is somebody working on the FM's? I feel like I am flying this

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Author	Topic: is somebody working on the FM's? I feel like I am flying this
bolillo_loco Pilot	posted 01-14- 08:27 PM I noticed that the planes I have flown online usually dont meet their speed at altitude nor climb rates at altitudes, is somebody working on fixing this? you can hit a point when the plane will not speed up or climb and your only at 5,000ft. IP: Logged
bolillo_loco Pilot	posted 01-14- 08:31 PM sorry, It didnt work, but anyway it flys like a cessna 180 man. climbs at 1,500fpm. IP: Logged
Razer Pilot	posted 01-14- 08:39 PM make sure you have everything on (but unlimited ammo and fuel) and pervetn stalls off. and what plane are you flying? do you have the 1.5 patch and the Planepack? many things come into effect when flying, Factory CD planes did fly like that, but new planes don't.. ------------------ Tony "Razer" Martin "Making SDOE a dangerous Place, One plane at a time!" FS Hangar IP: Logged
bolillo_loco Pilot	posted 01-15- 12:53 AM well, I can fly online with fast and casualty. I have the pp6.0 and nations. dont ask me to tell you all the things I have cause I spent hours downloading stuff. For some reason they keep sticking me in a 38 and it wont climb at what its suppose to. no external stores. it is 50 mph too slow at sea level. it does around 300 mph. Hey can you get me one of these? IP: Logged
bolillo_loco Pilot	posted 01-15- 12:55 AM well, I can fly online with fast and casualty. I have the pp6.0 and nations. dont ask me to tell you all the things I have cause I spent hours downloading stuff. For some reason they keep sticking me in a 38 and it wont climb at what its suppose to. no external stores. it is 50 mph too slow at sea level. it does around 300 mph. Hey can you get me one of these? IP: Logged
Razer Pilot	posted 01-15- 01:32 AM heheh i found that pic weeks ago and painted one for Warbirds 3. The P-38 is one of those planes that never really got a good FM. FM work is always hard since hard data is sometimes different from what people "think" it should fly like. People ready pilto accounts then think it should fly a certain way then we a FM is done and it's based on hard data they think it's wrong. I'm sure your basing the speed thing on hard data. The P-38 is currently undergoing major rework with a new model i did and new FM and DM stuf included making the tail stronger. I'm look forward to it being released. ------------------ Tony "Razer" Martin "Making SDOE a dangerous Place, One plane at a time!" FS Hangar IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 01-15- 02:38 AM Actually the p38 is spot on, although the top speed was calibrated to regular max speed not wep speed. It does have a problem climbing steeply at slow speed at high altitude though. TS [This message has been edited by Tailslide (edited 01-15-2001).] IP: Logged
wakeup tailgunner Pilot	posted 01-15- 04:53 AM One thing I read about the P38 too When in combat, keep your speed above 200mph and don't get too low. Get caught low and slow and you are dead. P38's need energy to fly. They don't accelerate too well, and are easy meat if you get sucked into a slow turning fight....especially against Zero's.... IP: Logged
jedi Pilot	posted 01-15- 11:27 AM One thing I've noticed is that "drag" is very poorly (or at least very "oddly") modeled in the sim. Often, to get a plane to fly the right speed or bleed energy you have to add a HUGE "pseudo-airfoil" to generate drag. Which means that the basic OP system and the shapes of the aircraft model can't do it properly. A side effect of this is that some of the planes don't (won't?) climb at their "best climb speed" at more than about 1000 fpm. So you'll never match the time-to-climb numbers. BUT, take that same plane, accelerate to about 200 mph, and THEN climb, and you'll get 5000 fpm up to 10000 ft!!! Go on, try it Climb at 160 or 170, and you'll be suckin wind by 5000 ft. Climb at 200-220, and you'll be in the space shuttle A secondary problem is that this changes drastically between 6000 and 10000 feet, to a more "predictable" behavior where the plane DOES seem to climb best at its "best" climb speed. Which makes it very tough to get BOTH time-to-10000 and time-to-20000 climbs "right." I guess it could also be in the prop modeling, but it's definitely an oddity. Anyway, until someone can figure out a workaround, I basically calibrate