posted 11-21- 09:56 PM               

So here's the problem, so far off the top of my head, myself, Diego and TailGunner could do this, we'd likely team up, but we could do them alone. Now if this was an aircraft contest we'd have around 30 entries I'm sure, making it a very worth while contest, so far as I said above, I know of a total of 3 people that could build a completely new terrain on thier own... not much to judge right?

So.. to this end, I want to find out what hope a contest for the Best New Terrain has, there's no talk of prizes, just feeling the water ok.

Now, I have a sticking point on this one, only a small one, thats if you can't build a terrain, nut would enter the contest, I "personaly" would be worried about Diego TG and I having to tell you how to build it, thats not really a competition, so I'm not sure how I feel on this point, cause on one hand I'd want to win, and on the other it would be damn hard not to tell other builders how to do things.. lol

Anyway!(deep breath) if you could build a terrain and would enter a contest for best new terrain, please say so below (Diego and TG, no need for you to add your names.. lol, but feel free to post comments, oh, you could tell me if you'd wanna team up Diego and TG, least we'd know where we stand, promise I'll build that fully new terrain this time )

Premil: Myself, Diego and TG as Team PTO (or something like that.. lol)

posted 11-21- 10:16 PM               

As far as nobody but a select few having the know how or skills, I would put it to you that alot of particapants in the plane contest thought they would never be able to do it (prior to the contest), then they started, often with a team of other guys, and produced some outstanding work.

This was suppose to be a fun, as well as productive contest for this sim we all spend way to much time with. If instead it's going to turn into a list of reasons why it can't be done, or result in bitterness... I withdraw the idea.

Someone wrote once that doing terrains was easy compared to making planes. I forget where I read that.

PR=FC=

posted 11-21- 11:06 PM               

If the process of creating terrain was outlined and perhaps a simple demo w/ step by step explanations included (IOW instructions), I'd be willing to try to bring some of my terrain ideas a reality.

The distance is usually not as discouraging as lack of direction.

To add: Competition does not have to shadow cooperation. Personally, I'd be doing my best regardless and would have no problem sharing new approaches or trade secrets.

My first problem is this: Are all the tools available to make new terrain from scratch?

posted 11-21- 11:35 PM               

On Gustavs point.. wll, tutorials are the one thing we're really missing, I did one on retexturing a terrain and all thats involved, but I think nows a good time to post one on the actual 3D design of the terrain, some will know how, others wont, but then we move more into the grey area of placing towns/airfields, and that really is TG's domain, but I'm sure he'll make up a tutorial when he's got it off to a fine art

But no, I certainly don't want to put anyone off building terrains at all, and I would really like to be able to have a contest or some such, I think my first post sounded bad cause I had the wieght of the whole terrain building process and problems on my mind, I'm not always articulate enough thats for sure

But my first post still stands, I'd like to here shouts from those that would be interested in this if we could get it going in the future, I'm sure we can sort out some tutorials, and for plane builders like Argon well, maye you'll like building planes alot more after working on terrains.. LOL

Names so far:

Myself and Diego
Aladar
Gustav

As for tools to do all this stuff, we'll I'm a Max user, so as such the 3D model is relatively easy, if AC3D could be used I really don't know, can AC3D use dispersion maps?

OPS is fully adequate for terrains, I say this because unlike building an aircraft, you shouldn't really be moving very much of a terrain within OPS, this only leads to problems.

Basicaly you need
OPS
3D proggie
Good paint prog (Photoshop or similar)
Hippies Tools
Parfile Tools

(did I miss anything Diego?)

Sorry PR, didn't mean to ruffle any feathers, if I wasn't for a contest like this I'd not post asking aout interest.

~Nat~

posted 11-21- 11:36 PM               

I'm not trying to tell people what to build, I know that doesn't work, I'm just trying to wave a banner that imo doesn't get much publicity when this issue comes up.

Werner

posted 11-22- 01:35 AM               

And thanks for the 'reality check' Nat - I reckon those tutorials would be essential - otherwise you, Diego & Tg would never have time to do your own entry, you'd be too busy replying to questions.

I'd be prepared to have a go - as long as AC3D can handle the terrains OK.

Can anyone clarify this for me?

Cheers,

posted 11-22- 01:37 AM               

Werner

posted 11-22- 04:38 AM               

the point I think you're missing is that the contest is not so much about its winners, as the final winners are all of us. I'm sure this was PR's original intention.

