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Author	Topic: The Uber F4F is INSANE
Spanky the Mad Dog Pilot	posted 05-23- 04:39 AM S [This message has been edited by Spanky the Mad Dog (edited 05-25-2000).] IP: Logged
Nat Pilot	posted 05-23- 08:45 AM Spanky, I think your'll find (although I might be wrong) that the A6M5 is also a little "unter" from reports I've read of some of the first encounters in the war against it.. it blew the crap out of the Americans until it was swamped in numbers and the pilots got used to it's flight charachteristics, from what I've read, it out climbed almost all US aircraft and was faster.. now I admit that I have no tech data to show for this, just from reports by US pilots I've seen on the net, infact I posted one some time ago, that should how a flight of F4F's were cut to shreads by Zero's. So i'm thinking that this problem might be a combination of both, but it does seem to me that the Zero bleeds E so fast it's scarey to fly. Maybe the guys can look into both, but I've had a similar experience as you with the F4F vs Zero... 3 on 3, the F4's wipped us Zeros out no probs, then we switched a/c, and yes... then we wipped the Zeros out. It is a lot of fun to fly though, and so is the Zero, but a little "tweaking" may be in order between them ~Nat~ IP: Logged
Spanky the Mad Dog Pilot	posted 05-23- 11:20 AM S [This message has been edited by Spanky the Mad Dog (edited 05-25-2000).] IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 05-23- 12:16 PM I like the zero once the p51 gets toned down from it's current 5200fpm climb rate there should be some good 2v2 fights between those.. TS IP: Logged
Spanky the Mad Dog Pilot	posted 05-23- 12:59 PM S [This message has been edited by Spanky the Mad Dog (edited 05-25-2000).] IP: Logged
Condor Pilot	posted 05-23- 01:46 PM Spanky, If you want to know if your high kill rate is because of your skills or the F4F just fly a mission with say 3 F4F's vs 3 enemy F4F's or you could join the KING OF THE HILL COMPETITION I have set up and then you would really know. Condor out ------------------ IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 05-23- 02:50 PM Spanky, I'm not "read up" on the f4f performance specs and I haven't flown it online a lot. TS IP: Logged
Nat Pilot	posted 05-23- 03:38 PM Tail, I just wanted to say I hope I didn't sound overly critical of the Zero, see the problem isn't neccessarily in the Zero, but might be in the a/c I've flown against in it, could well be as you said with the 51 that others are overpowered, all I really could say is that there does seem to be a big difference IP: Logged
Mighty Pilot	posted 05-23- 05:21 PM One reason the F4F was torn up at the beginning of the war is the Japanese already had battle experience against the Chinese. They'd been fighting for a couple of years before Pearl Harbor. The US pilots tended to be newbies that didn't fly to the strength of their aircraft. Apparently, one of the favorite tactics of the Zero pilots was to sucker the Wildcat into a climb. When the Wildcat stalled, the Zero still had plenty of margin to flip over and nail the Wildcat before it could recover. Later in the war the US doctrine for new flyers was, "If you don't have the advantage, dive away. You'll out-accelerate the light Japanese fighters and you can reengage on your own terms." IP: Logged
Nat Pilot	posted 05-23- 06:26 PM but with our Zero, the power bleeds so fast I wouldn't dare the Yamato into a climbing race let alone an F4F IP: Logged
Spyder Pilot	posted 05-23- 07:18 PM Isn't it just because the F4f and F4u's haven't had any fm tweaks? We flew some missions the other night and there weren't any stall or spin behaviours that the 5.3 planes have in them, thus making the zero lose outright due to it having some fm vs non uber fm. ------------------ IP: Logged
Spanky the Mad Dog Pilot	posted 05-23- 10:41 PM S [This message has been edited by Spanky the Mad Dog (edited 05-25-2000).] IP: Logged
