posted 01-13- 04:03 AM               

Ever wonder why Jug pilots LOVED their machines, even though the Mustang was much more maneuverable?

The supposed "problem" is the reason why- That flying tank would get-em home.
Ever read the story about, Robert Johnson, author of Thunderbolt?

Here's an excerpt form the book;
"June 26, 1943 mission details:
Early in the morning forty-eight Thunderbolts took off from the advanced base at Manston . . . They flew up, over the Channel, into France, and soon spotted sixteen Fw-190s. Before Johnson could communicate or coordinate with his flight, he was hit. 20mm cannon shells ripped through his plane, smashing the canopy, punching holes in the plane, and inspiring in Johnson an overwhelming urge to bail out. More explosions smashed the plane, and Johnson's frantic "Mayday!" calls drew no response. Fire began to envelope the cockpit.

The Thunderbolt spun crazily out of his control . . . As he struggled vainly with the canopy, the engine fire miraculously went out, but he could hardly see, as oil spewed back from the battered engine. . .

Trapped inside the P-47, he next decided to try to crash-land and evade. . . his thoughts came back into focus and he realized that the aircraft was still flying fairly well. He headed back for England, counting on his high altitude to help him make a long, partially-powered glide back home.

The instrument panel was shattered. The wind constantly blew more oil and hydraulic fluid into his cut up face and eyes. . . He and his plane were horribly shot up, but incredibly he was still alive. He made for the Channel, desperate to escape the heavily defended enemy territory.

Swiveling constantly, he froze in horror as he spotted a plane approaching him, an Fw-190, beautifully painted in blue with a yellow cowling. Johnson was totally helpless, and just had to wait for the German to get him in his sights and open up. The German closed in, taking his time with the crippled American fighter. Johnson hunched down behind his armor-plated seat, to await the inevitable. The German opened up, spraying the plane with 30-caliber machine gun fire, not missing, just pouring lead into the battered Thunderbolt. Johnson kicked his rudder left and right, slowing his plane to a crawl, and fired back as the German sped out in front of him.

The Focke-Wulf . . . circled back, this time pulling level with him. The pilot examined the shattered Thunderbolt all over, looking it up and down, and shook his head in mystification. He banked, pulled up behind Johnson again, and opened up with another burst. Somehow the rugged Republic-built aircraft stayed in the air. The German pulled alongside again, as they approached the southern coast of the Channel. . . As they went out over the Channel, the German get behind and opened up again, but the P-47 kept flying. Then he pulled up alongside, rocked his wings in salute, and flew off, before they reached the English coast. Johnson had survived the incredible, point-blank machine gun fire, but still had to land the plane. He contacted Mayday Control by radio, who instructed him to climb if he can. The battered plane climbed, and after more communication, headed for his base at Manston. Landing was touch and go, as he had no idea if the landing gear would work. The wheels dropped down and locked and he landed safely."

From Thunderbolt! by Robert Johnson, Hnoribus Press Sept 1997

This book is still in print, BTW

MG's are nice .50's are nicer, but you need cannons if you want ot be sure you can take out a Jug. (BIG cannons work better )

posted 01-13- 04:23 AM               

TS

posted 01-13- 01:07 PM               

I recall an account recalled by Gabreski (sp?)...

(foot note version)... He took damage to his 47 in damage an engagement... was persued by a 190 over the channel... the LW pilot keeps making runs on him... keep pulling up in formation with the 47 to check if he'd killed the pilot... All the while Gabreski was hunkered down behind his armor plating... 190 pilot eventually exhausted his ammo... waggled his wing and headed back the Germany. Gabreski, made it back to England (barely)... the aicraft was an absolute loss.

OK, some of that may ultimately been "spiced up" to facilitate the story... I however cannot doubt the toughness of the 47.

posted 01-13- 02:25 PM               

It isn't something that can ever be modelled in any form; we know that when we take up the same plane as a opponent, the plane parts are equal; the differences are the pilot skill and experience and the system being used. There is no doubt the 47 was a tough plane, and in the hands of a determined pilot, would survive. So would many others, though perhaps not as often...some things we just cannot simulate, like that and the slight differences say in P47 #1 that rolled off assembly at 9 am and P47 # 2 that rolled out at 9:01am. Same plane...yes. But different? Quite possibly.

