posted 06-28- 01:32 AM               

I'm making this post to draw attention to some serious issues which I'm hoping to get resolved here.

Over a week ago I sent a lengthy email directly to Michael Harrison explaining my plea in full detail and have yet to receive any form of reply. This I find to be rather rude and unprofessional. When someone takes the time to write, you take the time to write back. But I'll overlook that for the moment, because now I'm "writing" again here, publicly. My hopes and intentions in doing so will be to draw a support crowd behind my plea and turn words into action.

Fighter Squadron has all the potential to be a killer online sim. The sim is however plagued with bugs of all kinds. Michael has written a couple patches in the year or so the sims been out to compensate, but more are still in order. The effort to fix things is excellent. The problem is the focus on what to fix.

Give us ground damage that is detected and accounted for on both sides, and implement a winning and losing side, and the sim is reborn.

That's all there is to it...those 2 little things. With those abilities, squad wars can become a reality in this sim. For those thinking you can have squad wars here already with dog fighting and points...you haven't experienced what a squad war is. But some of you I know have, because just like me, you've played NovaLogic F-22 Raptor. Though the sim may suck, they nailed multiplayer. And all I need are these 2 little things and from that I can build an plethora of new squad war missions and other utilities to make squad wars not only possible, but better then nova.

So you may ask, am I just standing on a soap box bitching for more from a company? In some ways yes, in others no. All I'm really doing is saying for them to wake up and smell the potential they left in the dirt.

I admire the fact that michael is taking his own personal time to create little updates for the sim...assuming it really is on his spare time. And if so I can fully understand that dedicating the time to fix all this stuff may be very hard.

That's where the rest of you come in.

I would definitely be willing to BUY a major upgrade to this sim if it ment fixing the things I previously stated. And if all of you can see the same vision I have at the future potential of this sim, I wouldn't see why you wouldn't want to stand beside me in saying that you too would be willing to buy a major upgrade.

I do some coding, and have friends who code as well. And I know that those 2 little things could be fixed in a week tops. You throw a team of programmers behind it, even faster.

The problem is, they obviously don't see any money behind it anymore which is why you don't see a major upgrade from the company. Show them they are wrong and there is money behind the sim yet.

This big world war idea that's going on now is nice, but we can do even better then this if we team up and voice out.

I'm sticking my neck out to break the ice on this topic. Others have asked for things in the past, but no group efforts were ever made, which is why nothing ever got accomplished from it.

I'm not blaming MH for any of this either. The only beef I have there is him not responding to my emails. I am however blaming the company itself for not seeing the true potential behind their creation.

But I'm not here to bitch and moan saying they suck either. I could have ended this a long time ago if that was all I wanted to say. The mistakes are there, and we all know it. Let's look beyond and work together to build a better future for the sim.

Without fixing these bugs, this sim will never have the ability to support true squad wars of any type. Sure there are lots of other little things to be fixed and I'm sure everyone has their own personal list they'd like to see get done first. But all it'll take is those 2 little things I mentioned to get the ball rolling. After that the sky is the limit.

Let's show them we want to support the sim and get a major upgrade. Please reply to this post with a simple "YES I WILL BUY A MAJOR UPGRADE", or a no (with a reason!) and that's all it should take. Granted not everyone who plays reads this board or may take the time to post a reply. But those who do, your voices DO count....use em!

-= Pyro =- ^I^
Chris Kline
Squad Leader of INFERNO

posted 06-28- 02:28 AM               

NO I will not BUY an upgrade. I paid once for this product and that's it...no if, buts or maybe's (correct me if I'm wrong, but MH and his gang "can't" formaly upgrade this product and get paid for it can they ??)

If, on the other hand, I can support MH buy buying 'RC Simulater' - knowing that the fix's would flow on to SDOE (all be it informaly)- then I would.

I have a lot of time and RESPECT for MH/Mighty etc for the way they have stuck buy this community. Which leads me to my last comment ......

