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Author	Topic: Frustrating AI crashes
Saint19 Cadet	posted 06-01- 03:29 AM Hi, I'm new to the SDOE world. But I have a question. I'm getting better at takeoffs...but not the AI. I was trying to do the SubHunt mission as well as another mission flying the FW190's. Well the AI always veers off of the runway and then crashes into a building or something. Therefore I'm left to take care of the mission myself. I've tried it like 6 times and the same thing happens each time. I'm using the SDOE with 1.5 patch(not beta patches), plane packs 5.3, and 5.3b, and Contest Pack 1.1. I followd the instructions from the online standard page and loaded them in that order. But I guess that wouldn't affect the AI. I'm really trying to like SDOE cuz EAW bought me into the ww2 sim world recently and I love that sim. So I thought I try SDOE as well. But I hate the feeling of being alone up there cuz the AI can't take off. Does this happen to you guys? Is there a way to fix it? The other thing is that I was told you could spin these aircraft now. Well I've done quite a few training exercises and dogfights with the AI and it stalls..but never spins. I've done lots of test flights trying to get it to spin..but nothing happens. In EAW it spins a lot. I'm not saying that its a good spin..but it still teaches you to be easy on the stick and to respect the AOA of your aircraft. I have all settings on full real...but sill nothing. I don't want to spin necessarily...but I do want the feeling of having to guard against spins. That doesn't happen if you know you can just yank the stick back as far as you want and still nothing happens. Oh well...sorry for the long post. I look forward to your answers. Nice meeting you all. Saint19 P.S. I'd like to thank the guys who showed me the ropes online the other Tuesday night. Jaguar, Blitz, and I forgot the other guys names. But you know who you are. Thank you for being so patient. IP: Logged
Jerry Pilot	posted 06-01- 10:47 AM I had a similar conversation with Jeeves the other night. I was starting his Dover2 Mission set and both the FW's and JU88's were crashing into buildings on takeoff. We both agreed it has to do with some recent FM tweaking. I guess the trade off is accurate inflight FM vs AI ability to takeoff. Sure spoils a lot of missions, both on and offline. Until the AI gets smarter I vote for AI takeoffs. IP: Logged
slk unregistered	posted 06-01- 10:58 AM Saint19, First of all did you write the mission? If so did you give the AI the proper coordinates and assign them a waypoint that conflicted with the arangement of the take off area? If all else fails try rewriting the mission so that it's an air start. Give the AI altitude and velocity and this will work for you... Psi Jerry come see me in "Flame Wars" "letter to Zool" has been changed to........ IP: Logged
Jerry Pilot	posted 06-01- 11:18 AM slk, your answer doesn't explain why the same problem exists in Jeeves Dover2 Campaign. I'm sure his missions used to work or he wouldn't have released them, or at least he would have fixed them if there was a problem before now. IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 06-01- 12:47 PM Is this the 190A4? If so send me any missions where the AI doesn't take off and I will make sure to get it working for the next version. TS IP: Logged
Jerry Pilot	posted 06-01- 01:14 PM Tail, try Mission one of Jeeve's Dover2 Campaign. I'm at work and can't send it right now. Also, I belive mission three. IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 06-01- 01:16 PM Where do I get the campaign? IP: Logged
Jerry Pilot	posted 06-01- 01:51 PM I just sent you the zip. It was at SimFiles. IP: Logged
slk unregistered	posted 06-01- 02:07 PM Ahhhh ya your right Jerry, If you'll notice I was directing my response to Saint19. And if you'll notice it has more questions than answers. I don't have all the answers but I do try to help whenever possible... Psi IP: Logged
Jeeves Pilot	posted 06-01- 02:49 PM You are right, Jerry- which is why sometimes it takes so long to release a campaign. I start making a mission one plane at a time...and watch at least 5-10 times each plane to make sure it takes off OK. The 190, 109's, and 88's I always have problems with-- usually the 190 and 109 run into buildings so I change runways and different orientations until I get them taking off right. Abbeville Field is one of the most notorious for the German fighters running into buildings. Maybe the best solution is to make the fields bigger so the buildings aren't so close to the runway? The 88 is notorious for running out of runway and hitting the hedgelines-- it takes sometimes hours of tweaking weights, headings, etc to get them all to work fine. But then-- after a couple new FM releases, those older missions don't work so well. As I told you before-- it takes enormous amounts of timme for me to go back after each FM tweak if I was to revamp all the missions-- time I would rather spend on new campaigns!! As it is-- really the only changes I make to mmy prior campaigns is to add in new planes where they fit (like the Hurricane and T'bolt)-- so right now- I just don't have time to re-edit all those previous campaigns. If there ever comes a day when the FM's are tweaked as far as they can be-- then I might go back and revamp old campaigns-- so we'll leave that up to Tail and Zur ------------------ Brought to you by the campaign for a better Dauntless! IP: Logged
