posted 11-29- 03:55 PM               

Yes, it's a sun. Yes, it is always in the same position in the sky (although it is only visible from inside the plane). Yes, other planes can be 'hidden' behind it.

Now ask me how it was done !

-Gecko =FC=

posted 11-29- 03:59 PM               

Hey Geck, I wouldn't know how you did it even if you explained it to me , but didn't Laika work on something like this awhile back? Any chance this can be put into the game proper? Whats the trick?

Gimmeee!!!!

posted 11-29- 04:33 PM               

Also, if you have it in an online mission, will the other flyers see it in the same spot?

Is it something added by the mission editor?

Sorry for the questions, but it's the Sun for crying out loud!

posted 11-30- 12:24 AM               

This sun idea is awesome! The lack of same has been one of my main beefs with sdoe for a long time, so to see it addressed so well only makes me want to stick with this game more!

To echo a comment above however, how does that work with online play?

Werner
"Beware of the Hun in the Sun!"

posted 11-30- 12:57 AM               

:Thinking to himself... Is this even possible and if it was that easy why hasnt anyone else thought of it?:

posted 11-30- 04:49 AM               

The sun could be made standing very high above the theater, but this would only create an additional object without much impact on the gameplay itself, and there are issues with fogging and clipping assiciated with it when you move accross the theater, though I believe these can be addressed with appropriate LOD/Texture flags.

What I was after, was creating a the whiteout effect (what you called lens flare, ZooL, but lens flare is another thing as explained by others), which would make the planes arriving from the side of the sun less visible. While we cannot directly control the lighting in the sim, I went for the second best solution, namely a semitransparent screen ('sun') close to the viewpoint, which would partially shield the objects that are positioned in the direction of the sun with respect to the viewpoint. That's why it is so large (the above pictures are zoomed out a lot), as it doesn't merely simulate the sun object, but its effect on eyesight as well. I've also made it a bit more whiteish now, but it couldn't be completely white as SDOE didn't display it then, and for the above pictures I initially overdid it a bit with the yellow .

The problem with this approach is that the 'sun' needs to be close to the viewpoint all the time, and it's only possible if it's a part of the plane object. On the other hand, all the children of the plane object rotate along with it, so the 'sun' would change position all the time.

Tailslide, you got the general idea correctly (I'm impressed at your insight!). It's slightly more involved, though. How the problem of movement is solved is that we need to perform the inverse rotation of the 'sun' to the rotation of the plane, so it will always stay in the same position. Basically, this makes the 'sun' an oversized artificial horizon ball (as seen in Jane's F/A-18, for example). For the technically challenged ( ), the following paragraph can be skipped.

How it is done is that the 'sun' is actually a cascade of three CDial objects. CDial can read the heading, pitch and roll of the desired object. These variables define the orientation of the plane, and are executed in the order given. What the cascade of CDial objects needs to do is to perform the opposite rotations in the opposite order (inverse roll first, then inverse pitch, inverse, heading), and the 'sun' will always keep position where we want it to be.

Currently, the sun is associated with the plane object, but I think associating it with the pilot object would be better, as the pilot is shared amongst the planes and it would then work for all of them.

Now, the issues.

The first issue is that the CDial reaction is slightly delayed. This means that during vigorous plane movement the sun is being slightly shifted. I tried playing with ROC values for the CDial, but it wasn't completely eliminated. However, I don't believe this is much of an issue, as the shifts are small and happen only when everything else is also moving around, so it's hardly noticeable.

The sun is always there as it is an plane/pilot subobject. It cannot be toggled with the mission editor, unless someone figures out if it's possible to associate it with a loadout. I'm not sure how it will look with the clouds, but it definitely will not be hidden behind them.

If all planes have the 'sun' added, it will appear at the same position in the sky for all of them, as each plane will be looking at it's own version. 'Suns' of other planes (or from outside views) cannot be seen, as they have a very low LOD switchin value, meaning that they are only visible from the pilot position.

Another thing this could lead to is a gradient horizon, as a domelike object could be placed over the viewpoint. However, this would only work if the CDial object could be made to move instantaneously, as in the case of the horizon any offset from the actual desired position would be that more noticeable.

-Gecko =FC=

posted 11-30- 09:41 AM               

Aircraft with rounded canopies will create lens flare, and quite allot of it depending on the exact shape and pilot's situation.

Also your eyes have lenses, and so you can see lens flares! Just look near the sun and squint, see them?

