posted 04-26- 10:17 AM               

Nowhere!

And I could get off on a major rant about what they say about SDOE but Ill let it go. (For now)

One of the reasons for the major computer upgrade I just went through was for B17II and here they go and talk that nonsense.
Grrrr!

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(Kill'em All, Sort'em out Later )
-=BAB=- Gunner

posted 04-26- 10:27 AM               

Tell me, how is the online play in SDOE these days with all the new add-ons?

posted 04-26- 11:22 AM               

That means you have to keep adding stuff. Who's gonna add it? Hopefully Microprose or or other third party will put out the "RAF Pack" or the "Medium Bomber Pack," but if they don't? Pretty bleak if there's no player contribution capability.

posted 04-26- 11:32 AM               

I wonder if Micropose will charge $$ for the extra planepacks you mentioned. That would suck large!

Graphics are great but, variety is a very important factor.

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(Kill'em All, Sort'em out Later )
-=BAB=- Gunner

posted 04-26- 11:36 AM               

Where we seem to differ is to where we would want the add-ons to come from. Frankly, I feel that Microsoft has done a better job with the "open" portion of their sim. There may be a bazillion other places they fell sort on, but at least you can fly online without having to have the same exact equipment.

posted 04-26- 11:43 AM               

Well said Jerry!

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(Kill'em All, Sort'em out Later )
-=BAB=- Gunner

posted 04-26- 11:47 AM               

Touche'

But please ask me this same question in six months. I do remember waiting for another WWII sim for about a year and a half after it was promised to be on the shelves....Now what was it's name again?

posted 04-26- 12:01 PM               

Pops. we all see your viewpoint and it is very valid.

The problem we see is.

What if they never put out ANY add ons or not enough?

What if they do and they do it wrong? what if the sim out of the box is flawed?

And please don't insult me with any talk of "they know what they are doing". Please reserve that opinion until release.

Let me ask you this. When do you get a better product?

When you pay someone to make somthing?

OR

When someone makes somthing out of passion?

In my opinion its when its out of passion. Maybe thats not your opinion

What i'm REALLY liking is Oleg Maddox's ( from Maddox games making IL'2) approach.

After some talk on the Dogfighter forum he has stated that what could happen to get more planes in the game AND perserve balence and keep user like you happy that worry about substandard releases.

IS

We could make the 3d model and cockpit and submit it to them. and then THEY do the DM and FM and finish the planes off. and release them.

Now that sounds like a grand plan to me.
They already intended to do add ons of planes but this will save them time and money to do more while giving the community a hand in the work so they can be more of a part of their sim.

I extract from Oleg's responce to suggestions (such as changing one of the release flyable planes from comments from the community) that he will also take comments on flight models into account and use ANY info we can give him to get it right.

Lets just say i'm more excited about IL-2 then I ever have been over B17-2

posted 04-26- 12:13 PM               

I think it is pretty simple. If the game doesn't continue to hold my interest, I'm gone. If, it takes add-ons to continue to have immersion and they don't come out with them, I move on. B-17II has a lot of potential. Obviously they have to prove it or people will walk.

Oleg's venture looks very interesting as well as a couple of others. If the publishers don't screw the pooch, we should have several good choices as to where to spend our money soon.

posted 04-26- 12:23 PM               

yes it does take both. Hopefully both IL-2, B17-2 and ww2 online will do what they want to and we will be flooded with good ww2 games.

Danw. Good point. But they still want add ons. Just cause they don't fly online doesn't mean they don't use add ons.

posted 04-26- 12:27 PM               

SDOE was crap when released.. a pretty little sim, fairly realistic.. but once you'd played it, that was it.. over and done with, take it off the HD and forget about it till one day you get bored and put it back.. well, thats exactly what I did. Only.... One day I'm just surfing for and addons and found Lectors great site, from there I found this place, and I have to say, I've complained with the best of them at times about user addons not being right, or not being put right, but! Look at what we have now and what we can do now, compaired to the boxed release! We can have aircraft from any time period, ppl are working on Star Wars addons for one guys Son, I can build completely new terrains, wether they be realistic or (maybe comming soon) Fantasy with large mountains and tight canyons to battle through, I and others have added ships that really kick butt.. OK, you know about SDOE, anything is possible and that is whats keeping the sim going this long after release, when most other sims would have fossilised by now.