Despite you knoble efforts at trying to get something done, comments such as 'rude and unprofessional' should be left off this board. If you have a gripe then attend to it by other (legal) means. MH don't need that sh..t.

posted 06-28- 03:31 AM               

Might be that MH has simply not the time to answer your mails ?!

Hmm - I dont want to "rate" this post in any way, all said long before.

posted 06-28- 09:08 AM               

I think it bares repeating that Activision owns the rights to FSSDOE, there for any "OFFICIAL" batches HAVE to be issued/requested to/by them.

Michael continues to support FS one way or another only through his "best intentions". Despite the fact that he did lead the development of FS, he is in no way now bound to do anything further for FS if he chooses not to. That is just the blatant "FACTS". However, MH is a better person than that ...

He has a "paying" development in process. Only an idiot would stop the paying gig at the moment to address issues in a project that was "technically" finished over a year ago ...

Come on get a clue and give the guy a break!

As far as why he hasen't responded to your email? ... If the tone you took in this post is any indication to your impression ... I'd be answering your email when "I was good and ready" as well ...

NOW ... before you jump down my thoat ... I support your "intentions and gree these things need to be addressed ...

posted 06-28- 10:20 AM            

I too have bitched in the past. That was before I knew that MH doesn't have the rights to the product.

So spare us the rant!

posted 06-28- 10:51 AM               

li'l

P.S.
Hey u all? I would like to remember the water problem!!!!Usually planes sink in water, they don't blow up!!!!!

posted 06-28- 11:16 AM               

Get the ctd problems fixed, the ground bug, and the problem with having to unload your entire stock of ammo into an aircraft to get it to go down.

As much time as I spend with this game online, 20 bucks would be a drop in the bucket.

posted 06-28- 11:31 AM               

Anyways, paying for something that should be financed by Activision already isn't on my top things that thrill me list. MH has graciously done what he has time to do, for free, as has the community with their addon planes, terrains, and automobiles (I couldn't resist ) actually tanks and a wide assortment of other vehicles.

Some bugs will never get fixed, as MH can only do so much, and a sequal to SDOE is out of the question, since Activision probably won't finance it, and they own the name. The best that can be done is a sequal to OpenPlane with a flight sim attached. Who knows, one day, there may be one..

// begin ad and non-related info
To see the graphics engine that I am working with and am talking about, check out PowerRender at www.egerter.com

posted 06-28- 01:33 PM               

I would say we all should keep cool, forget this post like all the others for a while and hope that MH is going well ! Meanwhile we could fix some other things, for instance our planes ?!

posted 06-28- 02:53 PM               

And as has been said several times in the past. There's no way to "...just fix these two bugs." We have one code base, and along with those two fixes you're going to get a lot of not-quite-finished code that's in-progress for RC Sim. That's why the current beta patch isn't quite ready for prime time.

posted 06-28- 05:33 PM               

AGAS: Sounds to me like you WOULD buy a patch, you just don't think they can legally sell one.

JG300x: EAW is a decent sim, but it doesn't have near the complexity of fssdoe. The damage modeling alone sets it apart from anything else.

Laika: Thanks for your support!

ArgonV: Love your optimism. I think you support the idea...

Snicker: No one is undermining what MH is doing for the sim.

Zurowski: Activision may own rights to some things, but that doesn't mean what I'm hoping for is an impossibility.

Propwash: No point in digging up old messages. Just imagine if every presidential speech was identical to the last.

lil' bastard: Thanks for the input...

Jerry: I did just that.

MK10: Thanks for your support! You got the idea...now bring in followers

Whirlwind: I covered this in my original statement. Activision won't support it because they see no money behind it. Prove em wrong.

To the rest of you: Michael emailed me today apologizing for the delay in response. He is apparently working up a massive response as I initially requested which is why it is taking so long. So I in turn apologized to him for over looking that my request required that much time to respond to. The post I made here is not what I originally sent MH. My proposal to him was to aid him in any way I can to resolve the problems with the sim and I asked for a detailed description of the current problems. I too am offering my services for free, because all I want is a better sim for myself and my squadron.