Saint19 Cadet	posted 06-01- 02:52 PM Thanx for your answers guys. I'm new to this game. I remember one of the missions was called SubHunt. I thought that was a default mission. I don't remember the name of the other mission I played. I haven't downloaded any missions yet. The only things that I have downloaded are the patch, planepacks 5.3, 5.3b, Contest pack 1.1. Having the AI crash that way is a real problem for me as I like doing single play very much. I enjoyed the online though. Saint19 IP: Logged
Jeeves Pilot	posted 06-01- 03:04 PM Saint19-- I am mostly offline as well- as can be told by the missions I make. They normally don't work too well online-- too many planes and ground objects....but very immersive (at least I think so). There are actually many campaigns you can choose from when you get bored of the missions from the original game. I have 4 out...and many others have released some quality campaigns. I have a great one done just for the B-17-although I forget who created it...and someone (semmern?) recently did a Battle of Britain and a Russian campaign as well. Lots of fun!! Most f these types of things are founs either at the Hanger or at simfiles. Zoycite's site might still have some of my campaigns as well, but I haven't heard from him in a long time. ------------------ Brought to you by the campaign for a better Dauntless! [This message has been edited by Jeeves (edited 06-01-2000).] IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 06-01- 03:23 PM Jeeves, if you get a chance try downloading the beta planes and running your campaigns through them before the plane packs come out. After they come out it's too late to do anything until the next pack. TS IP: Logged
Pachy Pilot	posted 06-01- 03:26 PM Saint19, The FW190A4 is pretty much broken in the 5.3b release. (I already complained about this http://www.fightersquadron.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000331.html ). When a plane pack is released, the new and hopefully more realistic FMs makes take-offs more difficuly on the AI. But this very version of the FW190A4 is totally broken, probably a corrupted thing that made its way into the online standard by error. I have tried the SubHunt mission and was unable to take off on the runway. I think the AI is not at fault here. Now, the problem you are having is the 190A4 is the only german fighter used in original missions. I hope a PP patch will appear soon and fix the A4, in the meantime I suggest you download user-created missions that use other planes. Or maybe you could start learning how to make your own missions. All the 109's and the 190's A3, A8 and D9 in their current online standard versions fly very well. IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 06-01- 03:35 PM Hi Pachy, you obviously didn't read this: http://www.fightersquadron.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000803.html IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 06-01- 03:39 PM The A3 still has the same problem of the old A4 of climbing much much to well (> 5000fpm) IP: Logged
Pachy Pilot	posted 06-01- 03:59 PM Thanks for replying TS. So moving back the wings was in fact intentional? Can you explain a little more what you mean by "modelling sweepback", pls? I still don't understand. And well, uh, sure I could rotate the lods in AC3D... But are you really really sure we need to do this? OK I'll do it... If you promise that you'll fix the ground handling IP: Logged
Jeeves Pilot	posted 06-01- 04:28 PM Well Tail-- Sure-- the next time the PP is in beta testing for the OPPs team, I'm sure I'll get the e-mail like everyone else and I will try the planes out in the missions-- but why? What will it do? Maybe since the campaigns worked for the older planes that were screwed up in the FM-- maybe instead of changing the planes for the missions, we need to change the missions? No wait!!! Actually... I take that back-- if the AI was correct for the planes, I would think that no matter what runway you were on, the planes should stay on the runway and not hit buildings. I really don't think that this is an FM thing- I think it's really an AI ground handling thing. Is this something that can only be fixed through the source code? ------------------ Brought to you by the campaign for a better Dauntless! IP: Logged
Pachy Pilot	posted 06-01- 04:54 PM Sub Hunt AI takeoffs with all FW190A variants. Test ran twice. A3's: all planes take off OK. However the 3rd plane went to the right of the runway. A4's: all planes swing very hard to the left, and eventually crash in one of the hangars. A8's: the 3rd plane hits the building on the right side of the runway. IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 06-01- 05:26 PM I test the FM with a few missions but there are a lot of factors like fuel load, wind, etc etc that means something like this will sneak through. I've got the AI taking off fine in your mission now Jeeves I can send you a copy of the new 190 if you want but to avoid conflicts I won't post it.. Hi Pachy, this will make this clearer. This is the yak and the stock 190 that came with the game. The yellow box is the angle the FM considers the wing at. See how the box is parallel to the wing in the yak model? As far as the FM is concerned the 190 wing was sticking straight out from the plane at 90 degrees. IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 06-01- 05:33 PM If you or anyone feels like doing this I can send you the latest .sm file.. if theres a good reason not to do this at all I can undo the change though. TS IP: Logged