Also since 90% of what we experience in life (outside of day to day activites) is "as seen on TV", it really does make a mental impression to have the lense flares in.

I just like it, it's purty

------------------
-Sv =FC=

WWI in SDOE!

posted 11-30- 09:59 AM               

You are completely right about the impact of TV on our perceptions. I must say it actually scares me to think people demand them to boost their immersion. Also, I don't remember which readme it was from, I think it was a racing demo of some sorts, which said 'No lens flares were used in the production of this game' .

Still, they lens flares are indeed pretty !

posted 11-30- 12:09 PM               

Yes, the effect from squinting is more like the effect of lights on a wet car windshield at night... the "record" type of grooves created by the wind shield wipers causes the lights to look like there is a star-filter on, you see streaks radiating out from the light source. This seems to happen somehow when you squint your eyes because you can see these steaks. You are right, it is not a lens flare effect.

And I suppose that the rounded canopy effect is not like the lens flare, but rather I think you would see bright spots and light-ring circles around you due to the refraction and reflections.

posted 11-30- 12:37 PM               

How does this look, Sv ? Just like squinting! Better than any lens flare...

posted 11-30- 01:10 PM               

But... could it be visible during external views using this method? Although it doesn't really matter to me that much. I really only use externals during takeoff and landing. Also, is this something that another craft could fly inside of (IOW, get between you and your sun)? Imagine the sun between you and a mountain...

Because of the close proximity of the object and the fact that no 2 people look at the sun using the same horizontal and vertical angles simultaneously, I can imagine problems with position, but you're probably better off this way than a sun positioned 80-100 miles away.

posted 11-30- 02:02 PM               

Looks good man.

keep it up.

Boy i really hope MH and crew can spend some time on SDOE soon.

Then we may not need all this crazy stuff.

posted 12-01- 01:35 AM               

Between the clouds, the Mig, the SUN! and what looks like a bird?? or other visual artifact to the right of the Mig's tail, this sim just got a whole lot more "realistic" looking...

Werner

posted 12-01- 02:09 AM               

Adding a sun to terrain:

You could add it as a ground object.. but this would be rather difficult as part of it must touch the terrain, meaning you would need a hidden object, like a line, thats around 30,000ft long.. try modeling that and getting it right.. LOL, but it could be done, it would be hidden behind clouds and terrain features so that would be cool, but the sun itself would have to be a massive object and also probably use billboard which we found out is a big FR killer, but it might be worth a try and easy to do.

The sun could be added to the terrain itself, by adding the sun to to central terrain tile you could position it as high as you like in OPS and not need it to have a part touching the terrain, problem is.. then that terrain tile isn't visible in game, the sun will vanish (meaning when the LOD switchout is reached).

I think personaly that making it a ground object in the end will be the best solution, make a small base, add a "teather" 30,000ft long, attach the sun to the end of it. Now, add a slow moving DOF to the teather and the sun can me made to move, you could even have the sun start very low, and rise above and then set on the terrain doing this. Again, this will need testing, I really don't know how an object and texture the size that you will need it to be to look realistic will affect FR, try it and see, but I think this idea with a DOF would be wicked, hidden behind clouds, partially visible through broken cloud, rising above moutains.. very cool..

Great work Gecko

~Nat~

posted 12-01- 07:07 AM               

positioning an object up high isn't even an issue, as the 3D model edges don't directly relate to the contact points.

However, one has to ask, what, apart from aesthetic aspects, does a stationary sun contribute to the sim? I am more interested in creating the sun as a tactical consideration that would boost immersion as you could loose sight of a plane and, converesely, try to shake an opponent by flying into the sun.

In order to make the sun visible in the outside views, one should then make another LOD (in fact, I just will ) with the sun positioned, say, a few miles away that switches in at a larger distance from a plane, but it should be a solid object (a circle) so that if another plane comes close enough, you just get an overlay of two solid objects or a solid object and an alpha object that is opaque where the overlay occurs, and not two alpha textures (which would make the 'rays' less transparent).

Now, for the discussion. The main problem is how to make the sun accessible from the mission editor in this approach. I can think of two ideas.

I. Making two versions of the planes, one with and another without sun, to be used in overcast conditions. Since most of the time the missions do not include overcast, the default plane could have the sun enabled and it wouldn't be that much of a hassle. Not the most elegant way to do it, but certainly the simplest.