Sorry for the ramble...this thread just got me thinking of that. It helps me to think that when one of our many good online pilots has just sculpted his handle in the wing of my Spit and I have to turn to my trusty chute.

------------------
nealg=FC=

posted 01-13- 02:46 PM               

All it really goes to prove is if you number isnt up, you don't go.

posted 01-13- 05:09 PM               

Many of the stories I remember about P-47's going down in air engagements were due most often to engine damage (thanks again Condor!) and pilot injury / death.

The airframe was like a B-17's, it could take unbelievable amounts of damage. Pilots that relate stories of having to bailout due to wing damage, etc, usually talk about huge holes and chunks blown off by cannons. In Robert Johnson's case, the 190 he ran into after being so badly damaged was out of cannon ammo. He admitted he wouldn't have survived those kinds of attacks if the 190 had a load of 20mm rounds.

My point being- the Jug could be shot down, but it was MUCH more difficult if all you had were MG rounds.

posted 01-15- 01:15 AM               

"Spirit of Atlantic City NJ" - Major Walker M. "Bud" Mahurin, 63rd FS, 56th FG
Bud Mahurin is one of the nicest of the aces; a long-time supporter of the Air Museum, "Planes of Fame," in Chino, he has no trouble telling anyone that "I've crashed every airplane I ever flew." Rather than a monument to ham-handedness, this statement is rather a self-deprecating way of talking about the fact he was one of the most aggressive pilots in the U.S. Air Force, constantly flying his airplanes to "the edge of the envelope" and putting himself where danger was. He joined the USAAF in late 1940, and was one of the first pilots assigned to the 56th Fighter Group in late 1941 when it was still equipped with P-40s. The group was destined to become the premier exponent of the P-47 Thunderbolt from the day they took their first one on charge in the summer of 1942 to the end of the war in Europe. The 4th Fighter Group may have destroyed more enemy aircraft in total, but the 56th Fighter Group was the #1 air combat unit of the USAAF in the Second World War, with a greater number of aces than any other group, including the two top-scoring USAAF aces of the European Theatre, Lt. Col. Francis S. Gabreski and Capt. Robert S. Johnson. Bud was the first pilot of the 56th to win the Silver Star, and had scored triple victories on three occasions in his tour. Newly promoted to Major, he had 21 victories on March 27, 1944, when he was shot down by the rear gunner of a Do217 he was attacking.

Tough to land too:

Friday July 16, 1943
Another crash today! We were simulating low fuel landings…when just ahead of me a P47 flipped over on it’s approach and slammed into the ground. I had a perfect view. It scared the hell out of me! I pulled up, went around and landed on the other runway. After we landed, Captain Clark called us together and told us that we’d be flying solo split missions tomorrow. Nothing said about the crash.

posted 01-15- 04:58 AM               

Anyone fancy building one.....hmmm...should be ok on rough landing strips...

posted 01-15- 02:27 PM               

Tail, the K and later versions of the Do-217 had FOUR fixed rearward firing guns in the tail. Other wise it didn't have a tailgunner, and niether did the Do-17. Just the rearward firing guns from the belly and upper canopy.

With the engine damage mod, I think it wouldn't be too difficult to knock down an aggressive (read gets in close) pilot making a tail attack. With between 4 and 6 machine guns emptying lead into the engine (the biggest target on P-47 when facing it's nose)
I doubt if it would last too long in SDOE.

posted 01-15- 05:30 PM               

If it always takes more than half my 50 cal rounds in a p47 with 8 guns to shoot down another p47 I doubt I would be able to do any lethal damage with fewer of the smaller german guns.

Bjorn.. the first crack at a DM for the Yak i wound up with something that worked great offline but was unkillable online. I'm not sure what it is but it seems like things that work offline don't always work online. I don't mean any disrespect to the great work you've done, maybe when we get killable pilots this wont be such an issue.. a big long blast into the top of the canopy from plan view will do something then..

TS

posted 01-15- 07:37 PM               

It seems to have just landed on some tank treads, or that is some sort of plane mover if the gear was damaged.