posted 11-18- 08:20 AM               

Ok, what's the deal with these PP5.3/PP6 flight models?

Firstly, both my sticks work fine with all other sims. USB Saitek 3D Cyborg, and a Logitech Wingman Extreme that I've tried with both it's USB and GamePort connectors.

Any plane, above a certain airspeed, goes into spaz-mode when using the stick. It varies from plane to plane and is worse when using the GamePort on the sound card. All stick sliders are set far left (other settings make things worse). Stick is calibrated ok. FFB is off.

With the Fw190A3 (for example) things are fine (USB) until about 500IAS. At that point all stick input has about half-second delay and the plane reacts violently and like it's on a rubber band. With the stick connected to the GamePort on the soundcard this takes place almost as soon as I'm off the runway.

With the Zero it happens at ANY speed.

This has rendered the game unplayable (again) for me. Private Roger says he experiences the same thing with his MS stick.

posted 11-18- 08:36 AM               

I have yet to try PP6 though.

I know people with MS sticks always complain but Thats all i usually hear.

posted 11-18- 08:45 AM               

I remember a year and a half ago complaining that every other flight sim I have the stick worked perfectly in, only in SDOE was a 3rd party fix required. That bugged me then, it bugs me now, but not enough to stop playing this sim. I did give up along time ago on a real fix for the problem though. Just as I did the "patch". I'm normally much happier for doing so.

posted 11-18- 09:33 AM               

I uninstalled SDoE and did a fresh install.

All tests carried out with the stock Fw190, training, take-off.

SDoE plus patch 1.5 the plane handles perfectly at all speeds, up to 700+ in a dive. Didn't get faster than that, plane is responsive and stable, no probs at all.

SDoE plus patch 1.5, NationsV2, ditto above.

SDoE plus patch 1.5, NationsV2 and PP6, plane is screwed straight off the runway, half-second delay to all stick inputs, behaves like it's attatched to a rubber band, uncontrollable.

This is not an SDoE code bug, it's been caused by the FM modifications in the plane packs. The same problem existed with PP5.3.

posted 11-18- 10:02 AM               

Ahh..well that certainly explains it. I don't fly the german planes as much as I'm sure you do, so hence I would not have noticed the problems you have encounterd. Sorry if I steered you wrong along the way.

I do know that the P51 FM in PP6.0 is a vast improvement from PP5.3 Thats why I cringe when I hear they are going to continue to work on it. Yikes....I can finally fly it again, please don't change it much.

Wish I could help.

posted 11-18- 10:14 AM            

I want to confirm which 190 you are flying. If you are flying the 190a3, this plane has not changed since 5.3b. There are problems with the flight model of this variant.

In PP6 Tailslide vastly improved the flight model of the 190a4. This version has been available for several months and few have made significant negative comments on its handling. Please test this version thoroughly. If you experience the same problems, Tailslide will want to know more details. I believe Tailslide would be willing to upgrade the other 190s to the 190a4 model if people want it done.

The whole reason we moved to modified flight models in SDOE was the failure to be able to produce stalls or spins of any kind. If you experiment with the original 190 models I think you will find they are virtually impossible to achieve spins/stalls with.

posted 11-18- 10:30 AM               

This is not a problem only with the Fw190. ALL of the planes are exhibiting this prob to some greater or lesser degree.

I did a fresh install to comprehensively isolate the problem.

With the basic install of SDoE plus it's official patch the Fw190 handles perfectly at all speeds. It doesn't stall properly, I know, but it flys well.

The NationV2 add-on creates no problem.

With the PP5.3 and PP6 the planes go to hell once they reach a certain airspeed, different for each plane.

To get past the problem of user insensitivity to this problem I suggest those of you who can bear the inconvenience to uninstall SDoE and reinstall it progressively with the relevant components, testing one plane on a default level at each stage. You will then see what I am talking about.

I chose the Fw190. After PP6 this became the Fw190A3.

