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Author
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Topic: Ok, let's make the point of the situation...
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li'l bastard
Pilot
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posted 04-11- 03:59 AM
   
Whatta mess in these days!
DM or FR, FM or 3D model...
Well that happens in forums, many heads, many thoughts, many points of view...
But lemme say we shouldn't forget the main purpose of this community, growing up (us and our game)together & HAVING FUN 
I know any of u want to piss other's work, that would be stupid, and the idea of a standard it's great, a lot of time ago I posted a msg about this but didn't have much feedback... now that we have tons o' planes shit's coming up (forgive me for the delicate metaphore  ): different FMs, DMs and so on that make this game look like a puzzle... every new plane has the creator's touch in it, and that's wonderful, I really admire the results rewached by Nat w/ the La7, and even if it's a li'l FR killer (sorry Nat, but on my humble P200 MMX w/ a 3Dfx, FR goes on quite crappy in the last times, not only for your plane...  ) it's impossible not to say it's fun to shoot at her, I really love the cowling damage, w/ the engine comin out under the cowl...
the problem now is to decide a STANDARD... have u ever seen a created plane that wasn't and remained a beta? As soon as we have it flyable, we have fun w/ it, playing for hours, but after a while that's not that interesting anymore (maybe because anotha plane's out) forgetting about it (it's a lot of time I don't fly the He100,Go229...)...
I always considered this a democratic forum, so the best thing to do is an election day:
STANDARD OR NOT?
AND IF YES, WHAT KINDA STANDARD DM, FM etc...?
I like the entusiasthic feeling of the plane pioneers, but don't forget, as razer wisely stated, that there are other things that need attention, such as the terrain, and that fortunately are brought on by a bounch of great guys! And that FR, before any damage model or flight model, is the key of realism...just my humble opinion, but think about it... ------------------
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li'l bastard
Pilot
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posted 04-11- 04:15 AM
uh, about DM...
are we goin to stop upgrading it or one day (w/ 50 Ghz PCs) we're gonna get out from our plane, open the cowl and say "Goddamnit'!!! I've to change the valves again!"...
li'l b IP: Logged |
Psi
Pilot
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posted 04-11- 11:06 AM
I believe than most have the very best intentions to keep this sim the best that ever was. I do believe in realizm and the extra stuff that modelers have put into their planes for this reason. I think that all understand the "flyability" factor and the trade offs that have to be made for one more part falling off of a plane. I remember the 5.2 days and 85fps, the cleanliness and the fluidity of the chase and the kill. It's really true that the hunt is better than the kill and in this case the hunt involves FR's. I now have many wonderful user added aircraft that gives me a sense of varity that other sims are just now getting on the wagon with. And I have made trades for those A/C, FR's, some would tell me that I don't have to D/L but that aint fair. I know these builders and I've know them for a long time and one thing that I do remember from the early days (contest) was the concern for FR's. TailSlide and others were pioneers for
hits on the FR's and if most keep this in mind (I believe they will) we can have everything we need to stay on the cutting edge of sim development. This is the sim that other developers watch and bootleg FS development to use and call it their own. We can still have the best of both worlds but lets not analyze the concept and allow the stagnation of another great development. Just my thoughts, (some call me a fence rider)P [This message has been edited by Psi (edited 04-11-2001).] IP: Logged |
Psi
Pilot
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posted 04-11- 11:08 AM
STRANGE!!!  fixed it, oh nevermind [This message has been edited by Psi (edited 04-11-2001).] IP: Logged |
Snickers
Pilot
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posted 04-11- 01:49 PM
Even though there are facts to aim for in an FM, they are a guide toward ther goal but should not necessarily be the goal itself. I do not know that it is desirable to set a standard. FMs are (regardless of the facts) to some degree subjective. It is, IMHO more important that they play correctly with each other and that they are useable period.... (The Mossie isnt useable from a ground takeoff....) And the published stats are the way to get close enough to do the rest.... (I am sure that have just offended some purists out there )DM's - This one could get emotional The basic: shoot off stabs, wing tips and crash type of stuff to how extreme do you want to be? The important part here is that adding damage effects does not bring it harder to bring a plane down. It is important that the DMs be similar (but not identical). In all honesty, there are planes I want to be able to shoot wing panels off of... (and some where this did happen and they would still continue to fly....) BUT NOT ON ALL PLANES. There has been much growth and evolution in this sim. (And yes, fun.) When it stops being fun, it dies whether on an idividual pilot level or the entire sim. If you whave written any software, you know that after you have written it the first time, if you go back and redo it, the code is usually tighter, more compact and more efficient. Right now we are beginning the rebuild of the original planes. (Yes, some have already been largely redone...) The point is, there have been simple model changes that increase the look of the plane while reducing the poly count. I expect the same type of thing to happen in DM. We have reached a certain plateau. Now lets look at what we have done and make it more efficient (incease the FR). There are OpenPlane features that are only rarely used that would help.... People are still learning OpenPlane and still havent hit all of its potential... What a marvelous gift given to us by Parsoft!!!! My this has gotten long and there is more to say... but I will stop know. I dont want to start too many fights... [This message has been edited by Snickers (edited 04-11-2001).] IP: Logged |
Nat
JAG
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posted 04-11- 07:02 PM
Thanks for the kind comments Lil'B, I am working on the FR issue and believe I have a fix for it now (not that most are interested, they'd rather see it scrapped), but she should ba alot better soon IMO the standard that really matters for online play is DM. If you're in an aircraft with a highly detailed DM you will be more likely to be shot down then the guy in a stock DM aircraft. On this point though Condor has done alot of very good work to improve engine DM and putting it in most aircraft, but as I said, even before FM, the DM must be comparible. Where the La-7 fits into this.. well, it doesn't right now, it's DM and FM are simply to advanced, but then, it's a project that I undertook to show what can be done, and one day it might fit in better with upgrades to other aircraft So, as far as standards are concernd IMO this should be the order: DM
FM
PM without DM parity we're lost, although FM is a very very close second. It must be remembered ofcourse that we're talking about online standard, and not stopping buildings from innovating and improving, it would ba a sad day that a builder stopped trying to make things better due to criticism from others. IP: Logged |
Werner Molders
JAG
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posted 04-11- 07:21 PM
Quite simply, if DM parity can be achieved at the level of detailed DMs like the La7 without adding a fourth digit to the defacto minimum processor speed, then I think we can pretty much return to business as usual. If this is not the case however, and even with the best optimization SDOE is going to be put out of reach of guys with 32 meg cards and a P400 (or less!), then we need to strike a balance. Werner ------------------
Visit Abbeville Field Today!
