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Author
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Topic: Forests in SDOE anyone?
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Nat
Pilot
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posted 04-25- 08:37 PM
   
OK, after reading a topic in the WW1 Forum, I kinda thought it time to put forests into SDOE, well, there's a pic below.. not quiet a forest yet... but it soon will be.. give me about 2 mins.. (big pic)
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JV~44 "Naturlich"
 If you can't beat em.... out run em!
there again, you could go buy a shiny new F4U, and kick some butt!!!
<b>Nats FS-SDOE Site</b>
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Sv
Pilot
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posted 04-25- 08:47 PM
16 FPS?  Cool! How can this be added to a terrain, file references? ------------------
-Sv =FC=
WWI in SDOE!
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Sv
Pilot
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posted 04-25- 08:51 PM
If we want to get this:  We need trees that blend in with the terrain colors better, and terrain that follows the vegitation texture a bit, look how clever it was done here, an art to be sure. But OpenPlane can take this to the next step  -Sv IP: Logged |
Nat
Pilot
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posted 04-25- 09:01 PM
oh don't worry about my 16FPS, in external view in a large mission, thats nothing unusual for my machine, I've just created a larger woodland to see how that affects, but in cockpit view I had great FPS when taking that pic.I agree about that screen shot there SV.. wicked.. very nice, and it is fully possible within SDOE, it's alot of work to do it because we got given such a bland terrain to work with, but most of it is super tif work, the trees aren't a problem I don't think, the vegitation can easily be added. IP: Logged |
Nat
Pilot
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posted 04-25- 09:12 PM
ok, I've just tested with about treble the amount of trees, and found out.. well, that making a forest this way won't be much good till we're all using AMD1ghz CPU's and atleast Voodoo 5 6000's .. yes, it a FR killer, only when they are in view.. but thats bad enough, went from 45fps with full detail, heavy cloud cover and lots of a/c, to about 7fps once the trees come into view, there might be a way round this, I'm not sure, maybe it's down to every tree using the same tif file ::shrug:: what I also noticed is even with the terrain cached... the Aircraft take longer to load.. quiet long actually.. strange, thought if anything the terrain itself would take longer.~Nat~ IP: Logged |
DanW
Pilot
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posted 04-25- 09:19 PM
can you collide into the trees? it could be that the collision detection on each tree is killing your fps. i remember bryan russell said that his large terrain was unplayable because of the massive collision detection in the sim.plus, those trees are a lot of polys..every little bit adds up. IP: Logged |
Sv
Pilot
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posted 04-25- 09:21 PM
Also I don't think a full forest is needed, just trees like in that RB pic... this will not hurt FPS too bad...-Sv IP: Logged |
Nat
Pilot
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posted 04-25- 09:36 PM
the trees have very few poly indeed though, they are flat meshes with 1 angle in the centre, but maybe it is the collide, I'll check that one out.SV, I'd love trees like that, the only problem will be the placing of them, I'll have to look more at this one, see about editing the shape of the mesh and then the texture, but if it looses it's mapping I can't do that part IP: Logged |
slk
unregistered
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posted 04-25- 09:37 PM
Nat, SV,Love the trees, but like nat said till were all using the 1Gig with the Voodoo 9,000,000B
were all screwen the pooch.
Nat read your response to Yamoto, if YOU need
help with texture, well I'm with the pooch again! ANYONE GOOD WITH TEXTURE IMPORT.(over}
Need help to finish the Yamoto, Please...
