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Author	Topic: The patch
kopper JAG	posted 07-26- 10:40 AM What is the latest progress report on the patch? ------------------ Kopper Fortunae Nihil (Nothing to Chance) OPPs Making SDOE a Dangerous place. One plane at a time. IP: Logged
Falck Pilot	posted 07-26- 11:01 AM Some folks have the source and are tinkering with it. But they arent allowed to build executables for release. Inertia cant put any time into patches until after the release of rcsim. IP: Logged
nealg Pilot	posted 07-26- 11:57 AM Encouraging news, though...it's just so hard to be optimistic when I'm a born pessimist!! Patch. ------------------ nealg=FC= IP: Logged
kopper JAG	posted 07-26- 01:00 PM As far as I know no one has signed the NDA. If anyone did they can only look at the source for evaluation purposes only and can't make changes to it. So the patch will never show is this what is happening? ------------------ Kopper Fortunae Nihil (Nothing to Chance) OPPs Making SDOE a Dangerous place. One plane at a time. IP: Logged
Falck Pilot	posted 07-26- 01:32 PM Kopper, fyi a few people already have the source. They can build executables (otherwise how would they be sure if their code worked) but they cant release builds to the public. What they are doing is giving their code changes to inertia, who will look into rolling the changes into the next patch. The new patch will be worked on after rcsim ships. quote: So the patch will never show is this what is happening? No. Dont be so pessimisitc. IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 07-26- 01:45 PM ------------------ Patch It! TS Aircombat IP: Logged
Jerry Pilot	posted 07-26- 02:29 PM kopper, if you really believe that no one has signed the NDA then explain why MH opened a new room on the board called "The Source - For those people with access to the Open Plane source"? It is access controlled and there has been activity lately. Strangely enough it is located in the Open Plane section of the home page if you care to look. IP: Logged
Laika 801 Pilot	posted 07-26- 02:37 PM Could someone PLEASE Anyone HEY there ?!!! CHANGE THOSE DAMN RESTRICTED HARDCODED DAMAGE MODEL PLEASE ? BEFORE 2015 PLEASE ? PLEASE ! LK IP: Logged
kopper JAG	posted 07-26- 02:41 PM Good to here you guys are working for free and providing code to their next sim. That still doesn't answer the question of when the patch, which I believe is on build 73 will be available for SDOE. Don't any of you who don't work for Ineritia give me an answer unless you know the date. I don't want to here after the RCsim is released. When will the RCsim be released? And how far behind schedule is it now? ------------------ Kopper Fortunae Nihil (Nothing to Chance) OPPs Making SDOE a Dangerous place. One plane at a time. IP: Logged
Falck Pilot	posted 07-26- 02:43 PM Read the .plan files and lynx.inertiagames.com for some insight on the progress of rcsim. IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 07-26- 02:49 PM Mighty's .plan is pretty good too: http://www.mightydrake.com/plan.htm IP: Logged
Zurawski Pilot	posted 07-26- 02:51 PM Ya know Kopper ... I've grown to respect you and do indeed believe in some of your crusades ... But sometimes you can be a real ass. IP: Logged
bomber Pilot	posted 07-26- 05:35 PM Zurawski what makes you think you need to defend inertia. I'm sure they can take care of themselves. Actually I think there are lot of guys that feel the same way Kopper does but are afraid to say anything because of the responce they get form guys like you. I think that it takes a lot of guts to come out and say your unhappy about the way things are going. WTG Kopper. That said the issue is how much time do people want to invest in this sim if the patch is never coming. That is an important and legitimate reason to hound MH for more specific commitments. There is nothing personal about. It is no different than asking when the new roof that the contractor said would be done will actual be done. If it will a be while you may decide not to go ahead and lay the carpet. Now the contractor can say that he finished the roof but if its leaking that is not a very good answer. I,m busy on the next house I will get to you when I can because my family needs a pay check right now is just as bad. There is no reason why you should be concerned about the next guys house or the contractors pay check. Do you think you can follow this line of reasoning from now on. Its about an unwriten contract that says my product is complete to the best of my ability or I will fix it as soon as I can. This is the only way a lot of small business men can survive and its not fair but hey what is. Thanks [This message has been edited by bomber (edited 07-26-2000).] IP: Logged
