posted 03-05- 12:17 AM               

Much improved, can be taken off in a straight line with gradual application of power while gradually incrasing rudder app at the same time

Turning:

Here lies the problem I've run into. even with the gentlest application of elevators in a turn, this plane wants to flip on it's back. The tendency is so pronounced as to make a turn an undesireable maneuver, even when not in combat. The Yak is a handful in this way, but this corsair beta release is even twitchier. This happened at speeds from 180 to 320 mph. I tried it at several different speeds in this range. Put her in a bank bank, start to pull back gently on the stick, as soon as I passed about 1/4 of the range ot the stick, the plane would attempt to flip on it's back. Note this was not a bank & yank turn. I did not experience this with the previous beta.

Canopy;
Canopy closes automatically as soon as the training mission starts. Is there anyway to make it wait so we can shut it manually? The effect is cool however.

Dive and climb rates seem to be more in line with what you were saying Jedi. No more slaughtering zero's without being smart with your tactics. But the turning needs to be corrected. The Corsair was a good solid turning machine even though it still couldn't match a zero.

Gunsight seems to be lined up correctly. I finally figured out a test for this, but haven't tried it on this plane yet, although I tested the procedure on several others. The results seem to be consistent

posted 03-05- 06:51 PM               

Below 200 is a different story, but you shouldn't see any snap-rolling tendency unless you are honking on the stick pretty hard, or trying to pull a lot of G at "low" speeds (which, for the Hog, means max performance turns below 180 or so without flaps). To turn at lower speeds requires a pretty smooth hand on the stick. Asking for a lot of G at low speed, or trying to rapidly "snatch" G to get more angle will probably make her twitchy.

Now, I'm not sure exactly how twitchy it SHOULD be realistically, and I'm not saying you're "hamfisting" it--what I'm wondering is whether this is a joystick issue, i.e. how much elevator sensitivity you've got dialed up? I have mine turned all the way down, and I've calibrated the model for MY setup. Which may be the problem I guess. It CAN be adjusted somewhat, but the penalty will be that the plane retains its energy too well, because with lowered elevator effectiveness, the plane can't be made to slow down by pulling G. It will simply reach "equilibrium" at 200-something mph, and fly all day at that speed. The elevator authority is also somewhat important in making the plane react "dangerously" in low-speed, high-power situations, which was one of its "trademark" faults.

What do some other guys think about the amount of "twitchiness?" Too much? I may have it set too much in line with my system, and not "generic" enough for other joysticks.

The canopy thing is "required" for the new bailout routine for jettisonning the canopy. It has to close to "disarm" the breaking DOF airfoil, which will otherwise cause the canopy to detach by itself at random times inflight. It will also cause the pilot to bail out So to have the canopy start "closed" or stay open until you close it, I have to give up the canopy jettison bailout, which I'm not inclined to do just yet

What I may do is create a "parked version" which starts on the ground with wings folded, canopy open, etc, primarily for use as an AI plane for offline missions. It will be player-flyable, but may have some of the damage "toned-down" to make it a little easier for the AI to fly in combat. Still thinking that one over.

Thanks for the feedback! See if adjusting your joystick makes any difference, or if that messes up the way you like to fly too much. I may be able to tweak the elevator response some...

posted 03-05- 09:33 PM               

I have the sensitivity reduced in the joystick programming for atarters.

I did try minimizing the sensitivity, it only partially alleviated the problem, but made ground handling worse.

I also took the plane to 6000 ft. dipped the nose to pick up speed and at 400 mph pulled back hard on the stick to execute a loop. The aircraft immediately snap rolled and went into a spin. I was able to repeat this. On this maneuver, this is the only plane this happens to.

Should it snap roll, on a hard pull, with no aileron applied when trying to do a vertical loop?

I trimmed the plane out too, before each maneuver, to eliminate that as a possible problem.

I don't think this is a joystick issue (but I could be wrong) as this plane and the PP 6.1 A6M5 Zero are the only one's this seems happens to excessively, although the Yak seems borderline. The other aircraft will stall on the correctly in a steep bank turn when they lose enough speed then flip from the one wing stalling. I wanted to be sure so I just got done teting 10 different single engine fighters in the game.

Canopy issue- not an issue now, I now see why you have it that way.

I'd also like to hear from some other people. The thing is, I seem to only have this problem with the Yak, later zero, and this model of Corsair. One question- are you using the same joystick you used when you built the other Corsairs?

------------------
"Where'd he GO!?!?"
thunk-thunk-thunk-zing-OUCH
That answered my question

posted 03-06- 06:56 PM               

That said, I don't find it all that "twitchy" when I fly it, which brings me back to joysticks. I turned my sensitivity to "halfway" point, and the plane WAS probably too twitchy. I could still fight in it, but only because I have a lot of practice in it after all this time. My guess is that my joystick/port's "low sensitivity" point is somewhat less than yours.

There is a key point in the model for elevator authority. If I set it too low, you won't be able to generate enough G at low speed to continue to bleed off more speed, i.e. the plane will seek and maintain its "corner velocity" automatically, which I don't like. You can see this in some of the other planes, which can simply turn forever with impunity because they aren't capable of pulling "too many" Gs at low speeds. You also won't be able to get the plane to spin very well or torque roll at low speed, which was also one of its traits.

