump into SDOE faster and with a more simple set up.

It could happen... so long as enough people need a basic solution to on-line matching to compliment the full official plane pack system.

posted 04-19- 02:20 PM               

Bulddog and Himdog, let's back up a sec and take a look at a few things>

Lag issues:
The lag is usually more of a server/internet problem than anything else.
Another culprit is Win2000, many people playing SDOE have been
experiencing lag problems due to the way the new OS handles and processed
Tcp/sIP stacks. MS is aware of this and keeps releasing patches. SDOE wa
not the only game this happened to. This lag has nothing to do with the
size of the par files or the quality of the planes. The sm file is not
passed over the internet during gameplay. That's why each machine has
it's own copy. There are problems in the original code with data packets
being dropped. In the testing of the new patch this seems to have been
largely fixed.

Framerate:
now this is an area that HAS taken a hit. This is do largely to much of
the experimentation that has been going on with damage modeling. But,
this is isolated to a few planes. The developers are, even as we speak,
going back through the code to streamline it and improve framerates.
Consider their efforts like a baby's first steps, they may be awkward and
not real efficient, but as time goes by and better ways of doing the same
thing are realized, you'll se the same features but the framerates will
start coming back up.

Here's another important fact- the patch is featuring a more streamlined
rendering engine using OpenGl. The OpenGL imlementation provides better
image quality, more features, and HIGHER framerates- yes that's right.
Depending on the machine we've seen reports of anywhere from a 7 to 20
FPS increase in framerates.

Another measure is being taken. The posting about looking for a new team
to help correct many of the plane issues. They pass messages back and
forth outside of FSIC, but I will let you in on this. Frame rate testing
will now be included as the planes are being worked on. The opinion of
everyone is we can improve framerates without sacrficing quality. Oh
yeah, and if it see's to some like we should trash the damage models, try
flying against the P-47 on-line with and without the engine damage
modeling and pilot kills. They are next to impossible to take out.

Memory issues:
The only thing causing memory issues are all of the skins running around
and the fact that some missions have way too many ground objects in them.
The more skins used in a mission, the bigger the memory bandwidth
required. If you have a mission with4 types of aircraft and you have
custom skins for each one, it does at times overload the video memory
causing blocky textures. SDOE only loads in the files that are required
by the mission. It does not load in all of the par files every time.
Instead, the necessary files are EXTRACTED from the par files (hence the
cache to speed this process up). Think of the parfiles as a filing
cabinet, you don't take out an entire drawer for one folder.

Plane Pack not being as smooth and enjoyable.
This I will give you, but after working on some of the planes I can tell
you one reason why. Although the planes added were tested in general,
there was no quality control on HOW things were being done. Consequently
some of the planes were put in with the FM from another airplane because
people wanted it in. Other aircraft were put in the game using way to
many "tricks" to get them in the air and you see some strange things
happening because of that. The goal of the group Snickers started is to
correct these issues, release aircraft that do not cause a CTD, and make
the play more balanced by making the flight characteristics more
realistic. This can easily be done without causing a framerate hit or
requiring more memory.

File size requires long download times:
There is no arguing this point. But. This is why I have broken the files
into smaller pieces that can be reassembled. The total download time may
be the same, but if your connection gets dropped, you don't have to start
all over. The funny thing is, people will complain about this but not
think anything about downloading a 50MB demo of a new game- go figure. On
another note, I plan on making a CD with all of this stuff availabe for
$5 plus shipping when the patch and updated Plane pack are released. If I
can find a site to host it, I'll even post the iso image so someone on
another continent can do the same thing, or you can have a friend
download it and burn a new CD for you.

I know you said you don't have a high end machine. My son has a 333MHZ
Celeron with 64MB of ram and a 4MB Starfighter card. In almost all of the
missions his lowest framerate is in the high 20's, and in some he hit's
the low 40's. He has yet to have the game be unplayable when playing on
our home network, and has yet to get the blocky textures.

You didn't offend me, but you brought up some concerns that haven't been
dealt with in a factual manner, so I though I'd give it a try. I hope
this makes you feel better.

posted 04-19- 02:53 PM               

Snake

posted 04-19- 03:13 PM               

People with concerns over FR's and online issues should be aware of all the facts invovled. We are working on a revised standard pack, which will give an improvement on quality where possible, an improvement in BALANCE in every case, and additional features if we can squeeze them in.

There will always be people ( myself included) who want to push the limits in DM or modelling detail, but we don't intend to force this into the standard. If you want it, and can handle it, then it will be available. We just don't intend to force you!

Not wishing to leak secret data... ( snickers has already had to shoot several suspected spies.... ) but the planes we are working on are all being tested on a range of setups, and the lowest spec machine isn't that far removed from the machines the game was intended to be played on a few years back.....

posted 04-19- 03:44 PM               

There are many of us who have been here for years, and intend to be around for years more if possible. But to do that, changes need to be made....and we are very fortunate that there are among us those who can, and are, working to move this forward. And fortunate to have people who will say it's needed, want it, and will help get it.

I posted in another thread that it seemed SDOE was becoming 2 sims - one offline, one online. I really don't see that changing...what I do see from what is being done, is this...the crossover between the 2 will no longer be seperated by a gap, and those who enjoy both will be able to do so with much less ( or no ) hassle.

Here's to a revitalized SDOE!

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nealg=FC=

posted 04-19- 04:47 PM            

Thank you guys for your replies you have thoughtfully and respecfully answered my concerns and more, Thankyou.

I am now looking forward to seeing the new Patch and plane pack and I'm excited. I have nothing but respect and admiration for all of you and your continued efforts in being pro-active concerning the needed improvements. I wish you all the best in your efforts and if there is anything I can do to assist please send me an e-mail.

is there hope?? NOW there is baby.