Falck Pilot	posted 07-26- 05:49 PM Before this moves into the flame war section, allow me to say this: Inertia is making no money from SDOE anymore. They need a paying gig so that they can later come back to patch this. In your little analogy bomber, its like the roofer not doing the next house, going bankrupt, and having to sell off his equipment. When that happens your roof wont be fixed ever. Why do I defend Inertia? Because theyre the only game publishers Ive known to stick by a product for so long, even if other things do take precedence. To be unhappy with the current situation is understandable, but to say 'tell me exactly when the project youre spending all your free time on will be completed' is another story. Kopper came off with a bad attitude in his posts, which is why me and zur responded as we did. IP: Logged
Lothar Pilot	posted 07-26- 10:34 PM Skilled members of the community can work on the source code for free (and thier own enjoyment), and we will all get a better sim. Or, everyone can expect MH and Co. to spend more time on SDOE without pay instead of working on thier new, paying projects. I'm sure some code from the RC sim would benefit SDOE, but do you think the ground unit bug is on the RC Sim todo list? Is ANY of the network code (and its bugs) in the RC sim? I think we can either consider SDOE done, or support amatuers (in the best sense of the word) who want to work on the code kindly provided by Inertia. If someday Inertia releases an SDOE2 that incorporates some of these community fixes, then I guess we will be 'screwed' :P IP: Logged
bomber Pilot	posted 07-26- 11:06 PM Falck I think you are missing the point. It is to late now to worry about but the future success of a small business is based largely on customer service. The customer is always right is a good concept to follow. Your a customer of inertia I'm a customer so is Kopper, there for Kopper is right, I think its that simple. I'm happy, your happy maybe Kopper isn't, if he isn't and he has no good reason to be unhappy so what, he's still the customer and so he's right. Any future product that inertia releases is going to be colored in peoples eyes by what they have produced in the past. It is simply in their own best interest to placate the existing customer base. SDOE got a bad rap in a lot of the flight sim community. Now that may be unfair but I think that it was a mistake to say we will fix it, if the time frame for that fix is not relatively short. And as for my analogy I'm just saying that telling your customers that your on the verge of bankruptcy is probably not a good idea. For me it's not a question of not getting the patch because I have been happy with SDOE. What troubles me is the way people have been lead along waiting for a patch that never materializes. I'm not a part of the plane building community so I don't have a real keen understanding of what opps is about. I do have an interest in how others feel about the game. The community has lost several good people because of the long wait for the patch and that is my only interest in it at this point. I think you and Zur should consider what the effect of losing additional people will have on this community. I think the patch should never have been mentioned until it was available. That is just (IMOA) a better way to have handled a difficult problem. Since it was mentioned, a time frame should have been established so people in the community could make up there own minds about investing their time in working on the development. That is all that Kopper is asking is for someone to spell out the time frame. He may have gone about it wrong but he has a legitimate reason for asking. Driving people like Kopper away by calling them asses is not a good way to keep the community together or good for inertia's future success. And if it was coming from inertia themselves it would be a very bad business practice. I feel kinda bad about this post because I have no reason to take a position on the issues involved. I only wish to clarify what is and isn't a reasonable position. These issues are sure to be raised with the release of the next sim and the way they are dealt with is important. [This message has been edited by bomber (edited 07-26-2000).] IP: Logged
kopper JAG	posted 07-27- 12:08 AM It's funny I ask a question and people start calling me names?? Go figure. First off, I remember once before MH said he will have spare time and work on it over Christmas, then nothing. I posted my flame about the patch and a week later suddenly there is a beta to test. Flurry of activity for a few weeks then nothing. Now the RCsim is what is taking priority and after it is released then maybe the patch. Come on and grow up. I have seen nothing but stall after stall about this patch. I say release the source outright and let the community fix it. None of this NDA bullshit where everyone provides code fixes for free, which Inertia is free to use in their software. Anyone who has their knives out for me give your head a shake and think about it for a minute before you reply with some half baked emotional response. I want a firm commitment as to when the patch is coming out. Either own up or fess up and quit jerking our chains. ------------------ Kopper Fortunae Nihil (Nothing to Chance) OPPs Making SDOE a Dangerous place. One plane at a time. IP: Logged