What the contest would create is a stimulation to build a new terrain and not stop midway, but push and finish it by a deadline, and build a quality one at that. Let's face it, in any project, the thing most hindering development is lack of motivation. As new terrains are being built, it's the perfect time to boost the expansion of the know-how, not only in terms of what can be achieved, but also sharing it laterally, amongst people.

That way, you and your group helping others building terrains isn't against the principles of the competition, but actually is the point of it. And, let's face it, even more than with airplanes, it's not so much the technical aspects that matter in a terrain, but aesthetic ones. The knowledge that you would share is only the basis for entering the competition. The artistic work in textures and 3D models is where the contest will really be decided.

To sum it up, this contest is not about winners (although the dollars would come in handy ), but about sharing knowledge and expanding it as fast as possible, and turning SDOE in a bigger thing.

posted 11-22- 05:00 AM               

I also have some ideas as to what we might have a try at......

we have all had a go at terrains, but as yet, no one has actually built a fully operational, scratch built terrain. YET!

What we have done is to learn all the basics techniques. Terrain building is easy....

posted 11-22- 05:40 AM               

What I do want to know though is the interest in a competition like this, we'll write up the tutorials for people to work from, but as TG has said, terrains are easy, but damn are they tedious! tedious! tedious! and then some and thats really the hard part with terrains, you spend most of the time getting seemily nowhere.

I'd ove this competition, and as I said, we'll write up what we know as best we can, but don't enter something like this if you're not a patient person.. lol

Like PR, I figure if we get 5 teams/people that would be cool, more would be better, but unrealistic I think, the problem in the past is that before Diego and I got together there were very few people (Jaguar not included) that had any enthusiasm for making terrain, and something like this could be a real boost, as I've said, I honestly believe that the future of SDOE is in new terrains, it's cool having new aircraft, but hell do I really have to fly over that terrain that I've had to look at for the last 2 years.

Anyway, yet again a very long post for me, the point really is that I just want to see who would go in for a competition of this sort if we could arrange it, if there's not enough people thenb there's no point going any further, so I'm just feeling the water, I am glad of all the comments though, good ole PR has perked up interest for alot of us again

posted 11-22- 07:25 AM               

Terrain building is surely not as glamorous as buidling a new plane, but (I think) a new terrain is recieved by the community in general with even more glee. After all we have all been flying over basically the same 3 40x40 maps for 2 years now. Good gosh, it's like making that same old boring drive to work everyday, snow or not (which is nice) we need a new area to fly over.

Why do some think that a Contest for the Best New Terrain would automatically mean that work on all planes would stop? I don't see every artist and builder entering this contest, heck, I never did. I thought (in my wild, mad scientist way) that the guys currently working on terrains would of course jump right in. I also thought that some guys who may or may not have even made a plane before would use this contest as the reason to dip their big toe in the terrain making waters and see what they could do.

I have never made a terrain, I have never made a plane, I have never flown a "real" plane, I don't like green eggs and ham! Ooops...sorry, I kinda lost my train of thought. The point is my life has been filled with the "I never have before's", until I did, or tried, often time without tutorials. Did everyone who made a plane have a tutorial? Did everyone who had it even understand thae darn thing?

I think you guys are selling short some of the hugely talented guys in this game that are doing, and have done remarkable things. Things that we have all been the beneficiaries of. Maybe someone would make an even better terrain to augment the BOB missions we would all like to see re-created. Or how about an Russian front terrain so that we can really take advantage of the Sturmovik Nat is toiling at? We can never have enough PAC terrains! And I have always wanted to see what could be done with BIG mountains in SDOE. Or...maybe some kind of fantasy Terrain with Big tunnels and large caverns one could dart into! Hey, the skies the limit!

If need be the Contest could be made to end on April 1st 2001. Ooooo April Fools day...perfect! Thats alot of time...well in dog years anyway.

I'm not going to beat my head agianst the wall on this thing. If the community says the idea is not right then so be it. But I urge the nay-sayers to ask themselves what is the motivation behind there views. Try and think of the Big SDOE Picture, I have.

Of course as always...I could be wrong.

posted 11-22- 11:03 AM               

The contest is a fantastic idea! I think we all would agree the more terrains the better.

Even if we only get one entry completed, we are still better off than we are today.

I cannot enter this contest as I am continuing my engine damage development(new post about that shortly). April 1, 2001 is a good tentative deadline, but be prepared to move it back as it approaches. Let's see what date it is when Nat and crew have a tutorial up and set a new deadline if appropriate. Nat, how long do you think it would take to create the needed tutorials?