Now we have B17II, intended without user addond capability, Lets look at some top games that were the same as this, but came with some addon packs.. HalfLife.. Said to have been the Best "Doom" type game ever.. it's fading badly now though isn't it.. Quake, Quak2, Quake Areana.. yes you could get addond pack for more than the price of the game itself, and they injected maybe another 6 months into the shelf lifes.. but they are pretty much done with now..

I honestly do believe Pops (this isn't from an SDOE Fanatic but a gamer) that unless B17II allows user addons, it's life expectancy will be maybe 1 year, at best 18 months. If you are lucky there will be 1 hear that 1 addon pack, that might bring an extra 3 planes per nation with missions.

I think you will find that SDOE will out last B17II under it current policy, and I'd hate to see that for any game, such a short span of life for so much work.

This game keeps on growing, you must admit that, you must also conceed that even with the bugs along the way, SDOE is now much much better than in the beginning, and hey, we're not professional 3D artists, programers and designers, but what has been produced in maney cases is better than they did.

I honestly believe that with no user addons, and game will have 1 addon pack if they have a mind to do any at all, then after that it's left because it's not a money winner. B17II going this way means it will have a short life, and die a rather sad death

posted 04-26- 12:48 PM               

I do think B17 II will have a stong leg up seeing as they are taking the extra time but to some folks who want to not only play but create it won't be as dear to them as SDOE. It all comes down to the indevidual and what they want out of a sim.

On addons. I personally don't see the addons for EAW which was Microproses last WWII cash cow and isn't Wayward off to make playstaion 2 games after they finish B17-2?

posted 04-26- 12:57 PM               

I quite honestly can't see my HD without "either" of these sims on it (eventually) ...

They both bring entirely different things to the table ... and I just don't see myself being so "sucked-in' that I could not have "two" loves ...

FSSDOE survives ... "because" of the divirsity and community involvment ... B17-II will/should survive through it's historical online offerings and fanatical attention to details ...

As the poor sot that got hammered in the L.A. riots said... "Can't we all just get along?"

posted 04-26- 01:21 PM               

pops "They designed their two products to allow you to fly online without having to have the same stuff installed"

are you saying thats a good thing? We can fly online without having the same stuff installed. You just can't use it.

Would you rather there was no mismatch checking routine? then people would be flying different versions of planes and there COULD be cheating galore. It woudl be stupid to take that out of the sim.

posted 04-26- 01:41 PM               

I guess it could, but I think these two sims are heading in different directions. I believe that if B-17II can put a reasonable amount of planes in the air, with little warp or lag, it will have a very long life for the online crowd. Here is why I feel that way.

I think B-17II will have a good Flight Model, Damage Model and Systems Model. All present evidence at least points this way. Now if all of this can be crammed though our wires with reasonable playability, I think that the human "Why in the F**K did he do that!" element will give this sim great legs. The map is going to be quite large. And there is going to be a hell of a lot of things to do for the bomber pilots.

Things that could be detrimental might be the lack of human fighter jocks. I hope that B-17II has the balance to keep both the Axis and the Allies interested. The other thing I wish it would have out of the box would be a mission editor. That would seal it in my book.

SDOE seemingly, on the other hand has gone more so in the offline direction. I agree with Siggi that the serious onliners have already left the building.

SDOE does have additional life in the capabilities of open plane. And the work done in this area is tremendous to say the least.

posted 04-26- 01:49 PM               

At that point the plane pack itself ENFORCES the standard that the other sim requires the company to enforce. So the only question is: "Do you trust the guy who built/modified the model to make it right?" Note that if I come in here with a T-65 X-wing, it can ONLY be played with online if other guys agree to download it and the missions. If I modify MY X-wing to have 18 proton torpedos instead of the "realistic" 6, MY X-wing WON'T match the other 6 guys, and I won't be able to dork up their online play. Bottom line tho: in one game there IS an X-wing, and in the other game, you may never see it.