Zurawski Pilot	posted 07-27- 12:30 AM ... Bomber, Do I need to defend MH or Inertia? ... No. And I assure you I wish for the patch as much as anyone! I however have no delusions of MH sitting around thumbing his ass wondering what he should be doing next! He and Inertia have a paying gig. Sorry to say FS is "done" and is making him no further money. Why can't some understand "THAT" has to be his priority at this moment? ... Kopper, Sorry ... just my temper getting the best of me. No hard feelings (besides, I've called you worse) IP: Logged
wakeup tailgunner Pilot	posted 07-27- 03:17 AM If Inertia stand to make no further money from this sim, why not take a leaf out of SSI's book. I loved playing Steel Panthers, but it was limited and getting very dated. It too had a strong community of talented programmers and add-on makers, so, what did they do? released the source code to a group of the best add-on builders and allowed them to develop a completely new game. Steel Panthers World at War. Available as a non-profit free download online. You don't need the original game to play it either! SDOE could be made so much better if the community were allowed to do it's thing on it. MH already has a degree of control over who gets access anyway, and by putting his stamp of approval on things, the sim can get what it needs. If the makers don't stand to make money, why not let those who want a better sim do it for free? IP: Logged
VDU Cadet	posted 07-27- 05:58 AM FYI Yep, some of us got the sources, and are already working on it. Personnaly I'm working on the OpenGL renderer, basically because I did not like the graphic glitches that exist on the TNT boards in DirectX, and because OpenGL is an interesting matter for me. So, be sure that the NDA is not a myth, but it's up to Inertia to decide when the next patch will come out. IP: Logged
Spyder Pilot	posted 07-27- 06:12 AM Now tell us something we don't know. ------------------ IP: Logged
Michael Harrison General	posted 07-27- 07:15 AM "As far as I know no one has signed the NDA." Right. That's why it's called an NDA. They aren't supposed to talk publicly about it. "If anyone did they can only look at the source for evaluation purposes only and can't make changes to it." We can't stop them from making changes on their own machines (I would expect it, in order for a full evaluation to occur). Nothing stops them from sending the changes to us for inclusion in the next beta. Since VDU has already mentioned that he's working on the Opengl renderer, I will go on to say that he's sent his changes on to me and it's waiting in our codebase until I have the time to build another beta. As to when the next patch will be out? I don't know (as I've said before). We're currently working 7 day weeks to get RCSim code complete by the end of Aug and that project has top priority right now. The Mac port of FS (see current Macworld news for more info) should positively affect the PC version, but until Mac FS goes into testing and the ideas we've got become firm plans, it wouldn't serve any purpose other than to "jerk your chains" for me to say what those ideas are. Laika: What hard coded DM are you talking about? IP: Logged
Falck Pilot	posted 07-27- 07:24 AM Michael, He's talking about the way the game engine handles aircraft engine damage. SDOE decides when fires start and when the engine 'sputters' rather than allowing this to be specified via openplane. IP: Logged
Michael Harrison General	posted 07-27- 08:44 AM Yes, I've seen the thread now... That's true. That behavior fell under the category of "this should be a property, but we need to get FS out NOW!" It would be technically simple to change. IP: Logged
kopper JAG	posted 07-27- 09:40 AM Funny Zur, I don't recall ever calling you any 4 letter words. I recall at least 4+ occassions where you have done the same to me. As for the source code I say release it and let the community take care of it. If we wait for MH, Inertia or anyone else it will be a long time. Let the user community do it. ------------------ Kopper Fortunae Nihil (Nothing to Chance) OPPs Making SDOE a Dangerous place. One plane at a time. IP: Logged
Zurawski Pilot	posted 07-27- 11:03 AM Kopper, Let's get one thing strait ... "ass" is a three letter word. And I may have "used" four-letter words when "debating" with you but I doubt I ever called you anything worse than a three-letter one. ... But we're arguing semantics again aren't we? RE: Release ths source ... I've reached the conclusion that we will never agree on this point. So what is the use in debating it with you? You believe MH and Inertia should just conviently release the code whilly-nilly and trust that everyone will use it with honest and best intentions ... I call the Inertia's portion of the code "Intellectual" property and fully believe that it would spell certain doom for FS and ANY game based on it ... Anarchy does nothing but provide a calayst for chaos ... IP: Logged
Mighty General	posted 07-27- 02:52 PM The code base isn't yet far enough behind the times to "throw away" like that. As for giving it to the best mod-ers, like SSI did, we've been trying to do that. That's basically what SOS is about. There are legal hassles that prevent Inertia from doing that. Look at the link at the top of the forum list for more info on that. IP: Logged