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Nat
JAG
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posted 04-11- 07:26 PM
Actualy Werner, on the engine DM side atleast, the La-7 hard built engine compairs well with an aircraft setup with Condors coded DM. Where the problem comes though is the wing DM, you could do enough damage to the La-7 wings to force her down, but all other aircraft have to have wings destroyed, thats where the unbalance is right now more than anything, the other stuff like panels etc are "currently" only visual IP: Logged |
Razer
Pilot
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posted 04-11- 08:29 PM
Nat, I haven't really looked at the engine DM in OPS yet, but didn't you have the idea of modeling each cylinder so when one was hit it lowered the HP? Or did i dream that one night? It was a cool idea. [This message has been edited by Razer (edited 04-11-2001).] IP: Logged |
Mirthain
Pilot
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posted 04-11- 09:22 PM
Well,
Anyone who has fought in either the SDOE war or the current squad war can attest, DM and FM are and should always be tied together. If the DM is going to be the best we can do, then the FM should also be as close as we can hit it. One without the other puts both the plane and his foe in jeopardy of being either a dog or uber. perhaps a way around this is to work out a patch that has planes with comperable dm and fm work done on them, to the general satisfaction of the community. couple of planes from each of the main countries. (England, Germany, US) No offense to anyone else, but we gotta start somewhere and those are the common threads for the game. And start there. That is what we did with the original PP's, let's just reinvent ourselves with "Finished" planes.
Now, bear in mind, not every one of these planes need to have as advanced visual coding as the LA7.... but you should be able to realistically damage any plane the same way as any other. The FM's should be tight and reflect both the "Hard Numbers" and the "Pilot memory". Planes should be as good as we can get them with the way they take damage and the way they fly. Doesn't mean we can't tweak them, but it should just be tweaks, and not complete rebuilds except for advanced visuals. But the number crunching should be as close as we can get them.
Frame rates will conversely suffer/soar depending on individual systems, but the endevour to keep them as low as possible should always be in the mind of the builder. The big caveat is always that the more graphics that we use, the higher the processor will be needed to make it work well. None of this will happen overnight and there will always be those that lag behind the hardware curve.... so for those behind the curve, just know that the time to plan your upgrades is now.. ;}
Anyway, to simplify the above rambling....
FM=DM they are the same IMO
FR
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Mirthain=FC=
[This message has been edited by Mirthain (edited 04-11-2001).] IP: Logged |
Nat
JAG
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posted 04-11- 10:39 PM
LOL Yes Razer, thats how the La-7 engine is built up, 6 small engine giving the same output as 1 big engine, as a small engine (cyliner) takes damage it gets reduced in HP, so you get anything from an almost unnoticable decrease in HP, to the point where you simply have no power left, it all works pretty well from my testing, as usual though I've had little or no feedback from beta testing, so I'll take that as a good sign lolIP: Logged |
Werner Molders
JAG
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posted 04-11- 10:55 PM
Nat, I didn't realize you were looking for feedback on engine DM specifically, I was too busy trying to pick up all the pieces of my fuse after each flight.  I did notice the DM, in fact several times I'd get shot up pretty well, and then have to make a powered glide out of the bomber formation back down to earth. It was really realistic I thought, in fact if there had been a thin trail of white smoke from the engine it would have looked just like some of the scenes from that Battle of Britain film years ago (except with La7s of course). Had I known where specifically you wanted feedback I would have delivered, but not being an experienced beta tester I didn't know that a report on the engine was standard practice. Werner ------------------
Visit Abbeville Field Today!
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Nat
JAG
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posted 04-12- 12:42 AM
Werner, no worries at all, just any reports really, I just happen to be talking about the engine here One point I've noticed myself is that sometimes you lose power with no indication, and I found out what it was. If your engines are damaged, you should have a large but faint grey smoke from the engine area. If Oil is damaged you get black smoke from the exhausts, but sometimes you would get no smoke and no engine power, so I added a smoke trail to the prop in the damage settings, and sure enough, the prop would be damaged without the engine smoking, and thats why the power is gone, so I'm going to have to decide on a visual indicator for prop damage, for now I've added a white smoke trail so I can see whats going on, but any suggestions on this are well accepted
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