Heres why dogfights are so strange in SDOE - FSIC Messageboard

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Heres why dogfights are so strange in SDOE

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Author	Topic: Heres why dogfights are so strange in SDOE
Snake Pilot	posted 02-23- 08:22 PM Whenever I read up on aircombat or study techniques or listen to others talk shop I always come across the fact that a continued hard turn will bleed speed. To maintain corner velocity you need to go nose down. Funny thing, SDOE doesn't seem to worry about this! In the Mustang you can sustain a 4g turn at 240~mp/h at 10,000ft FOREVER. Your speed will either rise of fall to about 250 and you will keep a constant altitude. In the Spit VB its lower, about 170 and the FW-190A4 around 160. I THINK (I'm no expert) that everything seems to keep its speed much more than it should. Like in a diving loop pulling as hard as possible starting at stall speed you shouldn't be able to pick up 300mp/h in one tight loop. I find this very strange. I don't think its a problem with the planes, just the game engine. What do you think? Go try it for yourselves. Snake Disclaimer: SDOE = pinnacle of WW2 sims = the best there ever was and every will be. IP: Logged
ArgonV Pilot	posted 02-23- 08:29 PM Actually, in some of the farther along WWI areoplanes, speed bleed in turning is apparent and part of what the WWI FM guys try to achieve. IP: Logged
Snake Pilot	posted 02-23- 08:49 PM Yep but those are few and far between! IP: Logged
Nat Pilot	posted 02-23- 08:51 PM Snake, this is apart of the talk I had on air density.. in SDOE this is modeled but it only affects airfoils, so, what should happen is that at higher altitude the thinner air effects engine output. Example of this is the La-5FN, at sea level it has 1850bph, but due to thinner air at altitudse it should only put out 1380bph, but this isn't modeled in SDOE, so you end up still having 1850bph at altitude, meaning.. turns are easier to hold, you've got 500bph more from your engine than you would have in reality! This is also why it's almost impossible to get a perfect FM in SDOE, you have to much power at altitude, get the speed right high up, and it's wrong low down, and vice versa, and this all ties into the climb rate aswell. Unless Bryan is able to do anything about this for the patch then what you're seeing will always be there, there's no way around it right now, the way to fix your problem would be to add more drag to simulate the loss of power due to altitude, but you can't cause it will screw up all the speeds. ~Nat~ IP: Logged
Wiley Baggins Cadet	posted 02-23- 08:57 PM Is the implication that the original(stock) flight models manifest this behavior as part of the "dumbing down" of the flight model that has been mentioned? If so, what steps have the WWI modelers taken to correct this? I would assume that it is associated with drag modeling. Is this a correct assumption? Thanks Bob PS...OT: I had asked in another (more appropriate) thread if anyone knew of any successful hacking of Fighter Duel (FD). Any thoughts? IP: Logged
Wiley Baggins Cadet	posted 02-23- 09:02 PM Well Nat, I should have held off, and I would have seen you air density post. Is it possible to alter the engine HP/altitude curve* with functions in the way that some CFS aircraft are modified (albeit not as fundementally, to my knowledge) with "gauges?" Thanks Bob *My apologies for what I assume is an old hat question to the long time SDOE cadre. [This message has been edited by Wiley Baggins (edited 02-23-2001).] IP: Logged
Nat Pilot	posted 02-23- 09:23 PM this is something I've been thinking about a helluva lot cause it really affects my curent projects, but so far I can't see any way to do it. I'm pretty sure that this isn't such a great problem for WW1 aircraft since top speed and max altitude are som low by comparisson the difference is minimal, but we'll keep on looking for an answer IP: Logged
MudEye1 Pilot	posted 02-23- 10:54 PM I'm not sure exactly what Wiley is asking about FD.But WOW that was my favorite all time Flight sim.Besides the tail gunners in 1942 gold.--Mud-- IP: Logged
Sv Pilot	posted 02-24- 12:23 AM Actually some WWI planes flew up to almost 20,000 often I started hacking the WWI airfoils when some people wanted more e-bleed. All I did was to add more drag at higher angles of attack. This got e-bleed indeed, but at a cost. This killed the glide... becuase to fly slow you need more AOA, and I had too much drag there- so the planes dropped like stones Funny, I just had a looong talk with Pang about e-bleed and elevator airMax settings... and my feeling that the tails are created too effective in some planes in order to force the wings into the stall AOA range- to getaccelerated stalls and snap rolls. But the side-effect is an overly nimble aircraft - and too sensative on the controls. Something seems to be missing... not necasarily in SDOE, but in my mind Reall I think the secrets are hidden in the enigma of the propeller properties and airfoil. I have taken to creating all my initial FM work while in a glide, no engine. This is flight... the prop adds a whole new dimension. Indeed, if you have over-power then e-bleed is hidden - this is compounded by what Nat has pointed out as well. When you think of it, trying to climb is a form of e-bleed, but the prop defeats it. The same thing happens in a steep turn. So to talk about turn rate and e-bleed in turns, you MUST concern yourself with the prop and engine as well as the air foil aircraft aerodynamics. The main trouble is that people talk about e-bleed all the time, but there are really no e-bleed stats for us to use, it is all very subjective. IMO, e-bleed is over-romatisized. Sure, it exists as a fact, but how much, and what are its exact effects on over all aircraft performance? ------------------ -Sv Wings with Wires IP: Logged
Sv Pilot	posted 02-24- 12:30 AM BTW, ALL aircraft have energy bleed- if you define energy bleed as the drag created because of higher aongles of attack in turns. Every airfoil has more drag at high AOA's, so all aircraft bleed more energy in turns. But if you define e-bleed as a net loss of energy in a turn - meaning that the thrust does not add as much energy as is taken away by the drag inducved by the turn, then I think most aircraft do not bleed energy in tight turns. Right now you are going to lose more energy in a turn compared with going strait... but how much more is the question... ------------------ -Sv Wings with Wires IP: Logged
Nat Pilot	posted 02-24- 04:17 AM good point SV, this is a problem I faced, then left out completely LOL, see the thing is, the La-5FN was supposedly a supurb close combat fighter, almost made for tight dogfights, but get this.. in some of the stats I gathered I found this: Turn Time: 18.5 seconds OK, what turn? like a 180? or even a 360? Let me tell you, other than bombers I don't know of any aircraft that take that long to turn and this is supposed to be one of the highest performance fighters of the war, and if this anything like meaning a 180 or 360, then that implies to me that our aircraft turn just way to fast in turns.. still.. how the hell do you slow it down without screwing tyhe whole FM..thats another question completely lol IP: Logged
Flash Gordon Pilot	posted 02-24- 04:55 AM While we're on the topic... ...are there are any "wind tunnel" type programs out there which allow you to plug in a three dimensional model of a plane and spews out numbers which one can then use to tweek flight models in sims? IP: Logged
Snake Pilot	posted 02-24- 10:33 AM Maybe all the numbers in Openplane are not scaled to real world values. ie if you give a plane 1,000hp then Openplane sees it as 1,500hp. Maybe?? Snake IP: Logged

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