Razor747 Pilot	posted 05-23- 10:47 PM Spanky, Rob Falck & myself built the F4F. Work is taking up most of my time now and the little I have, I am flying RC planes. I will try and get something new out this weekend with the F4F. ------------------ James "Razor747" Smith Check out the SDOE Flight Line! I am constantly adding new things. Click on image above to go to my site. [This message has been edited by Razor747 (edited 05-23-2000).] IP: Logged
Spanky the Mad Dog Pilot	posted 05-24- 12:14 AM S [This message has been edited by Spanky the Mad Dog (edited 05-25-2000).] IP: Logged
d0gmA General	posted 05-24- 06:59 AM God spanky why don't you just complain about everyones work except your own. Hows that P40 coming along is the flight and damage model right on or what ? IP: Logged
Spanky the Mad Dog Pilot	posted 05-24- 07:15 AM S [This message has been edited by Spanky the Mad Dog (edited 05-25-2000).] IP: Logged
mposis Pilot	posted 05-24- 10:28 AM Spanky had the same comments when I first released the Zero. Spanky just needs to be a little more patient. ------------------ IP: Logged
Spanky the Mad Dog Pilot	posted 05-24- 10:46 AM S [This message has been edited by Spanky the Mad Dog (edited 05-25-2000).] IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 05-24- 11:05 AM Which version of the F4F is this? I have some info on the F4F-4 http://firelight.dynip.com/PlaneStats/f4f-4.pdf Maximum speed: 320mph Wing Loading: 30.7 lb/sqft Initial Climb Rate Mil power: 2500fpm Climb rate from 3000 to 12000 feet: 2150 fpm Above 14000 feet climb rate drops sharply. Time to climb to 10,000 feet (normal power) 5.6 minutes Time to climb to 20,000 feet (normal power) 12.4 minutes TS ------------------ Patch It! TS Aircombat IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 05-24- 11:08 AM Also this: rate of climb F4F-4, and FM-1, USN data climb speed 144 to 154 mph IAS test plane weight 7,975 lbs take off rate of climb at altitude 2,500 fpm at sea level 2,100 fpm at 5,000 ft 2,100 fpm at 10,000 ft 1,500 fpm at 15,000 ft 1,150 fpm at 20,000 ft 600 fpm at 25,000 ft speed at altitude tas F-4F-4 and FM-1 USN data test plane weight 7,975 lbs take off 285 mph at sea level 290 mph at 5,000 ft 305 mph at 10,000 ft 310 mph at 15,000 ft 320 mph at 20,000 ft 310 mph at 25,000 ft 285 mph at 30,000 ft roll velocity degree per second F4F at mph IAS 52 degrees at 150 mph IAS 66 degrees at 200 mph IAS 69 degrees at 250 mph IAS 65 degrees at 300 mph IAS 60 degrees at 350 mph IAS DIVE AND RECOVERY The book lists a max safe mach number of 0.66 from all that I have gathered the wildcat just did not pick up a whole lot of speed to get itself into trouble. It says the aircraft was quite steady in a dive; there could be a slight tendency to rool and some longitudinal instability however. MANEUVERING max g load was listed as 7.5 g's for 7,700 lbs and 7.0 g's for 8200 lbs Pilots had comments like "Needed plenty of stick handling to get the best out of it"' and "It was truly a wildcat if you didnt fly it, it flew you." "Heavy to maneuver; needs lighter controls", and had "Heavy controls; heavy elevators in a turn". In addition "Heavy ailerons and slow rolling", and again "Heavy rudder in a turn". So the general consensus was the controls, while generally effective and nicely harmonized, were "heavy". The aircraft was reported by all to have good stability "It was stable to fly; displayed good stability". got tired do not feel like posting stalls and spins until I know for sure you guys are going to use them bolillo_loco posted 03-23-100 09:51 PM CT (US) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- engine power settings at altitude F4F-4 take off 1,200 hp sea level military 1,200 hp up to 1,800 ft military 1,040 hp up to 18,400 ft normal 1,100 hp up to 3,300 ft normal 1,030 hp up to 13,000 ft ------------------ Patch It! TS Aircombat IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 05-24- 11:11 AM Wow it was a real piggy, eh? IP: Logged