The "online buffoonery" in SDOE is a product more of low numbers and a bunch of new planes being released simultaneously than any major flaw in the concept. If you want to run a "historical" mission with 4 B-17s and 4 P-51s against 4 FW-190 and 4 Bf-109, all you have to do is build it, and hope 15 other guys want to play your mission. If you want 4 Corsairs and 4 SBDs to be ambushed by 4 Tonys and 4 Zekes, you better make sure you all have the right versions.

If you had 100 guys in the lobbies instead of 8, you'd always be able to find a mission. So how you gonna get those 100 guys? With the 8 planes that shipped with SDOE? Activision lost those guys for you a year ago. How you gonna get em back? With the new FM AND new planes to show it off.

CFS and EAW both have significant "player input" going on, and those two sims are still going strong. The idea that the players will just screw stuff up is bull, and the idea that ANY software company is going to keep its programmers working on "enhancements" for a sim that's already shipped in a genre that is apparently not that commercially successful any more is wishful thinking IMO.

posted 04-26- 01:54 PM               

Remember, I was talking about Flight Simulator. Whats there to cheat about. I can fly my King Air with a Piper panel and Cessna sounds. No one really cares. It is just fun to get up there and fly.

CFS is a different story and is not a serious online sim for "competitive war making."

We are using it for practice only and it is real nice knowing that our practice nights go off without any mis-matches regardless of the planes, panels, scenery, or sounds that we might have loaded. Our practice can go to shit for other reasons, but mis-matches isn't one of them.

Do you think that there will not be any cheating in SDOE? I assure you as soon as someone has figured out a way to cheat in this sim, it will be done. And when it is, it is a death sentance to "real and serious" competition. That is the gamble one takes with opening things up. You get some things at the price of others.

posted 04-26- 02:04 PM               

"If you want to run a "historical" mission with 4 B-17s and 4 P-51s against 4 FW-190 and 4 Bf-109, all you have to do is build it, and hope 15 other guys want to play your mission."

Sorry, I don't think this would be very playable online in SDOE. Four bombers and 12 other planes for a total of 16 online with 16 human players?

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I'm not saying that the sim could not allow for this. I'm saying that tha lag and warp would likely make this a not too pleasent experience.

posted 04-26- 02:38 PM               

Wayward is not out to make playstation games after B-17II. That was a Hasbro desire. Hasbro, who owns MicroProse has shown some signs of going that direction. Wayward, independant of Hasbro, has aligned themselves with Hasbro/MicroProse on this specific simulation. Since they are an independant developer they are free to use other publishers for their other projects. *

If B-17II shows great succes, I would think that Wayward would be in a pretty good light to be pretty selective of publishers for their next one.

*Assuming that there are no long term commitments to anyone at this time.

posted 04-26- 03:08 PM            

Neither game was shipped to allow any type of user mods like in the SDOE Open Plane engine...yet, look at them now. Both are being hacked to death.

If B17II is worth a hoot, you can bet the same thing will happen.

posted 04-26- 03:10 PM               

Rage is pleased to announce that it has acquired Wayward Design Ltd (“Wayward”), a Bristol based games developer, for an initial consideration of £2.06 million, to be satisfied by the issue of 2,888,890 Rage ordinary shares. A further £250,000 will be payable subject to the achievement by Wayward in the three years ended 30 June 2003 of certain performance criteria. The deferred consideration will be satisfied by the issue of Rage ordinary shares.

Wayward was established in 1997. Its first title, which is currently nearing completion, is a flight simulation game called B17: Flying Fortress – the Mighty Eighth. Wayward’s staff have considerable experience of working in the games development business and have between them achieved a number of hit titles, including the number one hit game, G Police.

Wayward made a profit before taxation of £65,741 in its last audited financial year to 30 June 1998. As at 30 June 1998, Wayward had net assets of £65,741.