Condor out

posted 11-22- 11:08 AM               

Thanks, but I'm not a big one for moving dealines around. To me, ya get a dealine and thats it! Now, the April 1st deadline is just an idea, and not in stone. Heck the contest is not in stone, but once a that occurs, if it does occur, and a deadline is established...to me that deadline is in stone.

As far as the tutorials being "needed", that may, or may not be the case.

All appeals would go to the Florida Supreme Court.

posted 11-22- 11:34 AM               

Tutorials are always a good thing.

I'm the kinda guy who can do alot of stuff.

IF you give me the right books.

Well In this case there isnt' any so I need tuts.

Thats why I still dont' have a plane in the air of my own making.

Cause I run into problems And can never get people to explain how do it with max and the limited tools we have.

A terrain tut would certainly make me want to make some.

I have always wanted more terrains more then planes to a certain extent.

I'm also all for a second plane contest.

Or even better something that would motivate some people to finish all the half finished planes off and get all the planes we already have to a balenced level of finish.

posted 11-22- 11:55 AM               

What if we did a "best theater" instead of a "best terrain?" Split the terrain gurus up, one on each team. That makes 3 or 4 teams. Add in an airplane building group to each team, a mission building group, and an artwork group. Now make the contest to produce one new terrain, one new airplane, one new ground object, and one mission pack. Now you get some new terrains, new planes, new campaigns, and you have more guys in the contest, and also hopefully more "help" for the terrain guys, i.e. the same guy who's doing the skin for the P-40 could be doing the "skin" for the China terrain, and you'd have some new planes appear with campaigns and new maps already done.

Just a thought. Maybe too big a project, but I kinda thought that was what the Midway guys had in mind, a new map with some new planes and a campaign to fly em in.

posted 11-22- 01:03 PM               

I'd say the terrain contest is much more feasible at this point, and this idea of yours certainly needs consideration after it.

posted 11-22- 01:09 PM               

I agree with Geck, it's a great idea, but I think a little to ambitious for any reasonible time frame that would hold everyones interest.

It would be great to segue into the plane/mission/ground objects contest for each terrain once the terrains (with airfields) were complete and that contest was over.

posted 11-22- 04:01 PM               

Now thats a good name for it Pachy.

Maybe we could get some contests running concurrently.

Best saved plane starts a month after the terrain one.

And a little after that a best mission pack.

and so on and so on.

posted 11-22- 04:22 PM               

Jedi, I agree that sound neat! BUT like everyone else says... its WAY to big of a project at this point in time. Now later on, hell it would be great! There are some Alphas that would go good with "Project Pacific" if they were finished up.

posted 11-22- 05:03 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by ArgonV:
I vote we have a "Finishing Plane Contest" as Spanky has suggested. There are TONS of planes still in Beta or early. THESE NEED TO BE FINISHED!!!!!!

---

posted 11-22- 09:43 PM               

OK, A Tutorial for building a terrain, thats an easy one actualy, as long as you have Max, as time goes this one will hopefully be updated with less tedious way of doing it, but even so, it's a start.

A Tutorial regarding how to place towns/airfields and rename them correctly, well, thats TailGunners domain, I know how to rename towns etc (or I did ) but have no idea on placement, thats why Diego and I didn't get Midway finished with airfields etc (TG has done more work as you know).

OK, lats thing... Time Frame to builod a new terrain from scratch, depending on your commitment to the task, and how long your sanity lasts, I think 6 months should be a good estimate, if you work hard and long and often on it, probably alot sooner, but 6 months is a good guesstimate.

posted 11-23- 12:03 AM               

Well... I dunno ....

My question still remains...
is their a prob with doing terrains and AC3D

I'm still very interested in getting into terrains though - have been for some time.

In particular, I intend to do (with some creative license in regards to scale) the following maps :

1) Darwin & top end to S/E, West Iryan Jaya to N, EAST TIMOR to N/W and Arafuru Sea in between.

2) Cape york to S/W, Port Moresby to N/Center, Lae to far N, Milne bay to N/E & maybe Coral Sea to E.

3) Coral Sea to S, Solomon Is to E, Bougainville & New England to N.

Yes... a big ask... but WTF...if I can't build planes, then I have to have a go at something....

Watch for a progress in the weeks to come at the link below.

Cheers,

------------------
AGAS 5
CAC Skins

posted 11-23- 04:48 AM               

Good Luck!

p.s.

One thought for all these Pacific Island type terrains. If we had a basic 'all sea' terrain, the islands can be added as a referenced SM. This worked fine on the PArsoft Island terrain. I don't know how it would work with a large land-mass, but with islands, it's o.k.