for climb at 200 mph rather than "best climb speed," because if you calibrate for "real" time-to-climb at 160 mph, and the guy decides to go 200 instead, he's going to be able to climb at 6000 fpm or some BS amount. Haven't tested this on pp6.0 planes yet, but several of the 5.3 planes can reach 10000 ft in 2 minutes. In RL only a couple of planes were capable of this. ------------------ --jedi-- [This message has been edited by jedi (edited 01-15-2001).] IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 01-15- 12:28 PM It's not drag thats causing this, it's the propeller blades stalling. It's fixable but takes alot of time to fix if you want your climb to alt times right. It basically involves increasing the width of the inner part of the blade and decreasing the width of the outer part. Thats how i got the 190a4 to climb better steeply in 5.4 without altering the sustained climb from 5.3. TS [This message has been edited by Tailslide (edited 01-15-2001).] IP: Logged
Maury Markowitz Pilot	posted 01-15- 12:38 PM quote: Originally posted by Tailslide: It's not drag thats causing this, it's the propeller blades stalling. Cool! How'd you figure that out? OOC, when I look at the airfoil curves, they seem odd to me. There seems to be a lot of lift at odd alpha's, like 90. Have these been massaged as well? Maury IP: Logged
Snickers Pilot	posted 01-15- 01:56 PM Yes the FM is being worked on... In addition to setting power to WEP, there was an airfoil efficiency change that Tail sent me that will be included.... I will look at the props and see if that may be part of the problem.... NO, the tail is not being made stronger. It is howerver being remodeled. (The net result will be a tail that can be damaged without taking the both the VStab and HStab out at the same time....). BTW - The LW captured the P38 you have shown the pictures of, but only used it for training. Italy on the other hand, captured one and used it in attacks against the Allies (nothing said about how well that tactic succeded). ------------------ Snickers =FC= IP: Logged
Biggles3 Pilot	posted 01-15- 02:05 PM RAZER is there any chance that the re-modled p38 will look as sweet as the one from wrbirds 3?????? ------------------ WHATCH YOU TAIL;) IP: Logged
weasel Pilot	posted 01-15- 02:53 PM Last word that I got was that Snickers is working on the P-38. From the previews she looks awsome! weasel IP: Logged
bolillo_loco Pilot	posted 01-15- 04:39 PM thats interesting wake up tailgunner. if the P-38J/L had poor turing ability, acceleration, climb etc, and speed bleed. what do you think the rest of the planes were like? The P-38 was americas best climbing, turning, and accelerating plane made and used by the us armed forces. only the very late model F4U-4 (which almost missed ww 2 because of their late entry date into ww 2 of june 45) could match the P-38 for climb, but the corsair was still out turned and accelerated by the P-38J. I am trying to get ahold of some hard data from lockheed on the late model P-38L with 1,725hp per engine. it is claimed that this model would climb in the 4,500-4,800fpm range and did 444 mph @ 25k. the 38 should bleed the least amount of speed during maneuvers at and below 300mph ias. IP: Logged
bolillo_loco Pilot	posted 01-15- 04:41 PM duh, yea nice work on that german 38 razer. it just looks kool with german markings, I guess cause its so different looking IP: Logged
jedi Pilot	posted 01-15- 09:11 PM TS said: "It's fixable but takes alot of time to fix if you want your climb to alt times right. It basically involves increasing the width of the inner part of the blade and decreasing the width of the outer part." Or... I could, like, just steal the prop off of the FW-190, right? ------------------ --jedi-- IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 01-15- 09:19 PM If you want the climb rates to be off, sure IP: Logged
bolillo_loco Pilot	posted 01-15- 09:36 PM I will have to try it offline. I quickly gave up on the game because the plane flys like a hot air ballon. when you take off it wont climb at all. you can get to a point where you seem to be doing 100mph cant climb nor accelerate so your just hanging there like a ballon. if this is an fm bug of sorts then thats probably why I dont like the game very much. I will try it off line and see whats up IP: Logged