OTOH, if I set the authority too high, you get too much "instantaneous turn" at higher speeds, and, obviously, too sensitive a stick.

I'll see what I can do by toning down the elevator authority, but I'll probably preserve the ability to get the accelerated stall at high speed and energy bleed/torque roll at low speed.

P.S. same joystick used for all the models, but the earlier ones had lower elevator authority.

posted 03-06- 07:53 PM               

Thanks for continuing to lookinto this.

I understand what you're saying but it still seems the elevators apply too much force. I locked the F2 view to the side and attempted the loop without such a hard pull while watching the speed(HUD on). At the point of approximately 50% of the elevator range of movement from the horizontal, the plane flipped on its back. This time, instead of judging the joystick movement, I watched the elevator movement.

The angle of attack at this point during several tries was anywhere between 30-50 degrees and the speed was still well above 320mph. Elevator was applied rapidly at first and then more gently on each succesive try. The AOA and speed didn't seem to have as much bearing on this as the elevator movement.

I don't have the accelerated stall graph for the Corsair, so I don't know if this is correct or not. But the speed seems high enough it shouldn't stall at that point. Usually in an acceleratede stall one wing will dip first as it loses lift, and the flip/roll is pretty controllable(if you know what to expect). Since you have the most info, was this true on the Corsair?

Actually I'm very comfortable with using the accelerated stall or getting awfully close to it when fighting. It's a great lead in for a wing over or "flip turn" as Boyington used to call them. It's very handy in a B&Z fighter. Boom, then zoom, then wingover after you've bled off enough speed and gained enough altitude to do another B&Z pass. Good way to catch a Zero in a head on.

I clipped the maximum elevator response in the joystick programming to about 2/3 of what is possible and still suffered from the same problem, that was when I went to watching the elevators.

Let me try one more thing. I'm going to completely remove the installation of this bird and start again. When I installed the new beta of her I just overwrote the old files.

I do want to tell you that I really appreciate your patience with this and your willingness to look into it. It shows me and everyone else just how conscientious of the feedback you and the other developers are.

To be honest- I would like to see the Corsairs bleed more speed in a turn too. I'm being persistent (or maybe a pain in the arse ) because I know you've talked about applying these changes in varying degrees to the other Corsairs.

Thanks again for your responses. I'm trying to do whatever I can to eliminate the joystick issue. I'll have my son try it on his machine too. He has a Logitech Wingman 3D.

posted 03-07- 10:30 AM               

The plane is now less twitchy, but will still do the accelerated stall and roll at higher speeds. It will still spin, but is harder to spin at low speeds. It can still "self-bleed" its speed down to about 150 mph, at which point it loses G-authority to bleed down any farther (in a level turn).

That probably represents the max I can compromise on the stability without losing the undesireable handling traits. If I make the plane more stable (reducing the elevator authority to 50% produced a P-47-like steady platform, which IMO is all wrong for a Corsair) then it will neither spin nor bleed energy in a turn, which doesn't match up well with the historical picture of how a Corsair behaved. OTOH, it's pretty clear that for MY joystick, the sensitivity must be set to the lowest level to get a good "feel" in this plane, while other guys may not be able to set theirs that low and still play. So I have to have the plane at least controllable at the mid-range joystick sensitivity.

With the new values, I was able to fly dogfight missions at half-sensitivity against the AI without any significant "over-twitchiness," although the plane does require a fairly smooth hand when pulling Gs, or it will start to flip a bit.

I am concerned that you're able to get the plane to flip "accidentally" at such high speeds. I can only do this intentionally, i.e. sure, I can make it flip over--that's a "feature" I want it to do But I can also fly around all day in a fight and NOT have it do this, pulling G's anywhere from 0 to 8.

As an extreme measure, you could always modify the plane for offline use. It's a very simple "fix" in OPS. Only 2 property lines are effected, and you can tweak from "rock steady" to "hog on ice" in about 20 minutes testing

posted 03-08- 05:58 PM            

http://www.rcwarbirds.com/geebee

posted 03-08- 06:44 PM            

I'm a big realism guy, so I've always dreamed and begged for the canopy to be open when the mission starts then close.....that would feel so great at the beginning of a mission!!!! BIG question....can this be done to all other planes.....that would be killer!!!!!

posted 03-09- 05:45 AM               

I also can't make the F4 do a sharp turn - same as Jug Head. (...another Logitech Wingman)

posted 03-09- 12:49 PM               

As for the canopy, the only reason you see it do what it's doing is to enable the new bailout routine, where the canopy jettisons first. It will do the same thing on the ground. Not meant to be "realistic" per se, but not any more irritating than having the engine start in the air

Now, what we COULD do is run the canopy mechanism off of the landing gear, the way it works on the "non-player" aircraft in CFS2. When the gear is down, the canopy opens, and when the gear is retracted, the canopy closes. That way when the plane starts out on the ground, the canopy will be open, and when it starts in the air, it will be closed. The problem would be if you manually closed the canopy on the ground, then retracted the gear...the canopy would open.

Might have to experiment with that a bit...