In my ignorance of what is changed to create these modified FM's, I'm wondering if it's possible that one bad mod somewhere is corrupting all the other planes?

The Zero (A6M2) is the worst; it is totally unflyable in combat.

Take the challenge...uninstall SDoE and progressively test the a/c at each stage of patch/Nations/PP6 installation. You will find the stock FM to be an absolute elight compared to the modified FM's that have destroyed any sense of controlled flight. I, for one, do not enjoy having to wrestle a high-performance warbird around the sky like it's a 747.

And if it was my stick or system that was at fault I would have the same problem with the stock FM's as I do with the modified ones. This is 100% down to the mods.

posted 11-18- 11:07 AM            

I fly Radio Control planes and on the better radios there is a way to compensate for a very sensitive airplane. This is called "expoential control" and it softens up the center stick area. You can adjust it for more or less softness. Not at all like the "deadzone" adjustment for our joysticks that only extends the area of contact. The "expo" adjustment still gives movement at center just not as much and is fully adjustable for how far it extends in stick travel and how sensitive it is.

Would there be any way we could make a program that would do this "expo" thing for our joysticks.

posted 11-18- 11:33 AM               

Pay attention!

Without the plane pack my joystick works PERFECTLY. The a/c are a joy to fly.

WITH the plane pack my joystick STILL works perfectly but the planes' flight models are screwed.

posted 11-18- 12:36 PM               

Hawk,
There is a program available at stickworks.com called CTFJ that has this feature. It works very well.

I haven't noticed the problems that Siggi is referring to, but my saitek x36 is extremely sensitive in SDOE without CTFJ. Couldn't fly without it.

E

posted 11-18- 01:17 PM               

I wish I knew where to even tell you to look for a way to fix this. I'd be interested to know if others are seeing this same thing and if so, what are the common factors. Many of us have had joystick problems, but it's always centered (no pun int.) around too much sensitivity.

posted 11-18- 01:23 PM               

Well, what can we say, from the tests it's obviously FM related and not code based, the other obvious thing is that it only affects certain joysticks, and even then with different levels of "crappiness", thing is, I don't see an answer, the FMs now are much better than they are with the stock version, and also given the amount of work involved I don't see that there's a way to "fix" the FMs for specific joysticks, especialy since we'd have to have those joysticks before any work could be done, how would we know what we'd done worked?

I know that when I switched from my cheapo Joystick to this Wingman Interceptor (not expensive but supposedly better) It took me 3 months to learn to fly SDOE again, and I still say my cheapo stick was far better, and to be honest, that is the only answer I have Siggi, buy a £10/15 joystick, SDOE is best on these.. sad, but from my experience true.

posted 11-18- 01:29 PM               

With PP 6, I do not experience exactly the same problems, but this I have noticed ( testing all offline so far ); all the planes I fly regularly, and a few I don't, begin at certain attitudes and speeds to exhibit severe control problems. I have been fighting it with trim, but it is a fight, and I spend more time trimming than flying. And just when it 'feels' right straight and level, it goes again....this is with the 51, SpitV and IXe, and Beaufighter variants, Pe2, and Corsair. ( The last 3 I seldom fly, on or off line ).

I got CTFJ again, and with Esox' help, managed to get it to work. It did improve some of my handling problems, but not the ones I am referring to. It sounds like Siggi's is more severe than mine, but I can expect that online, I am going to lose a lot of battles when this does happen.

Thanks to a reminder by Mirthain, I may know part of my problem - I use a CH HOTAS setup, but run it through my SB Live gameport. This may be causing occasional problems, especially at different angles/speeds/attitudes. But if it were any worse, as it seems with Siggi, I wouldn't be able to fly these at all. I had some of the same problems during 5.3, though not as pronounced with the 51, SpitV and IX as with PP 6. I haven't tried any of the German or Japanese planes, but I believe him. If it is strictly a joystick problem, then it would have to be a problem with more than one brand, and type ( mine is analog ).

Might be something needs checking, particularly if there is a large variation of performance between systems? And that might involve a lot of folk testing...