bolillo_loco Pilot	posted 01-15- 10:32 PM ok, tired two planes out. my altitude on the runway was 600ft. I took off in the 38 and timed it from the brake release. it picks up speed very very slow. from the deck to 16,700ft (where I got bored cause it didnt climb for shit) it climbed from 1,500fpm to a whopping 2,000fpm. it took me 9 minutes to reach 16,700ft. I then dove it and it hit 550mph and when I pulled up a bit the wing broke off. thats a slow rate of climb. at 21,600lbs a real lightning would climb at that pace, but under a low power setting. I was under full power the whole time. this plane would do 300mph on the deck full power. a real 38J would do 312 mph under 44" of MP which was max continuous. the F4U-4B. what a rocket. I took off and climbed 6,000fpm for 3 minutes and hit 18,000ft. I then dove and hit a kool 640mph and pulled out no probs. it did 380mph on the deck and when I pushed the stick forward a bit it did queer stuff and started going faster till at 620mph I lost control. I was at 800ft 380mph and got to 620mph wow what a plane! hehe. IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 01-15- 10:34 PM When I tested it I was able to achieve the sustained climb numbers I have for the p38. Don't forget that SDOE shows true air speed not indicated air speed to you will have to make your speed go up the higher you get to remain at the same IAS and get optimum climb rate. TS [This message has been edited by Tailslide (edited 01-15-2001).] IP: Logged
lfbpro Pilot	posted 01-16- 05:35 AM Wakeup Tailgunner! The P-38 accelerated very well in fact i you want to see what i mean have look to the factory film avalaible at zeno's warbird video it's very well explained their. Bolillo loco: I think you're right i played the P-38 too online recently and i was unable to fight correctly during 10 min i was unable to have even one fighter in front of me it reminds me the Spit V of the PP5.2 if my memory is still ok,stall,spin climb a little ,stall spin etc,etc... Kind of boring. ------------------ -=BAB=-lfbpro IP: Logged
bolillo_loco Pilot	posted 01-16- 06:44 AM well then it is my game, cause I am not that stupid, yes I know its in IAS. In my game with plane pack 6.0 My P-38 climbs at 1,500fpm at 140-180mph ias. the F4U-4B will climb at 6,000fpm. infact I found it hard to keep this plane under 200mph in a steep climb and it accelerates very well as opposed to the 38J/L thats odd also cause the 38J/L was suppose to accelerate faster than the -4 corsair. IP: Logged
Zurawski Pilot	posted 01-16- 08:37 AM OK, I admit it... "I'm the guilty party". If the 38 has not been touched since 5.3... It's hobbled by the FM I gave it. It's been quite a while since I abandoned that bastard FM, however I do recall it's top speed was calibrated to a specific altitude (don't recall what that was off hand...) Same goes for the turn-speed and the roll. Truth be told, at that time I wasn't testing for climb-speed nor max altitude. Which explains why the climb is so piss-poor and it cannot reach it's max alt. "I'm to blame"... Now someone please fix it so I don't have to be reminded of my failure! IP: Logged
jedi Pilot	posted 01-16- 10:41 AM Don't use the F4U-4 as your comparison measure. I never "calibrated" it for anything except top level speed. It really would do about 380 on the deck, and would easily outrun any P-38L (but you're right, the 38 should accelerate faster--again, that's a fault in the Corsair, not the P-38). As for going 640 in a dive, it DID fall apart then, didn't it? If you went 640 in level flight, you flew off the map edge, so don't draw any conclusions from that The F4U-1D would be a better "test" model to compare against, as its FM is more accurate, but you'd still do better to use one of the planes Zur or Tailslide worked on, such as the FW-190s or P-47. The Corsairs are getting an overhaul, but you'll have to be patient. Also, it takes about 5 minutes to download the Open Plane Studio software, about 5 more minutes to find and download Tailslide's FM tweaking tips, and about 10 minutes to figure out how OPS works. Armed with those two pieces of equipment, you too can be a Flight Model Expert (tm). If you think a plane doesn't work right, by all means, MAKE it work right! The rest of us will be eternally grateful, I'm sure, because no one could possibly hope to tweak ALL the planes we have now to "perfect" performance. ------------------ --jedi-- IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 01-16- 11:45 AM No bollio, its not in IAS its in TAS. Its a bug in SDOE IP: Logged