rattlesnake Pilot	posted 05-24- 02:34 PM >>>Jeez. Never mind from now on I'll shut up.<<< Can I get an AMEN brother?!?! ------------------ -=BAB=- Rattlesnake Bad Ass Bulldogs http://www.oldpostoffice.com/badass IP: Logged
Falck Pilot	posted 05-24- 03:28 PM As far as Im concerned my involvement with the F4F is through. If its alright with Razor747 whoever wants to work on the FM (cough spanky cough) can do so. I wanted to play some SDOE the other day but it freezes a few seconds into gameplay. Think its my vid card, but not sure. IP: Logged
Spyder Pilot	posted 05-24- 07:19 PM AMEN! ------------------ [This message has been edited by Spyder (edited 05-24-2000).] IP: Logged
Mk10 225th Pilot	posted 05-25- 12:49 AM LOL, gosh, everybody just kick Spanky why dont'cha? Mk10=225th= IP: Logged
Spyder Pilot	posted 05-25- 07:23 AM It would be like that scene out of Flying High, all lining up! teehee ------------------ IP: Logged
jedi Pilot	posted 05-25- 09:31 AM Corsair meets its "real life" flight numbers within 5% on everything I've tested--max speed at all alts, climb rates, stall speeds. Don't know how to test for turn rate without any external measuring capability, but I can't outturn a Zero in it offline. Trying to make the stall and spin stuff more unforgiving, but a consequence of getting the C of G and inertia and fuel tank RIGHT and making it more stable for takeoffs is that it doesn't depart controlled flight quite so easily as it should. Can't get it to "bleed" energy the way it should either, but OTOH I can turn ANY of the FW-190s at 200 mph in a max-G turn indefinitely without it ever stalling, so some of this is software-related, not just FM-tweak related. There are several planes you can simply put in a flat turn, pull to full stick deflection, and the plane will reach some equilibrium speed and stay there, when in fact EVERY plane ever built should have its speed decay to the point of stall in that situation. So the Hog DOES in fact have a flight model The Zero would be twice the plane it is now if the gunsight was moved up a few millimeters and made bigger. Being able to actually SEE the target you're shooting at is kind of an advantage IMO the gunsight in the Zero could be set up a little better for close-in fighting. ------------------ --jedi-- IP: Logged
jedi Pilot	posted 05-25- 09:35 AM Well, maybe not TWICE the plane it is now. Hard to make a plane that nice TWICE as good as it already is ------------------ --jedi-- IP: Logged
Jerry Pilot	posted 05-25- 11:25 AM Jedi, have you tried turning the Corsair with half flaps? Offline I can turn with the Zero (usually). Just keep the speed a little above stall. The AI pilots don't do too well at slow speeds. Once you are behind the Zero, raise flaps and go to full throttle to close in and maintain energy. IP: Logged
Spyder Pilot	posted 05-25- 07:22 PM Spanky don't you stand by what you believe in? Either way, if you saw the light or something you could easily have added a post to that effect. ------------------ IP: Logged
Spanky the Mad Dog Pilot	posted 05-25- 07:33 PM Spanky here.. Well seeing how I never said anything wrong in the first place, I didn't see any reason to continue. Fact is I stated 3 times in this thread that I wasn't flaming or saying anything bad. The whole reason for posting was to ask if anyone was thinking of doing any FM work on it cause I was considering it. IP: Logged
Spyder Pilot	posted 05-25- 08:18 PM Why not go on with your P40 project? I'm sure it will be worthwhile to see it. ------------------ IP: Logged
slk unregistered	posted 05-25- 08:51 PM CUUL!!! Psi IP: Logged
Spanky the Mad Dog Pilot	posted 05-26- 06:22 AM Spanky here... I'm still working on my modeling skills. Thats why. I don't want to do a half assed job. I'm getting practice with other objects. IP: Logged

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