Laika 801 Pilot	posted 07-27- 03:37 PM quote: It would be technically simple to change. Good to know ! Hope I see this removed before I get old LK IP: Logged
Sv Pilot	posted 07-27- 04:01 PM SDOE is a game that will grow old, but the OpenPlane engine has a great future! Almost all the issues identified center arund the game, not the OpenPlane engine. Even those items that do relate to the engine itself have been identified as simple or basic enhancements. I would rather have a new OpenPlane sim than a patch for an Activision game, wouldn't you? ------------------ -Sv =FC= WWI in SDOE! IP: Logged
Mirthain Pilot	posted 07-27- 09:03 PM Which brings us full circle in this whole argument. See, Activision still owns certain rights to THIS game. Parsoft/Inertia are still bound by the contract that they have with Activision in regards to this game. The engine belongs to Parsoft/Inertia and so they have to maintain some control over what happens to it, so that it doesn't become public domain and ruin all the work they have done and the innovations they have achieved. Want a headache sometime? Read the end user licensing agreements that you gloss over during your next install. Now, that is an easy contract in the software business. I know that MH has broken his patch promises.... But ya know what... I don't really care. I know that he and others on the team are working on it. He and Mighty and others on the team went to bat for US to get at least some of us access to the source so we can help fix some of the problems that we have been bitching about. It also helps get a patch out the door that will have more of the changes that we all want to see, instead of something more limited that could be done in someones spare time. One other point, Parsoft/Inertia NEVER had to support this game. That was supposed to be done by Activision. Period. Parsoft/Inertia would help Activision with support if activision needed some bug fixes. Which was done. Then Activision decided that was the end of that and dropped SDOE like hot rock. Parsoft knew that they wanted more from this sim, so they have worked with us and supported us long after the publisher left. Good luck finding that kind of dedication to a product from another vendor. This type of support is few and far between and one of the reasons this community is still Growing.... We have lost some people, but we have gained some people as well. I would like to see a patch, but I am having fun and enjoying this game even with the bugs she has. Mirthain=FC= IP: Logged
bomber Pilot	posted 07-27- 10:10 PM I don't think anyone understands what I have been tryig to say. I would like people to consider that it is possible that the good will of the flight sim community is worth going without a pay check to gain. I have seen the exposure that the "War" has brought to SDOE. I believe that it is possible that good press for SDOE is the same as money in the bank when it comes to the next sim inertia produces. Having spent my early years on a farm I have a good idea what it means to borrow against an uncertain return and to go without a pay check. That is the life that all small business men live. Now I'm not saying that I know what inertia should do. I just think that it is worth debating the merits of my argument instead of going off on the same old thread insulting people so on and so forth. I would guess we have people in the software development field in this forum and I want to hear from them. IP: Logged
Lothar Pilot	posted 07-27- 10:51 PM Bomber, I know what you are saying. I agree that the flight sim community remembers a company's track record. I'll also mention that the RC Sim isn't meant for the flight sim community, but for the RC plane community in which Inertia will be an unknown company. What you are suggesting is that the owners of Inertia, who are likely not gamers but investors, pay developers to exclusivly work on a product for which they will make no money. This could take many months. The possible payoff would be in increased sales for a hypothetical product after the next one. This would also result in a delay or possible cancellation of the only paying project that they have (RC Sim). The owners of Inertia chose to fund full-time work on the paying project while allowing MH and the SOS crew to continue working on SDOE for free. Realistically, this is pretty good. I know from experience that a small business lives and dies by cash flow. Paying employees for six months without getting any income would destroy most small businesses. There are few enough flight-sim developers. I'd hate to lose another one. All this does make me wish there was a good, open source flight sim engine. Imagine the potential if a sim was the product of the community with no company involved. IP: Logged