Snickers Pilot	posted 01-16- 12:52 PM bolillo_loco - As a point of curiosity, when you are climbing, what does the rate of climb guage say? There is a particular angle (as there is for every plane, and yes, they differ) that the 38 is most effective in climing at. Also, dont be in a rush to get off the ground. If you can pick up speed there, its easier to gain altitude, rather than zooming off as soon as you can then trying to climb and gain speed at the same time. ------------------ Snickers =FC= [This message has been edited by Snickers (edited 01-16-2001).] IP: Logged
bolillo_loco Pilot	posted 01-16- 06:34 PM while I am not the smartest person out there, I cannot help but get a bit upset with people who say, if you would only do this the plane would climb better etc etc. two people above stated that it does not climb well because it is in the planes fm. I dont care how fast you get that plane going. 350mph after a dive and you climb at 1,500 - 2,000 fpm on the gauge and you will slow down until your speed drops below 150mph. and it doesnt take you long to loose your speed to 150 mph from 350 mph. less than 5,000ft. I am also aware that the -4 corsair does 370-380 mph tas on the deck real life, but 6,000 fpm climb, thats a bit out there. it will do that to 18,000ft. and easily reached 18k in only 3 minutes. thats even better than the post war test of the cosair running 150+ octain and higher mp than the stock -4. in that test 4,700 fpm climb sticks in my head. with 3,800-3,900 fpm being max for a ww2 era -4 corsair. I dove the -4B to 640 mph more than once and nothing happened to the plane. it was easy to do and no damage occured to the plane in any of the several dives at that speed. I dont know what happened with the level speed of 620 mph on the deck with the -4B. I was in the cockpit and went to the external view while I was doing 370-390 mph at 800ft. I dove it gently to get as close to 0 as I could. but the hud was still on and I could see what was going on. it just started picking up speed like crazy 500 then 550 but around 600 something happened and I began to loose control until it finally showed around 620 and I lost it. total red out and when it went away the corsair was crashed. I am not very useful at flight model alterations. I do not know very much about computers, I was just curious if anybody was working on them and noticed large errors like I did. hey maybe it is just my game and nobody else is experiencing this, it is very buggy and hard to enjoy when played. IP: Logged
Stark Pilot	posted 01-16- 07:05 PM Bollilo - The instance you describe of the speed suddenly jumping way up followed by loss of control and red out describes perfectly what happens whn you fly off the edge of the map. AT the edge of the map there is a VERY strong wind that blows towards the center of the map - this results in a sudden jump in airspeed (due to the wind speed being included I believe) and eventually the wind gets so strong that your aircraft literally tumbles out of the sky. Nobody is trying to say that the FM of the 38 is perfect. Nobody is claiming that the FM of the F4 is perfect. Due toi the complexity of designing a FM in OpenPlane most designers have done there best and tweaked one or two items of the FM to match historical specs - like 380 level for the F4. They did not calibrate the climb so that's why you see that 6000fpm rocket. Doing the FM is probably the most complicated thing in SDOE - you could (and some have) spend weeks doing nothing but the FM and still not have it perfect. -Stark IP: Logged
bolillo_loco Pilot	posted 01-16- 09:09 PM so that happens when you fly off the edge of the map, then they were right, the world is flat and when you go off it bad things happen hehehe. Ok I think we all know the FMs are goofed and that they are hard to do. thats all I was looking for. a straight answer no more. and thank you! the fm changes are hard enough to make them beyond my abilities so I cannot help at all. I only can provide data and thats it. I am not knocking anybodies work or saying that its easy to do etc etc. I just wanted a straight answer and wondered if anybody was trying to correct the problems. thats all. thank you for your time and effort and this thread is dead IP: Logged