Psi IP: Logged |
Nat
Pilot
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posted 04-25- 09:44 PM
PSi, I'm very good at texturing I just can't map thats all... sound strange? LOL, I can make an exhisting tif look wicked, but I can't take a tif and apply it to the mesh IP: Logged |
Bryan Russell
Pilot
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posted 04-25- 09:58 PM
Have you thought about a single double sided poly with billboarding to get the effect? It might need a second poly for the top down view. If it halves the number of polys down then it would double the number of trees.Is this what you are doing anyway? IP: Logged |
Nat
Pilot
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posted 04-25- 10:07 PM
Bryan, I made it even simpler than that.. lol sorry, it was just too easy as an experiment it how it would look, I simply opend the Tree.sm with OPS, copied the tree, pasted it back in, and positioned it.. after doing a few, I copied the lot, and pasted them again to speed up the process. So as yet, I've made no chages to the tree itself, it's billboard, but seems to have very very few polys as there's virtually no form to the mesh, it's simply done with texture effectsIP: Logged |
Sv
Pilot
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posted 04-26- 07:43 AM
NAT! That is the problem then... is the mesh a square? If so, then this is using alpha textures, and that KILLS frame rate.Or do you just mean the mesh is rather simple? -Sv IP: Logged |
Whirlwind
Pilot
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posted 04-26- 10:05 AM
A FPS friendly way to do trees would be to do a raised polygon (like a box) and put a few trees around it to blend it in. We also would need new tree models.IP: Logged |
Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 04-26- 10:43 AM
Spanky here.. SV your right with the whole alpha thing but how do we get around that? its ether that or square trees? Here is what i propose. what about a 2 poly tree? 2 overlapping like the sperators in the bottom of a case of beer. make them both trianges so it will be 2 triagles. and a triagle will work fine for a needle bearing tree (sorry can remember the name, and i should know since my life is trees. i can tell ya one thing they are softwood. AND the wood can be harder then hardwood but still be called soft. LOL Anyways I HATE the billboard effect. I know it saves a poly or2 but man is it ever ugly. The ocassional one is ok but i couldn't stand a forest like that.
Please take a look at teh trees in gunship. They are kick ass.
Do you guys wnat a pic of the trees and forests in that?
you guys would kill for that terrain in this sim.
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Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 04-26- 11:48 AM
Spanky here.. HEHE back. I couldn't resist K here they are. 
the city is fine on my computer as long as i don't have twilight on. Imagine these trees and ground objects in SDOE? and the citys. They are stilll small but MUCH bigger then SDOEs. [This message has been edited by Spanky the Mad Dog (edited 04-28-2000).] IP: Logged |
Ronin
Pilot
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posted 04-26- 11:54 AM
Spanky-By billboard effect I think he means the Open Plane setting where the poly turns to always face the viewpoint. Thats the technique used in the RB3D pic. Your idea of two interlocking upright polys is a good one. This is kinda like the folding paper Christmas trees we used to make as kids. This is the approach used in Air Warrior III. It works but you are always aware of a visible edge view of one of the polys. They also dissappear when viewed from directly above. My favorite suggestion is Byran's. Use one upright poly the shape of the tree with no alpha that is set to use Open Plane billboard. Then have a second poly on the ground to simulate tree diameter and any desired shadow effect. Ronin IP: Logged |
Nat
Pilot
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posted 04-26- 11:55 AM
er.... help.. LOL is Alpha textures are ones that have lots or transparancy, then yes, thats how the trees are done, the meshes aren't exactly square, but they have next to no polys, looking at the mesh in Max there's nothing that could be taken out fro, it at all, but the tree tif has transparant parts all over it to make it look the right shape, I don't really see a way around this other than WW's suggestion of a largish box textured.. but I don't think thats what we really want to do.... this could be an arkward oone, and one that we will have to compromise on... What I was thinking of doing was making maybe 4 different types of Tree/vegitation, and making a similar sm to in that pic, only instead of using the same tree, we would have small groups of different trees, it wont be perfect, but better... but here again.. I don't know how to put transparencies on Tif's lol~Nat~ IP: Logged |
Nat
Pilot
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posted 04-26- 12:04 PM
OK, tell me this.. I've now seen pics from 2 different sims where there are loads of vegitation, and look great... how in the hell are they doing that while making it still playable and we can't. The Forests I can make kill the game, it takes ages to load and when it's finaly done.. FR drops throug the floor when you can see the trees.. how is it done to keep the FR up??
Obviously in Spanky's pics they are using the same ethod as in SDOE, billboard meshes with alpha tifs! Whats wrong with SDOE.... is it because the trees have damage properties? But we wnat damage properties so that the trees set on fire etc.IP: Logged |
Tailslide
Pilot
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posted 04-26- 12:16 PM
Or you could make them three polys and have them pyramid shaped. I don't mind the billboard effect I can't even see it unless I am right up close. Whirlwind's idea with the forest 'box' is pretty good too. Hmm.. placable ground object 'forests' that catch fire hehe. TS
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Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 04-26- 12:17 PM
Spanky here.. Yes ronin that is the billboard effect and i HATE IT. it sucks ass and is a cop out in my opinion. Nat NO those trees ARN'T using the billboard effect. THey stay nicely placed on the ground like they should and you can run into them and damage your heli.
and yes they do seem to be using Alpha to me.