Army puke SFC Pilot	posted 06-01- 07:22 PM Yeah, and the SDOE airborne AI is very poor. I designed a mission where I was a JU188 against around 15 allied fighters and i made it to base with some bullet holes but no serious dmg. Why, cos the AI keeps barrel rolling behind me and kept crashing into each other or into the ground. --------------------------------------------- this is an unstoppable bomber: By Pete Hawk IP: Logged
Saint19 Cadet	posted 06-01- 08:57 PM This doesn't look good. Saint19 IP: Logged
Jeeves Pilot	posted 06-01- 08:58 PM Sure Tail-- Send it along and I'll try her out. I will also use my campaigns from now on when I beta test the new plane packs to help out with feedback. Guess I never thought about it before... ------------------ Brought to you by the campaign for a better Dauntless! [This message has been edited by Jeeves (edited 06-01-2000).] IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 06-01- 09:48 PM I noticed ALL the planes in your campaign mission 2 turf on takeoff even the spit Vs and the Ju-88. I'll see what I can do for the spit, I can't remember whos working on the 88. TS IP: Logged
Jeeves Pilot	posted 06-01- 10:12 PM Well Jeez... All I gotta say is they worked when I made and released the damn thing ------------------ Brought to you by the campaign for a better Dauntless! IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 07-27- 04:38 PM bump for yardstick IP: Logged
Yardstick Pilot	posted 07-28- 03:54 AM Thanks Tail. ------------------ Yardstick painted this IP: Logged
Laika 801 Pilot	posted 07-28- 04:23 AM Tail ??? Should I change the angle of the Pe2 wings too ???? IP: Logged
Pachy Pilot	posted 07-28- 04:40 AM I'm not convinced by this sweepback idea. I understand what Tailslide is trying to do, but I'm not sure the FM will use this extra parameter. My opinion is, as long as the airfoil points (ie blue arrows in OPS) are correctly positioned (ie at reasonable distance from the leading edge, and of course symmetrically-this was a problem on the Tempest beta), then everything should be fine. IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 07-28- 08:53 AM The orientation of the airfoil in the other axis (dihedral) seems to affect the FM, and was one of the things changed on the 109 to improve its flying characteristics. Sweepback appears to have the right affect as well although I can't say for sure. I know it has some effect since rotating an airfoil totally sideways to the plane has an effect. Rotating an airfoil partly sideways should also have an effect. Like I said TWO MONTHS ago Pachy, "if theres a good reason not to do this at all I can undo the change though." Should I undo it ? TS [This message has been edited by Tailslide (edited 07-28-2000).] IP: Logged
Pachy Pilot	posted 07-28- 09:22 AM quote: The orientation of the airfoil in the other axis (dihedral) seems to affect the FM Agreed. But in this case the orientation of the blue arrow (that's the lift vector, as I understand it) has "visually" changed. Now, if you apply sweepback, the orientation of the arrow does not change. That's why I thought the resultant applied forces would be the same, but I could be wrong (maybe there is lenghtening of the apparent chord?) IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 07-28- 09:32 AM "I know it has some effect since rotating an airfoil totally sideways to the plane has an effect. Rotating an airfoil partly sideways should also have an effect." I was referring to sweepback not dihedral.. IP: Logged
Pachy Pilot	posted 07-28- 09:45 AM quote: rotating an airfoil totally sideways to the plane has an effect OK. I will test this, rotate (not move) the airfoil 90 degrees, while keeping the mass properties identical. If you're right I will keep my big mouth shut for quite some time on the FM subject, I promise. IP: Logged
Bryan Russell Pilot	posted 07-28- 10:38 AM One thing to keep in mind is that the airPT is actually a point, and not a vector. I just show it as a vector becuase it would be a) Difficult to see as a point b) It helps to see if you have your wing up the right way I wouldn't be surprised if the game actually looked at the airPoint from all axis, in which case what Tailslide is talking about is perfectly valid. If I remember rightly, there was almost this exact same sort of discussion about dihedral when that concept was first floated. Surely there must be some way to set the sweep at each extreme and see if there is a difference. Bryan IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 07-28- 10:43 AM I did a quick and dirty one but I didnt get things lined up exactly so I don't trust it. Any luck Pachy? IP: Logged
Maury Markowitz Pilot	posted 07-28- 11:50 AM quote: Originally posted by Jerry: I had a similar conversation with Jeeves the other night. I was starting his Dover2 Mission set and both the FW's and JU88's were crashing into buildings on takeoff. We both agreed it has to do with some recent FM tweaking. Yeah, but _I_ can barely get most of the planes airborne now! At some point during the takeoff roll - randomly it seems - the plane wil veer strongly in one direction or the other and nothing will keep it lined up. It's sudden and FAR stronger than the control forces. Something's fubar. Maury IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 07-28- 11:55 AM Hi Maury, this got fixed about two months ago (old thread and unfortunately older plane pack). IP: Logged
Laika 801 Pilot	posted 07-28- 03:04 PM Ha ! Gentlemen ! I need some clear (crystal clear) instructions, does it or not or what ?? I think I take it easy now LK IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 07-28- 03:17 PM How did the test go Pachy ? IP: Logged

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