------------------
nealg=FC=

posted 11-18- 01:42 PM               

PR=FC=

posted 11-18- 01:54 PM               

I have always preferred CH products, though I have tried MS and Thrustmaster ( a Thrustmaster stick I bought several years back broke completely in the first 2 days of use...I threw it, somewhere. If any one wants it, it is somewhere between Palo Alto and San Jose...).

------------------
nealg=FC=

posted 11-18- 02:50 PM               

Might it be that the problem sticks are digital? I see that the keyboard.inp generates analog signals for joystick inputs, giving digital ones for keyboard control inputs.
I did try making the analog inputs into digital ones by renaming the lines but that simply disabled my stick.

Maybe it is also mobo-specific, considering that different people experience slighty different levels of problem.

I do have an crappy old analog stick, but I'll have to reinstall SDoE again before I can test it (I uninstalled it...again...sniff..).

It doesn't get away from the fact that the stock a/c fly absolutely perfectly for me. The problem only occurs with the plane-pack. If the input code is the same I fail to see how modified FM's can cause this problem. Another black mystery. The last one was having my network screwed up by (I think) the Corsair pack.

posted 11-18- 02:58 PM               

Umm.. NO. If I were to spend times on FMs i would look at the 262.. its whacky.

Probably better to just not use the A3 for now as its was exactly the same plane as the a4 in real life but its got some screwey 5.2 FM's on it in SDOE.

What happened to the p51 by the way? It can turn twice as good now and doesn't lose speed in a turn. When i put full flaps down i can't hold the nose above the horizon even with full backstick.

TS

------------------

www.airsims.com

posted 11-18- 03:35 PM               

BTW - is 700 mph a realistic speed to test at????

posted 11-18- 05:24 PM               

Also the stick is USB but I run it through the little converter cause I unplug it sometimes, and when it was in the USB port and I unplugged it once, i had to uninstall the software and reinstall it for the computer to see it again.

So much for plug and play. AND i don't have to run that extra bit of software i did when i ran it in the USB port.

USB is cool and all But I have 2 ports and 2 devices and the ports sit unused.

I have a USB mouse but it doesn't work in safe mode so i just slapped on the converter and put in back in the PS/2 port.

Still glad it's USB though cause we use it in the Playstation 2.

posted 11-18- 06:15 PM            

I am wrong, I just tried the SE5 and found it almost unflyable with my MS FF stick with the new plane pak. It was much smoother in earlier release.
------------------
Hawk
Forum manager and bar keep
http://rcwarbirds.com/

posted 11-18- 11:49 PM            

The only problem is the "Range" setting reduces total throw so it takes more stick to move less surface, thus you my not have enough elevator. Just keep trying different settings for the elevator axis.

My plane was the standard FW 190. It was hairy but now it is a baby!

To those that have tried this and found it not helpful try again. It has been updated with more control now.

posted 11-20- 08:31 PM               

I was unable to fly FSSDOE in ANY form until I installed CTFJ2 and now 3.2 (I think)

My settings are:

For X and Y axis: 95% range and TWO clicks on the exponential setting so that the sensitivity is less near the neutral point of the axis. (In the top right hand quadrant of the sensitivity graph, the graph now looks like y=e^x - i.e. a simple tear-away exponential function.)

Yes, this does decrease the range of movement of the elevators and ailerons, but I can now fly all the planes!! I could never fly the German planes in 5.3, esp the Fw something or other, without these settings.

Certainly 50% range seems a lot excessive to me.

Regards,
MW

posted 11-20- 08:35 PM               

I noticed that Siggi was complaining about a "rubber band" type of feeling about the controls. I get that with the RUDDER only, when then yaw BOINGS back to the centre-line and right PAST the centre-line, backwards and forwards damping only VERY slowly.

I have written about this in the past on this board, but always at the END of a long thread, much like this one , and no-one ever responds . Thought I would take my opportunity and write to you about this!