jedi Pilot	posted 01-17- 01:52 AM Hmmm. Just for grins, I just tested the P-38J in PP5.3 and PP6.0 versions. Takeoff training mission, no ordnance. Plane seems a little slow at low altitude, but it IS a J, not an L. I could only get about 300 out of it on the deck (and I didn't test for max speed at altitude). As for climb, both versions will maintain between 3500 and 4000 fpm, from the surface up to at least 12000 ft, where I terminated the test. All that is necessary is to maintain a climb speed of 198-202 mph and you can climb pretty much indefinitely at 3000+ fpm. Data I've got says time-to-climb to 20K is 7 minutes. Or about 3000 fpm. Seems pretty reasonable to me. And well short of "goofed" actually At least on my system. ------------------ --jedi-- IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 01-17- 02:11 AM That sounds about right.. it was calibrated for max continuous power not wep. the pilots manual lists these speeds for max cont power 44" or 1,100hp at a combat weight of 17,400lbs mph ias mph tas alt. ft. 252 or 388 30,000 264 or 374 25,000 277 or 361 20,000 290 or 348 15,000 297 or 340 12,000 302 or 331 9,000 307 or 321 6,000 311 or 311 3,000 314 or 302 S.L. IP: Logged
bolillo_loco Pilot	posted 01-17- 02:59 AM I wonder whats wrong with my game? no wonder I hate sdoe so much my version is either missing something or my system just doesnt like it. maybe if fast and casualty read this thread they will then see why I hate sdoe so much. my 38 and most other planes wont break 2,000fpm at full power while everybody else is getting better perforance. well thanks guys for the help. I see it is only my game. it would never install right either from the get go. 7 minutes to 20,000ft is not a max rate of climb under full power to that altitude for either a J or an L. thats for a climb under normal rated power IP: Logged
Bishop Pilot	posted 01-17- 03:00 AM Just out of curiosity... What airspeed (TAS or IAS) is usually quoted as top speed in most books (ie Janes)? IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 01-17- 03:07 AM I believe this is what the climb rates were calibrated to: climb 5K 2 min 10K in 4 min 15K in 5 min 25K in 9 min 35K in 15 min All books quote TAS unless they state otherwise. The actual speed guage in the plane would show IAS except in SDOE it shows TAS for some reason. IAS is a better indicator of your stall speed and best climb speed. The p38 as is now needs to be going faster to reach optimum climb than the real p38 this should be addressed but overall I think it is a lot closer than most planes in SDOE. TS IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 01-17- 03:10 AM Those climb numbers are for military power not wep power. Bollilo try uninstalling SDOE, deleting the directory and reinstalling the game plus nations v2 and plane pack 6. It may help.. TS [This message has been edited by Tailslide (edited 01-17-2001).] IP: Logged
bolillo_loco Pilot	posted 01-17- 04:46 AM aye chihuahua, uninstall the game and re do all those patches. man thats a full day! thank you tail slide for your help. hey check out these short videos of lefty in his 38L. if you have a full lenght video of him, its not worth the 2-5 min download at each site for the 2 videos. cheap free insight to the 38s rate of roll. both videos are close to the bottom of the page. http://www.aoe.vt.edu/aoe/faculty/Mason_f/fdiproject/fdiproj.html http://www.aoe.vt.edu/aoe/faculty/Mason_f/fdiproject/fdiproj.html IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 01-17- 10:33 AM Cool video ! Those rolls are pretty sluggish! TS IP: Logged
bolillo_loco Pilot	posted 01-17- 07:12 PM thats odd, I didnt notice the plane being sluggish. rolled 90 or 180 paused and did another 90 to 180 he was doing a 2 or 4 point roll. it looked like it rolled about 90 degrees a second to me. IP: Logged
weasel Pilot	posted 01-18- 01:09 PM I found this data in Martin Cadin's book 'Fork-Tailed Devil: the P38' : "Maximum speeds for the P-38J-5/15 at combat weight are listed as 360 mph at 5,000 feet; 390 mph at 15,000 feet; 421 mph at 25,000 feet; and 426 mph at 30,000 feet." "The rate of climb improved sharply over earlier models. Again at standard combat weight, the airplane had a rate of climb of 3,900 feet per minute at 5,000 feet; 3,600 feet per minute at 15,000; and 3,100 feet per minute at 25,000 feet. Interesting; the J model had a better rate of climb at 25,000 feet than any earlier model at any altitude. The J series reached 5,000 feet from a standing take off in 1.4 minutes; 15,000 feet in 4.3 minutes; and 25,000 feet in 7.8 minutes." weasel IP: Logged

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