Thanks once again guys and good luck.

posted 04-19- 05:39 PM               

I am totally jazzed about the update project and look forward to seeing it come to fruition. We are working at this 10 planes at a time-- starting in the best place of all- the original 10.

Now's the problem-- how do we decide which planes in the pack should be tossed and which shouldn't. Granted- it is nice to have different variants of the 109 to make a wealth of missions (and they are well done in many respects-- I still love looking at the variations in the cockpit!). But who's to say that the 109 should be included over the Corsair, or the Pe-2 over the Beaufighter. Everyone likes their own thing....so what to do? While having an online and offline pack seems like a good idea...who's to say what should be included and what shouldn't? There was a time when a certain group looked to organize and set guidelines for this (Rhymes with Cops)....but they were labeled elitest for trying to do the very thing that we are discussing here.

The future of SDOE looks complicated to say the least....the patch solves and will continue to solve many long-lasting issues, and these update packs will make for more balanced gameplay while being ever mindful of framerates....all I want to say is-- I hope we remain at this level of acceptance and things that might improve SDOE and not let the issues that arose within the last few weeks fragment the community any more.

I love this game and I love this board....my wife has no idea why....but it has been a significant part of life for almost three years. I am continually amazed at the discussions we have had here and the products of different people's labor....and although I will buy IL-2 and any sims that continue to advance- this one will never leave the harddrive....long after the new computers bypass what we have here-- I will keep this old clunker running LOL

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Brought to you by the campaign for a better Dauntless!

posted 04-19- 06:42 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jeeves:
Now's the problem-- how do we decide which planes in the pack should be tossed and which shouldn't. Granted- it is nice to have different variants of the 109 to make a wealth of missions (and they are well done in many respects-- I still love looking at the variations in the cockpit!). But who's to say that the 109 should be included over the Corsair, or the Pe-2 over the Beaufighter. Everyone likes their own thing....so what to do? While having an online and offline pack seems like a good idea...who's to say what should be included and what shouldn't? There was a time when a certain group looked to organize and set guidelines for this (Rhymes with Cops)....but they were labeled elitest for trying to do the very thing that we are discussing here.

---

I think that's the crux of the matter. Well said Jeeves.

As for Nations, it was touched on a couple times here, so I just want to address it briefly. YES I am aware the v2 release was huge, YES I am aware a lot of it doesn't get used by many people. So what to do? We have a plan on paper that would see the "required" size of a Nations download, or "Nations Compliance Pack" (NCP3) as it will officially be known, will in fact be quite small. The girth of each nation can then be downloaded as the user sees fit. I hope that is enough to satisfy you that the future of Nations in the context of SDOE being too large is, imo, a non-issue.

Just an idea to toss out there for consideration... Rather than have a plane pack, like an exclusive club you're either in or out of, what about theatre packs? (w)ETO, (e)ETO, PTO, and then a 'basic' pack for planes that overlap significantly (ie: 109s). Take the focus off being in or out, and put it on regionalization, since many people have a 'pet theatre' they're interested in anyways. Just a raw idea, fwiw.

Werner

posted 04-19- 07:06 PM               

By splitting it into theatres, it becomes much more obvious. (Not saying thats the way to do it, but it is logical...)
In addion to the theatres, there should be one for planes under development. That way they can be played and tested on line before being brought into a theatre.

Right now this is still speculation, and I really dont want to start this discussion yet. (That will be the next thread that has more than 100 posts )

posted 04-19- 07:57 PM            

Werner

posted 04-19- 08:56 PM               

That being said, Online Standard could easily be streamlimed by restricting the "Standard" to a set of aircraft chosen, and everything else we produce can simply be addons to SDOE.

In this way we could "For Example" have an Online Standard of for instance:

1 type of spit
1 type of 109
1 type of 190
1 Ju84
1 B17
Mossie
Tiffie
Yak
I16
Pe2
1 P51
1 P38
1 F4U
1 Zero

etc

So that the size of the complete pack is limited and all online players have a complete set, anything else is pure addon. The aircraft should be picked for historical matchups and also should be the best they can be in FM and matched on DM.

As other aircraft are added for other nations then 1 version of that aircraft can be adopted to PP if it meets the standard set by the aircraft already there, BUT if like the La-7 it goes well beyond the design of the others it should be left out purely to maintian parity.

I don't honestly know how much this type of thing would reduce the current Online Standard, but I should imagine it would do alot to help, then no-one has to feel slighted by not being included in the PP, the PP only holds a standard set that are fully complete and and compatible and aircraft only need adding to the pack to bring that nations aircraft into line.

If we said that each nation could have a maximum of:

3 types of fighter
2 types of bomber
1 type of multirole (mossie, P38 are examples)

Then although the pack will still grow as new Nations aircraft are added, it wouldn't be so fast and furious as now and the growth rate would be much slower.

posted 04-20- 08:48 AM               

Currently, the vehicles will include:

FRENCH VEHICLES:

* Citroen 7CV

AMERICAN VEHICLES:

* M3 Halftrack

* M16 Halftrack (AAA)

* Willys' Jeep

* GMC Supply

GERMAN VEHICLES:

* Hanomag Sd.Kfz.251

* King Tiger

BRITISH VEHICLES:

* Matador 40mm

* Matilda

I had to let that one slip...

------------------
Visit FS:SDOE Online

posted 04-20- 09:39 AM               

There are nice german and japan vehicles!

posted 04-20- 10:01 AM               

I'll ask him if I can...

posted 04-20- 10:18 AM               

Winter

Grey

Forest Green

Desert

Rendsburger, I've done Winter and all the other schemes already for all the vehicles except the Citroen 7CV. These packs are seperately available for download and I will release them when I finish the ground pack.