Any thoughts on the BOING in the Rudder?

posted 11-20- 10:11 PM               

1. When you deflect full rudder it throws the plane skid where the fuselage is at an angle to the airflow

2. With the fuselage sticking out into the wind after the momentum from the swing wears off the air hitting the tail pushes it back the opposite direction until the air on the rudder pushes it back again and so on.

Just a guess but since the surfaces are modelled as 2d airfoils it doesnt account for air following around the backside of the stab/fuselage and around the rudder, it just goes right to zero yaw when it's edge on to the airflow so this effect may be magnified.

TS

posted 11-21- 02:18 AM               

**WARNING LONG POST** This is how I see it.

1. We have way better physics then other games, so our planes are going to
naturally fly better. I believe we have the best flying planes in any sim so
far.

2. I think the German planes are great if you fly them the way they was intended.
I think Tail and the others did an outstanding job on the FMs.

3. The zero doesn't have most of the FM work that the others have. At the time
Mposis made them not much was done in the way of FM breakthroughs. Now we have
real fuel tanks that will effect the way the plane fly's. I've been updating
the Zeros with some help from Condor and Argon. Our Zeros fly way better then
the current planes the community fly's (Will release them when the Ki-61 is
ready for download). Last but not least, From the joysticks you listed, it only
takes me a second to figure out your problem.

4. Your suffering from "SSS" What's "SSS" you ask? "SSS" is "Shitty Stick Syndrome"
I have used almost every kind of joystick ever made, I mean all the way back to
C64 days! One thing I've learned over the many, many years of flying sims is
that all sticks are way to loose. (Stop laughing) All but Thrustmaster. They
have some nice heavy duty springs and rubber bushings to keep the stick from
flooping around. If you hit a joystick near the top and it doesn't go back to
upright, your never going to be able to shoot anything down. You hit a Thrustmaster
stick and it wont even move. I've heard from friends that the F-22 will even
make your arm sore if in a long and hard dogfight. I've used TM TOP GUN joysticks
ever since they came out 2 years ago. Most was weak do to crappy parts, but
the new USB TM TOP GUN sticks have fixed this and for only 19 bucks US you can't
go wrong. I'd buy a TM stick and you'll not have the problem anymore.

On a side note, March 2001 Thrustmaster is coming back out with the TQS (Discontinued,
but you can still find some for sale) and F-16( Formally the F-22) HOTAS setup
and they will be ALL METAL! yes I said all metal. Till then you can get the
TOP GUN, but I'm going to spend the big bucks on those babies!

Siggi, I really think it's a joystick problem and not the FMS I've owned a
Wingman, was crap, broke it in two pieces playing Madden 95 (don't ask )
I've never owned the other stick cause I found TM long ago..

I have right now an old X-Wing TM stick so I can use my Throttle (now broken,
damn CH crap) and TM Elite Rudder pedals.

For me, personly the TM TOP GUN USB is the best joystick on the market and
can be found at any Babbages or CompUSA. PS: there's a new TOP GUN out with
a throttle on it, never used it so I don't know how it is. On joystick throttles
aren't realistic so I don't touch'em

And, the reason you don't remember this in the orignal install of SDOE is that the FM's then was crap.

------------------
Tony "Razer" Martin

"Making SDOE a dangerous Place, One plane at a time!"
FS Hangar

[This message has been edited by Razer (edited 11-21-2000).]

posted 11-21- 03:04 AM               

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^FANBOY ALERT FANBOY ALERT.^^^^^^^^^^

My logitech wingman works great man, plenty stiff.

There is a problem with TOO stiff spings.

You have to fight them so much that you loose fine control.

What the flight sim world REALLY needs though is a flight stick that is mounted to the floor.

Imagine the control you would have then, move and inch at the stick and it would barly move the controls.

It would add to the immersion factor too.

I keep wanting to make one but never get around to it.

Really a well designed chair, stick, throttle, small fold away panel and rudder pedals would rock.

All in one package or avalible seperatly maybe in a couple different grades and upgradable and modular.