For those of you who just focused on 1 line of that massive post about MH not replying, I suggest you read it again and skip that line.

You all have NOTHING TO LOSE by siding and saying you want a major upgrade. If it takes another 50 bucks, who cares? We'd have the most kick ass sim ever! Sure beats going to the store and spending 50 on another sim that "claims" to have all these great things and flops. I personally own just about every sim ever released. Nothing has the potential quite like FS does thanks to openplane. So keep those replies comin in!

posted 06-28- 06:38 PM               

Well done on your reply

I guess the issue for me mainly is a moral one of directing any funds for a fix to MH & his gang and not to Activision.

Hence my second point, as this is the only way I can see this happening (+ I like RC stuff )

Cheers,

posted 06-28- 08:00 PM               

Salute to you all that have made this game so much more then Activision ever sup[ported MH and all!

posted 06-29- 08:16 AM               

I will stand by what I said. I will wait for the next product released (WWII scenario) by MH and crew that uses OpenPlane. If by some miracle you get Activision to release an update to this one, I would consider it, carefully.

I am glad some of you have $50 to drop so fast, want to drop some my way?

------------------
Snickers
=FC=

posted 07-02- 08:30 AM            

This sim is so fun, yet lacks anything to do with ground attack (and I am refering to online play here.) Sure there are bombs, rockets and targets, etc. but for what use? You get no score, Axis or Allied are not declared a winner. Heck, in the SDOE War some poor sole has to sit out the fight as an observer! Let the sim do the assessment, and everyone fly!

If you don't think "WAR" squad syle is fun, go check the hundreds of squads listed in Novaworld! I think I have counted less than a half dozen with this sim.

Look at all the servers, and only one is used, part time at that! Lets fill those suckers up man!

I know the sim was not originally designed with this in mind.... That's why Pyro's plea for an upgrade!

Hell, I already got free stuff....
Planes, ground targets, SDOE Control, SDOE Beeper, missions, etc. and more are added every time I look!

Once the fixes are made.... and the word goes out..... holy shit! Look out the WARS ARE ON!

This sim is way to good to let this end!

posted 07-02- 05:55 PM               

I also concurr 100% with the thrust of this thread. It seems like this sim is SO CLOSE to being great for squad competition. It really would only take a few fixes. I certainly don't know what's involved in terms of hours or in terms of legality, but it would be worth $50 to me to have the fixes. Heck, I think what I have received so far in free add-ons just from fellow users has been worth well over $50. Maybe I'm a little off, but I have always been amazed at the relatively low retail prices for good flight sims. Considering what you get, our hobby is pretty reasonable.

posted 07-02- 06:54 PM               

I think you may be incorrect in who owns what of SDOE. My understanding from MH clarifying this in the past is that Activision owns the rights to the name 'Fighter Squadron: Screaming Demons over Europe' and to the code for the servers.

Open Plane is a TM of Inertia now as well as the source code of what's left. This means the code that interprets the open plane models, etc.

Inertia has finally allowed releasing of the source for the purpose of studying it. To my knowledge we can't use it to fix any problems yet.

There was a flurry of activity a few weeks ago, or was it months ago about the patch. I guess it started with my flame post in 'flame wars.' Since then a few people have helped test it. I believe the patch is suppose to fix the CTD, the ground object damage bug and the bomb bug if I don't miss my guess.

If the patch can be finalized and released it would fix the items that Pyro has asked for.

------------------
Kopper

Fortunae Nihil
(Nothing to Chance)
OPPs Making SDOE a Dangerous place.
One plane at a time.

posted 07-02- 07:37 PM            

Like it or not, from the developer's stand point, SDOE is dead. No more money to pump in it. I'm sure the sales were very bad...I blame it on Activi$ion.

I also do believe that you will eventually see another WW2 type game from Inertia. The key to this happening is the Ripmax RC Simulator. I will buy it upon release without hesitation. If you want to see a SDOE II, then I would advise you guys to do the same. It takes a lot of money to make a sim. MH and crew need to make money off of this RC gig really bad in order to have a future WWII type project.