kopper JAG	posted 07-27- 10:52 PM Alright, I have been chanting release the source now since May '99. Geez I feel old. Here is the alternative: we get a few of the hotshot programmers who have nothing better to do and they build a new engine to interpret the Open Plane source sm files. This way we can add additional items like horsepower at altitude, superchargers etc. Any takers??? ------------------ Kopper Fortunae Nihil (Nothing to Chance) OPPs Making SDOE a Dangerous place. One plane at a time. IP: Logged
Pang Pilot	posted 07-28- 01:05 AM kopper, I think it took the whole team over 2 years just to get to release. How would starting from scratch help us? IP: Logged
ArgonV Pilot	posted 07-28- 01:11 AM lol Kopper, thats taking it a bit far. I say we all stop complaining, bitching, moaning, or grudging about the patch and get back to plane, terrain, and ground unit building. Hell weve come a long way in this sim when most people thought this sim died when it was released. Its the best sim yet in terms of plane variety (and quality) and its pretty realistic... what more could a simmer ask for? IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 07-28- 01:16 AM Kopper if you're going to do that may as well try and talk the Flight Gear guys into adding openplane support.. I tried and failed when SDOE came but but if we show them all the planes maybe.. I dunno. At least we know Flight Gear is open source and will continue to be developed. Any time invested in it will not go to waste. Bomber, I wouldn't have put this much work into the sim if I knew it wasn't going to get patched and I am disappointed with the current state of things. I'm not laying blame but given past experience I am reluctant to invest more work in SDOE. TS IP: Logged
Sv Pilot	posted 07-28- 08:23 AM quote: All this does make me wish there was a good, open source flight sim engine. Imagine the potential if a sim was the product of the community with no company involved. You don't need to imagine it, just look around at all the great flight sims created without a company and a profit incentive... hmmmm. OpenPlane is is better than open source so long as OpenPlane is allowed to develop further. This development should be fueled by new OpenPlane based games that require OpenPlane enhancements. Since Inertia has released the source code under NDA for the purpose of code review, we can assume that there is at least interest in the development of new OpenPlane games. This is the real future of OpenPlane... there is no real future for SDOE. Again, why should there be? Anything that anyone likes about SDOE is thanks to OpenPlane. Everything that everyone hates about SDOE is outside of OpenPlane and is Activision's. Perfect! Great things take time... ------------------ -Sv =FC= WWI in SDOE! IP: Logged
Lothar Pilot	posted 07-28- 05:14 PM Flight sims seem to be on the losing end of an equation in the computer world that has been going on for years, and will continue. In 1982, I would guess that most computer gamers would be interested in a realistic flight simulator. At least 20-30%. Today I'd guess that number to be closer to 2%. The old-school computer gamers were hardware geeks, and we love flight sims. During the same time, the production time to create what we would consider a 'realistic' flight sim for its time has gone from ~2 man-weeks (an old wireframe 'land the airplane' game I remember on the Apple ][) to several people spending several years. And, game prices have remained flat, or decreased in real dollars. This makes it a hard sell for the game developers looking for investors. The potential money earned for a hit first-person-shooter or puzzle game is just so much better than for a flight sim. Given this environment, it makes sense to offload as much of the work as possible to the user community. Users love building planes, terrain, missions, etc. I hope that OpenPlane continues development, and that it can continue to sell enough copies to make this worthwhile to the developers (did it the first time?). I think that a modest open-source flight sim engine would grow pretty fast. It may take a few years to be as good as commercial sims, but it wouldn't stop being developed. After 10 years it would be much better than any commercial sim. The current model of getting a sim just good enough to ship (full of bugs), loose money, abandon the code, and another company starts again in a few years just won't be able to compete. IP: Logged
bomber Pilot	posted 07-28- 05:59 PM Why don't we all take the $50 we would spend on a box game put it in a pot (escrow account) and hire someone to write an open source code. We might even be able to buy the rights to something some group started and abandonded. If we could get 1000 people to put in $50 we could have one guy and a student for a year. :-) [This message has been edited by bomber (edited 07-28-2000).] IP: Logged
kopper JAG	posted 07-28- 08:32 PM Bomber, I have a few emails out about that very thing. Didn't think of the pay idea though. ------------------ Kopper Fortunae Nihil (Nothing to Chance) OPPs Making SDOE a Dangerous place. One plane at a time. IP: Logged

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