Sounds like a viable small business, albeit for a niche market.

With moduals for beginners and prop fans and jet fans, and then some helo stuff too.

I can dream right?

[This message has been edited by Spanky the Mad Dog (edited 11-21-2000).]

posted 11-21- 03:37 AM               

Hmm you could have change able stick handles for most german, american and british planes.

Make it so if you want to go whole hog and put together a scale cockpit and stuff like some people do, that you can use these parts you bought as part of it, permanently or for a while.

Include pin out and driver details for homebrew tweaking.

Oh yeah and you HAVE to have adjustable spring tensions on all the parts.

Then you go really crazy and start selling an audio package or 2 with powered speakers and a sub. That all snap onto the system.

posted 11-21- 04:26 AM               

They are devoted to flight simulation and have tons of yokes and accessories (even cockpits) But you have to align some big bucks to get it...

Vincent

posted 11-21- 08:15 AM               

I had similar problems tonight playing with the Beaufort 21: sure I had an enormous fuel load on and I presumed it was just heavy.

However, after flying the mission (crashed - I replaced the Typhoons in the Typhoon Abbeville Airfield Raid with Beauforts) I flicked across to the sole remaining P38 and IT porpoised around the place too.

I noticed with the Beauforts a low frame rate (<8-9 fps) and I thought:
1. My computer is TOO slow for this (200MMX, 64 MB Ram, and VooDoo2 * 2 SLI but smallish video ram)
2. Of you.

But when I reloaded the game, all seemed OK. I will get back to you when I have fiddled a bit more. Spitfires seem fine! Typhoons seem fine - all with CTFJ3.2 running as described elsewhere.

posted 11-21- 08:17 AM               

I had similar problems tonight playing with the Beaufort 21: sure I had an enormous fuel load on and I presumed it was just heavy.

However, after flying the mission (crashed - I replaced the Typhoons in the Typhoon Abbeville Airfield Raid with Beauforts) I flicked across to the sole remaining P38 and IT porpoised around the place too.

I noticed with the Beauforts a low frame rate (<8-9 fps) and I thought:
1. My computer is TOO slow for this (200MMX, 64 MB Ram, and VooDoo2 * 2 SLI but smallish video ram)
2. Of you.

But when I reloaded the game, all seemed OK. I will get back to you when I have fiddled a bit more. Spitfires seem fine! Typhoons seem fine - all with CTFJ3.2 running as described elsewhere.

Good luck.
MW

posted 11-21- 08:54 AM               

I have an idea that as soon as the rudder is used it somehow 'corrupts' the FM.

I've been logical about this in order to eliminate stuff.

Firstly,
a) my stick is fine in all other sims. I have no probs with the stock SDoE install.

b) Also, on my friend's PC, using the same stick (he has the Logitech Wingman Extreme too) there are zero probs with PP6. He has a T-Bird system.

c) It's not a USB power prob, I've tried with my USB modem dis-connected from the PC.

d) DX8 didn't fix it.

e) The prob is not consistent; 10% of the time the stick is ok, until (it seems) I use the rudder.

Bear in mind I get the same prob with my Saitek (Thrustmaster, same company remember) Cyborg 3D which has no 'stick-slop'.

At this point I'm thinking it's mobo related, something to do with the USB. But why the stock SDoE install works ok and not the PP6 is a mystery. And why are my other sims ok? Surely a mobo prob would manifest itself across the whole range of sims, not just one particular mod? But the mod (PP6) works fine on my friend's PC with the same stick.

posted 11-21- 10:37 AM               

**********************************************************************

Logitech LWS_CLRC.EXE READ_1ST.TXT File
(c) Copyright 1999 Logitech, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

**********************************************************************

Logitech Customer Support - LWS_CLRC.EXE 1-01-99

**********************************************************************

READ_1ST.TXT TABLE OF CONTENTS

1. DESCRIPTION
2. INSTALLATION
2.1 Decompressing the file from LWS_CLRC.EXE
2.2 Installation under Windows 95/98
3. USAGE
3.1 When to run the Logitech Clear Calibration Utility
3.2 Running the Logitech Clear Calibration Utility
4. CLEAN-UP
5. FILE CONTENTS

**********************************************************************

1. DESCRIPTION

The WingMan Clear Calibration Utility was developed by Logitech to
resolve calibration problems with Logitech digital gaming devices.