II. Making it a part of the loadout. That would mean it should be a bomb object. However, is it possible to create pylons that wouldn't release any bombs? While the sun would make a nice H-bomb, they were nat widely available in WWII .

Oh, and the issue of a moving sun; I thought of that as well, and it would be really easy to implement through another CDial object in the cascade that would read the qryHour24 message. I just didn't take the time yet to implement it. Another issue with this is making the sun disappear at the sunrise and sunset. However, as SDOE doesn't support night and evening conditions, it's not that much of a problem.

Pete, I knew you'd like it, you DOF maniac, you!

posted 12-01- 07:10 AM               

I never knew my Mig could look this good !

posted 12-02- 11:10 AM               

I've worked in/with 3D since 92 and was around when "Lens Flare" first became a buzzword.

What lens flare is NOT.
SV, when you squint and look at the sun, that's not lens flare, the effect is actually created by your eyelashes and distortion of the eyeball.

Lens Flare requires convex glass lenses,the more lenses in line, the more flares produced. (Yes the eye is convex, but it is not glass) A rounded canopy will produce GLARE not lens flares. Glare is simply the spreading of a light pattern caused by the curvature of glass.

It is NOT something normally visible to the naked human eye. If the eyeball is distorted enough, the focal point changes allowing the light pattern to appear larger than it actually is.

What lens flare IS.
A series of spot's and a spreading of the light pattern created on film because of the bending of light created by a convex piece of glass. Remember that as light is bent, it tends to seperate into it's components. Some of these are in the visible light spectrum and will appear as additional spots.

The corona and rays you see coming off of the sun (due to lens flare) are again due to the nature of a convex piece of glass. This tends to spread the incoming light pattern as the light is transmitted through the glass of the lens. Point a magnifying glass at the ground, move it back and forth and you'll see what I mean.

It is called "Lens" flare for a reason, and until 3D came along was actually a PROBLEM in cinemetography. That's why camera's being used outdoors for filming movies have lens hoods.

The effect was originally put in so you could simulate the effect of a camera filming a scene. This would make compositing an image of someone filmed in a studio onto a 3D generated background more realistic.

I think Babylon 5 was the first culprit to overuse lens flares, and now every space scene uses them, or people think it's not realistic. Yeah right, and how many of them have been in space?

Because of having done this kind of work, I am typically more aware of the misuse of this effect and sometimes I think it's more of a curse than a benefit. (If you really want to ruin your movie viewing, work in 3D for a few years. When I saw Starship Troopers, the lighting on the bugs kept bothering me because it was too bright and the wrong color- too white. I had to make a determined effort to ignore it so I could pay attention to the movie). 3D work is now a hobby for me because the deadlines are always too short and something ALWAYS goes wrong (computers- bah humbug)

posted 12-02- 11:39 AM               

I am not going to argue with anything you said about what lens flare is. Sounds to me like you know the subject pretty well.

The only point I will make is when you say the "misuse" of it. I think it would be more accurate to say the "accurate use" of it. Lets' face it Movies, as well as games often take license all in the hopes of having a more dramatic effect, etc. So, if the effect gets the desired response, was it "misused"? Or was it used to good effect, just not very accurate?

Just my .02 worth on the subject.

posted 12-02- 12:43 PM            

Nat, if you did a vehicle version, why would you put it a 30,000 ft. This seems like the lowest practical altitude. (and indeed I've been higher than that in SDOE). What would happen if we made it "to scale". Yeah I know that seems absurd but then again why not try.

distance from earth: 150,000,000 km (93,000,000 miles) -
radius:696,000 km (432,500 miles)

Man that's a long distance LOD. It seems silly, but everything is relative. I suspect there are limitations in the code preventing this. But you could use these numbers and scale it back by a few orders of magnitude.

posted 12-02- 02:12 PM               

while Nat's idea is the most elegant one, it misses one special feature that is my primary motivation to have a sun, namely that the other planes will not be blocked out due to the brightness of the sun:

posted 12-02- 02:22 PM               

And you are right about trying to achieve an effect- that's what "artistic lisence" is all about. Sometimes it may not be right, but it may add something to the scene.

posted 12-02- 04:42 PM               

SDOE is lookin' good (running beta build 65, 1024X768 in Glide with my new Voodoo 5).
The FSAA makes a big difference, but I think it may also be negating the improvement in framerate I was looking for.

Still, it's missing one important thing...