If this RC sim expands and enhances OpenPlane, then that is even better. With the talented base of individuals now, plus the other people that may be drawn to this new sim, it has a chance to really do well. Granted, it may not be WWII, but with OpenPlane, as we all know, anything is possible.

For numerous reasons flight sims are dying off fast. Now that I 'work' in the industry I can sorta see why. The amount of time and money spent is mind-boggling. If your sim doesn't return anything, then it's all over. Part of the problem is developers not listening to the masses of sim users that faithfully pour money into sims and sim related expenses. Look at Flanker 2 and Falcon 4.0. Flanker has better graphics, and (arguably) better flight model, and was 3000% more stable out of the box than Flacon 4.0 was. It took Falcon over a year, 4+ official patches, 2 last minute patches from laid off coders, and a whole slew of hex mods to become the game that it is today. Yet, Falcon 4 has sold upteen more copies than Flanker 2, the message boards have 10 times the activity over Flanker 2 and is the most popular (IMHO) jet sim to date. Why? Cause Falcon 4 has what people want. Immersion and the appearance of realism. Flanker 2 is boring, has no dynamic campaign and very poor coms. The dynamic campaign sets Falcon apart from any other. The Su27, in it's Cryllic (spelling) glory, isn't exactly the best aircraft to study. (in this ex-Air Force, America rules, redneck's opinion)

If the developers come out with exciting, immersive sims, people will buy them. If they choose to support their product, that's even better. Pretty soon, online, pay-per-play are the only flight sims you are gonna see if something doesn't change. And I know Siggi doesn't approve of that.

posted 07-02- 08:00 PM               

My 2 cents

posted 07-02- 09:39 PM               

I think DanW has pretty well nailed it. I think with some developers buying the OpenPlane engine, it could mushroom a bit.

I'll be there with whatever they need for Ripmax's RC Sim. I've saved a ton of money by playing pretty much just SDOE for the last however long it's been.

------------------
Pang 33rd~GS
33rd Strike Group

posted 07-03- 02:18 AM               

I know what most of you said and meant, (Dan and others), but I'm with Pyro. Even up to now, with all that's out to purchase in the malls, I ALWAYS go back to SDOE after trying the new stuff for a day or two. Nothing can touch it.

Nothing.

posted 07-03- 08:55 AM               

I admit it ... your right. (damn that hurt).. I was just painting a larger picture with a big brush!

Like I said ... I'm all for fixing what's broke. But also like I said earlier ... there is no "real" financial perk for MH to reduce his current focus on his RC sim (cash-cow if you will).. to address things in sim long since finished by all accounts.

I have to say, I'm in 100% agreeance with DanW ... The only REAL way to garner support for FS is to support any developments in MH & companies porfolio ...

... As I see it, since they all are/will be based off of the Openplane engine. Each one will bring bigger and better things to FS via the "trickle-down" ecconomics!

posted 07-03- 11:27 AM            

Who's doing the "Patch" you mentioned above and is there a place or post that outlines what's in it?

As for those who don't want to pay because we should have had it to begin with.... I agree, but the bottom line is we DO NOT have all that would make this the KILLER sim, THE BEST OF THE BEST! What are you going to do? Go spend money on another sim? Why not spend it on this one, at least you know what you have.

How much do you spend on a music CD, movie or just one meal out on the town. Come on guys the price of a SIM.... this is very inexpensive entertainment.

Where else can you compete against others accross the WORLD and not have to leave the conveniences of your home.... Don't the rest of you have your wife or girl friend bringing your beer and snacks while you fly? hehe

posted 07-03- 01:08 PM               

It's not entirely fair to say Activision rushed out the game... There's a point where they can't exactly keep throwing money at a product that it won't make back. So either they cancel it (Attack Squadron) or you throw it in a box and ship it.

I'm glad they picked option 2, myself.

I paid $45 at EB the day it came out and I've never been disappointed... but I will never pay for, basically, a patch for a game.