Following the acquisition, Wayward’s development teams will work on future games concepts for PlayStation 2 and other new gaming platforms, complementing the work of Rage’s development studios in Liverpool, Birmingham, Newcastle, Warrington and Sheffield.

posted 04-26- 03:32 PM               

pops and those at Bombs Away were sorely disappointed with SDOE because when it was being promoted (I read Flight Journal magazine for 2 years before SDOE came out and remember the ads there for it--I was drooling and I didn't even have a computer). They, like I, were very anxious to get our hands on some flyable bombers- which at the time was kind of a new concept.

So-- whether or not B-17II has add-ons- user-made or publisher-made- these guys will be quite content for a while if it comes out as advertised. Considering the care that Wayward is promoting to make it very immersive for the bomber pilot-- if they deliver- it will last a while...even if there are no new planes and the campaigns get old-- if there is a mission-making capability that will extend life as well...just like the work some great guys here (the best example being the WWI crew)is drawing new blood in-- if you don't agree- then maybe you haven't taken nuum's Bristol or Sv's Albatross or Zoy and Raider's Fokker up for a spin.

I eagerly await B-17II (although I don't look forward to having to upgrade to it...ohh well!)-- but since I'm easy to please and still have a love for SDOE...I am still here where other finer men have left. I look forward to one day maybe flying with pops and Enthor and others again. Online here has been somewhat bittersweet- but I stil enjoy being able to try out a plane that a year ago I would've never thought would be in the game.

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Brought to you by the campaign for a better Dauntless!

posted 04-26- 03:41 PM               

On the other hand due to the aquisition and Microprose's past performance I don't see there being an addon anytime soon unless they make an open archatecture.

posted 04-26- 03:44 PM               

I'm over my disappoinment. SDOE is off and I work extra hard not to be discourteous towards the sim or its followers. We got raided today and I scrambled. I have debated some items and conceded some others. Plus it's nice just to drop by and read some old faces. Like yours.

posted 04-26- 03:53 PM               

SDOE is the best sim I have ever flown, and at age 56, I have flown them all. B-17II will come out eventually and I hope that will be the best sim I have ever flown, but for now I fly the diverse skys of SDOE. With so many planes how can one get bored? I know it is an online mess at the moment but with all the talent here I am sure someone will come up with a solution.

posted 04-26- 04:09 PM               

It seems that most people ignore the #1 reason for an open sim, NOT user add ons, but 3rd party commercial add-ons! If SDOE did a bunch better sales wise, there would have been many companies working to create great add-ons. This would eliminate the mis-matches, etc. (I still think our planes are better if not finished or completely professional yet)

SDOE should have been a great sim market wise. It is a very sad story to me. It is still my favorite sim, and I doubt B17 II will change that. I will fly B17 II for fun of course, much like I play "mid-town madness" and "need for speed". I am not saying B17 II won't be a hard core realistic sim - I think it will! I just don't think the focus will be on the simulaiton aspect - it will be more on the on-line game play like pops said. (this is fun too, I can't wait)

If you think B17II will be the best sim IN EVERY ASPECT then you are going to be pissed when it is released. No sim can focus on every aspect - by definition!

I think B17 II will kick ass, but for different reasons. This is why I think B17 II SHOULD NOT be an open sim - it is contrary to its focus IMO.

I think it is ignorant to believe that SDOE's open architecture was its downfall. It is clearly why we are here today.

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-Sv =FC=

WWI in SDOE!

posted 04-26- 06:33 PM               

Debates are never a bad thing when tempers don't flare and open minds attend And there's always things to learn, and different points of views to consider.. don't know if all this helped any, but I hope so

posted 04-26- 07:17 PM               

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posted 04-26- 09:27 PM               

I personally think it is. One bomber only and no user add ons is short sighted.

I'm personally not into games that are short sighted.

I will still play it but I can't see it being around as long as some of the other games that are built with an open system.

IF people start hacking it and it works out then it will last longer. And that would be cool. BUT why can't the company just help the users out and give them the specs to hack? What is so wrong about letting the users make planes and paint them and change and add sounds?

Like EAW. people have figured out to paint the planes, change the 3d models, change the terrain.

Why couldn't the company just give them the little bit of info they needed so they could have done this from the beggining?

posted 04-26- 09:33 PM               

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Brought to you by the campaign for a better Dauntless!