NOTE: THIS UTILITY STRIPS ALL CALIBRATION INFORMATION IN THE WINDOWS
REGISTRY FOR ALL GAMING DEVICES. THIS INCLUDES ANY
NON-LOGITECH GAMING DEVICES, THAT HAVE BEEN INSTALLED.

This utility is for Windows 95/98 only. Please see the "USAGE"
section for more information.

**********************************************************************

**********************************************************************

3. USAGE

When a gaming device is calibrated, the calibration information is
written to various locations within the Windows registry.
Occasionally, the calibration information can become corrupted.
Normally, going through the recalibration routine for the gaming
device corrects and overwrites the corrupted calibration
information.

However, in rare cases, the corrupted calibration information cannot
be overwritten. The Logitech Clear Calibration Utility should be
used in these situations.

This utility strips away all calibration information, including
corrupted calibration information, from the Windows Registry. This
will allow you to calibrate the gaming device on a "clean slate".

NOTE: THIS UTILITY STRIPS ALL CALIBRATION INFORMATION IN THE WINDOWS
REGISTRY FOR ALL GAMING DEVICES. THIS INCLUDES ANY
NON-LOGITECH GAMING DEVICES, THAT HAVE BEEN INSTALLED. RUNNING
THIS UTILITY WILL REQUIRE YOU TO RECALIBRATE ALL OF YOUR GAMING
DEVICES.

3.1 When to run the Logitech Clear Calibration Utility ***************

The Logitech Clear Calibration utility should be used when you have
recalibrated your gaming device several times, yet it still appears
to be calibrated incorrectly. For example, the crosshairs do not
center in the Game Controllers test screen, even though the gaming
device hardware is physically centered.

3.2 Running the Logitech Clear Calibration Utility *******************

To launch the Logitech Clear Calibration Utility (CLRCALIB.EXE),
please follow the instructions below:

- Click on "Start", then "Run...".
- The Run window will appear.
- On the Open line, type the following:

C:\LOGITEMP\CLRCALIB.EXE

and press [ENTER].

The Logitech Clear Calibration Utility will then appear on the
screen. From this point follow the on screen instructions.

After the Logitech Clear Calibration Utility has finished running,
shut down the system. Restart the system and recalibrate the
gaming device(s).

If the device continues to calibrate incorrectly, please try the
gaming device on another system to determine if it is defective.

**********************************************************************

4. CLEAN-UP

The files placed in the C:\LOGITEMP directory from this patch are no
longer needed after the installation has been completed as described
above. These files may be deleted or copied to a floppy diskette in
the event the files need to be reinstalled at a later date.

**********************************************************************

5. FILE CONTENTS

This file (READ_1ST.TXT) is a part of a self-extracting archive
called LWS_CLRC.EXE. In addition to the READ_1ST.TXT, LWS_CLRC.EXE
includes the following file:

CLRCALIB.EXE 32,768 09-17-99 12:28p

**********************************************************************

© 1999 Logitech Inc. All rights reserved. Logitech, the Logitech
logo, and product names referred to herein are the registered
trademarks of Logitech. All other trademarks are the property of
their respective owners.

**********************************************************************
END OF FILE
**********************************************************************

AQ

posted 11-21- 11:04 AM               

Yeah But I'm only seeing a floor mounted flight yoke, wheres the floor mounted stick?

And $300 US is a little too much money, In fact thats called stealing. No reason I can see for it to cost that much for a good stick and throttle.

Specialy since my $70 Canadian sitck works great.

posted 11-21- 11:09 AM               

OK now I'm seeing a floor mounted stick. looks nice too.