But throw in a Pacific terrain, working carriers, torpedos, and some nice pacific theater planes and I'll buy that the day it's released.

posted 07-03- 01:57 PM            

Hi Pyro, I don't know you, and don't take this the wrong way, but many people on this board have read posts that are similar to your posts for more than a year now. I think I wrote the first one.

It would take me a week to recount the related info that would give you the whole history of trying to improve SDOE for squad vs. squad matches. My original (20, or so) missions were written based on making exciting squad vs. squad challenges.

What you are asking for is not going to happen.

I still have SDOE on the HD, and as I've said so, so many times - it's just so bittersweet that SDOE was "almost" the WWII flight sim for squad vs. squad matches.

But let's not cry too much for SDOE. Look at what happened to Flight Combat (most recently Jane's Attack Squadron). From the last set of screenshots that I saw, that sim would have blown SDOE out of the water. But that sim is now vaporware. At least SDOE really did make it to the shelves.

Nice to read your posts again guys. I'm still quite active in flight simming (how could I *not* be! ). You can find me in Ace's High, Falcon 4, Jane's F/A-18, or - what seems to have the potential to be the highest quality WWII sim - the upcoming WWII Online.

posted 07-03- 04:31 PM               

Look at Janes USAF, Falcon 4, and Flanker 2.
Forget about what key features they boast about and simplify down to the basic sim itself. What do you have?

Single player "flight sim" that allows you to fly 1 or more planes around a simplistic environment against crappy ai.

Now let's add back in those key features they boast about.

hmm....give me a minute to think....oh ok, a dynamic campaign! No wait, killer multiplayer...er if you call 8 people on a pier to pier game doing nothing but dogfighting killer.

Sure you can be really picky and argue that some of those have better flight handling. Little radio chatter options. Maybe nicer graphics.

Now stop and reread those last 2 paragraphs. That's what you've really been shelling 50 bucks out for every time you've bought a sim. And that is nothing more then a patch. Most of you don't know it but take NovaLogic sims as a great example. Even a blind man can see that F-22 lighting, F-22 Lightning 2, F-22 Raptor, F-22 Lightning 3, F-16, Mig-29, and even Tachyon all use the EXACT SAME ENGINE SOURCE CODE. Sure they modified a couple things, changed a few graphics (cough PATCH!), but you pay 50 bucks for each one off the shelf.

So if you all want to wait around in hopes that intertia is gonna release yet another WW2 sim, I'll bet you anything it uses the exact same source as FS with nothing more then minor changes to make it "appear" a little different.

So you see, ever since you bought your second flight sim, all you've ever really been doing is buying patches.

As for this RC sim...you think there's no money behind flight sims? Well I can bet the RC sim market is even lower. And if activision is handling the distribution, they are doomed. They would make far more money to go back and satisfy the fans they already have (or had) by revamping FS then to try to tap into an entirely new group of fans.

Activision is 100% at fault for FS's current status. They failed to do any significant advertising to attract anyone. As I said before, I own practically every sim ever made, read pc gamer monthly, and I never saw a single ad for this sim. I dug it up on a web search a year after it's release. Another big factor is Microsofts involvement with Activision. MS of course has Combat Flight Sim. So do you think it would be wise to allow someone else to put out a better sim? It's all politics poeple. If the people who made these sims actually played them and didn't have a corporation barking at them, we wouldn't see so many no brainer mistakes out there.

Right now you see every new sim coming out rushing to offer some sort of new dynamic campaign and of course, they ever infamous "better ai". While these companies waste thousands of hours and resources to make these things slightly better, they overlook the greatest form of spontaneous intelligence on the planet, that requires no coding....

The human opponent.

History can already prove the popularity a game can have if it is single player verses multiplayer. Just try to imagine quake being single player oriented. Bye bye ID Software.
Sure there are good single player games out there too, but in the sim world, it's multiplayer or bust.

Now with all these facts presented, maybe some of you who said "NO" to buying a "patch", or new sim as I call it, might want to rethink that answer...you really have nothing to lose.