posted 03-13- 07:25 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Rendsburger:
I think AI need only one thing to win a fight,thats better turnrate.

Rendsburger

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Imo you're right on with that. Online however is a different story. It all depends on the pilot, and the decisions they make.

Werner

posted 03-13- 07:27 PM               

In the majority of cases the difference is in the pilot. I have seen pilots on-line flying the I-16 get kills against Fw190A-3, and on other ocasions a Spitfire V take out a Bf109K-4. Most planes have a comparative advantage in some area - all you have to do is find the advantage, use it and you will defeat most pilots.

posted 03-13- 10:59 PM               

In truth, if I were going to design a sim that represents a era, but was limited on planes and objects, I would have to design some way in which the actual outcome could be remodelled as it occurred. So, if one side just could produce more craft and more trained pilots, my craft's abilities and AI abilities would have to be tweaked ( or un-tweaked ) to accomodate that circumstance.

Not saying that is responsible here - all but the AI have been changed too much. But it seems only right, for a solo player sim.

Just interesting how differently things are viewed.

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nealg=FC=

posted 03-14- 12:54 AM            

Werner

posted 03-14- 01:42 AM               

It comes down to - in my feeling, anyway - the difference between what is real 'on paper', and what is real 'in reality'. The 2 seldom actually intertwine. Just as any of us who have driven cars have discovered; 22 MPG my butt, why am I getting 17 when the guy down the street with exactly the same make model gets 27?

Sorry...a peeve of mine, about reality...and off topic. Hehe..people want to make excuses, say 'well, it's how you frive it...tire inflation...gas you use..' which is really just B.S. to cover a unwillingness to admit that something isn't in reality what it was built as 'on paper'.

As far as this topic goes, it is all in how you view it. I don't think I have seen a instance yet, in all my SDOE time since it's release, where I could say the Allied planes ( in toto ) were superior, or vice versa. Only individual planes. And then only if they are flown by those who have taken the time to learn them. Hard to judge with the AI, as they have to operate within a given set of instructions. We don't...that makes a difference.

I just believe it is totally interesting how we all view it differently. The 51 is a good example; I hear how it is Uber, from many...yet, I cannot fly it to victory to save my soul. Thus, it is a dog in it's current incarnation for me. Superior? Maybe to a piece of wood. But put the right pilot in it..say, one of the 26AC, or the 225th...and you are lucky to get away with your life.

Now, the Spitfire...I guess I can admit it's my favorite ...if I can get my opponent to fight me on my terms, I stand a good chance of surviving. I am a lousy shot, so winning is not a possibility. ( I want to try Yard's gunsights, but don't know which to install, hehe; I am not sure anymore which cockpits I use! ). But if one thinks a Allied plane is superior, just climb in a 190 and take me on in a Corsair or 47 or 51....you will win so easily it will make you laugh out loud.

Viewpoints...it's where we look and how we see that makes us all so darn interesting!

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nealg=FC=

posted 03-14- 10:22 AM               

If you want to do a historically accurate test, make the odds 3 to 1 or greater in favor of the Germans when flying US vs German missions. This was the typical fighter to fighter ratio of attackers vs escorts from 1943 through mid to late 1944. If the US aircraft maintain a 4 to 1 kill ratio in the air, the results are historically accurate even though the tactics may not be.

The typical odds of fighter vs fighter (notice I'm not including bomber #'s here) was this high because of staging fighters. You'll read how a bombing mission had an escort of 800 fighters, but what many books fail to point out is that only 75 to 100 could be on station at any one time due to fuel considerations. The fighters had to relay squadrons to keep a continuous escort. On top of that, they had to break into flights to cover the entire area the bomber formations covered. Often they would start with 4 planes against 20 or more until a couple more flights could arrive from their escort area to provide assistance.

Odds of 10 to one against the escort were seen on occasion. An example is where 6 P-47's charged headfirst into a oncoming group of over 60 German aircraft to break up the attack pass they were getting ready to make against the bombers. They did break up the attack, but then spent the next 5 minutes dodging bullets and desperately yelling Mayday before a squadron of P-38's and four Mustangs showed up to even the odds some. All 6 P-47's survived in that 5 minutes (and yes they all were hit and took various aounts of damage in that time frame, a couple had to limp home on a wing and a prayer).

If the AI seems less intelligent for the Germans, this would not be true in early situations, but by 1944 Germany had lost so many of her experienced pilots (mainly because they didn't pull them out of battle and bring them home to train the new guys), that the quality of the Luftwaffe pilots as a whole was noticeably less than in 1939-42. In 1945, it was even worse.

This decline wasn't due to lack of talent, but due to Goering's decision to keep the top aces in combat. For example Eric Hartman flew in combat for 5 years! To survive that long he was undoubtedly, in my mind, the single best pilot in WWII bar none. This is the reason top German Aces had such high scores, and also why so few of them survived. The Japanese had the same policy and sufferred the same fate. If they had pulled their pilots out and had them train new pilots like the US and Britain did, things would have been MUCH worse for the bombers and escorts in 1943 and 1944.

One more note. Those that think the Jugs in SDOE are too hard to shoot down should take the incident above into consideration. (why do I always feel like I can see Zur smiling when I point out incidents like the one above?)

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"Where'd he GO!?!?"
thunk-thunk-thunk-zing-OUCH
That answered my question

[This message has been edited by Da Jug head (edited 03-14-2001).]

posted 03-14- 01:47 PM               

My 2 cents here.
I believe for offline/ai pilots the abililty of the assigned squadron has a lot to do with how well they fight as well as the mission settings like moral, sanity, skill, etc. For both sides, these settings should be the same.

If you pick a bomber squadron to fly fighters they won't be very effective. Just read the squad history to find out how good they should be in combat in sdoe.

Just incase this is not correct, a good test would be to try swapping the squadrons used in the "test" missions mentioned. If a German squad was in Fw190's and an American squadron was in P51's, then put the same German squad in the P51's and put the same American squad in the Fw190's. If you see the same lopsided kill ratio, but for the other country, then you know the squadron ability is causing the results you are seeing.

posted 03-14- 06:39 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Sturm Spieler:
I don't know, I really think the allies are losing in SDOE war, as of late, is discipline. Not enough allied pilots are returning to base. Last weekend, we slaughtered some p-38s on a fighter-bomber mission, there was one p-38 left against all our 109s and he still tried to attack the target instead of heading home and trying another day. That would have never happened in the real war. A pilot so out numbered would jam home. I know I did, a couple of weekends ago.

7./JG3 Sturm Spieler

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I think we can attribute the fact that JG3 has a tendancy to return home when damaged our woefully outgunned to the VP system. Losing a pilot hurts worse for us then it does for them (in general) because our squad is focused on the whole VP system. Just my 2 cents...

Oh, and Sunray, this isn't "worrying" about anything, I think this was an interesting discussion as nealg pointed out, because it's an issue that doesn't often come up even though most of us have our own preconceived notions on the subject.

Werner

posted 03-14- 06:52 PM               

I flew online one night with a guy in a 262 againts 4 P-51D's and he waxed all of us in a really great dogfight. He flew the 262 like it was ment to be flown and we didn't last long. When i've flown online i've seen people try to turn fight in a 190. Few months back I flew the A4 against a guy in a spit and I did some BnZ moves on him and after about 10 moves I got position on him and took him out.

Maybe someone needs to do an article "How to live and die in SDOE"

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Tony "Razer" Martin
FS Hangar