I can tell you EXACTLY why they can do it in Gunship and other games and we can't in SDOE. PROGRAMMING. I'm sure you wanted to hear that eh? Thats all it boils down too. Its the same reason why all console games get better over time. Because the programmers get better. You can bitch about gunships FM all ya want and half of the rest of the game but you can't deny that the programmers made a good GRAPHICS engine. the rest of it is pretty low quality.
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Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 04-26- 12:20 PM
Spanky here.. I hate the way they always loook at you. I can see it all the time and it feels so fake. the trees in gunship have a couple horizontal polys running through so it looks think from above. Belive me they don't disapeer from above. IP: Logged |
bjorn
Pilot
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posted 04-26- 12:26 PM
Spanky, splitting hairs here, but rather software design decisions more than programming per se. SDOE obviously was designed with extensibility as one of its main focus' and more on physical behaviour than others. The effects of this is that you lose out in other fields. Some times it's possible to find a design that's blazingly fast, very easy to alter and extend, has a generic language for adding new stuff that wasn't thought on when first designing the software, and that is very stable and can be finished in a few weeks. Normally, however, you can only pick two from the list, maybe three if you're extremely lucky.
_
/Bjorn.IP: Logged |
Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 04-26- 12:33 PM
Spanky here... Ok Bjorn. I see what you mean. BUt you can't tell me that good programming can't help SDOE. and in the end allow more FPS and thus more objects and detail. WITHOUT having to buy new hardware. LIke i said look at consoles for good programing. They were limited to the hardware they had and couldn't lean on the next P3 to make the game run at a decent speed. I realize they work with a set peice of hardware that they can learn inside and out and all but thats not the only reason the games get better over the years. Not by a long shot. IP: Logged |
Nat
Pilot
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posted 04-26- 12:38 PM
OK, so what the real question is-What is the best way to work around this problem.. it's a simple fix and doesn't take long, but lets have some shouts for the best way to go about it. I am going to try creating new trees and making clumps of them together, some tall, some short, and different types, they will simply replace the tree1.sm, thereby being placed where the origonal tree was. WW and Tails idea sounds like a good one, but I'm not sure how that will look for large areas of trees, but woth trying. Give some shouts here for what you think is the best way of adding more vegitaion. IP: Logged |
bjorn
Pilot
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posted 04-26- 12:38 PM
Well, one reason consoles work fine is that they have extreme computing power, another is that they don't have Windows on then that eats up at least half of what's available. Wouldn't even surprise me if they have programming documentation that is mostly correct.
_
/Bjorn.IP: Logged |
Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 04-26- 01:25 PM
Spanky here... Yes dedicated circuits for gaming makes them better and documentation. YEs a windows stripped down for gaming could REALLY help PC gaming but we have to HOPE that microcrap will do that. I'm not holding my breath. IP: Logged |
Sv
Pilot
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posted 04-26- 01:26 PM
The trees in those pics do not look to use alpha textures. Also they do not billboard. They simply placed the flat trees in various directions - this looks good.But for non-forest farm land like the RB screen shot, I think billboarding would work quite well. I don't think a forest is great for aircraft anyway, but lots of trees in fields and in hedge-rows would look awesome! Also these other games may have more FPS room left over for trees if they have a less intensive physics model. I think the RB shot in SDOE would work fine FPS wise... just allot of creative art work... -Sv
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Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 04-26- 05:09 PM
Spanky here..
Nope i think we do need forests in a way. I read clostermans book and he was down LOW alot clipping trees.
Why do you say they don't use alpha effect? How do they get that leafy branch shape then? 50 polys?
I hate billboarding. ------------------------ Boycott billboarding in Games!!! IP: Logged |
Nat
Pilot
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posted 04-26- 06:20 PM
Do me a favor someone, I'm using Photoshop 5, I have edited the tree tiff to look different, but now it's no longer Alpha, how do I create or change this to an Alpha Tif?IP: Logged |
Sv
Pilot
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posted 04-26- 06:50 PM
Yeah Spanky, I take that back, they do look like alpha... Nat, Bring up the layer window, click on the "chanels" tab. Now add a new chanel - this will be the alpha chanel! Back = transparent, white = opaque. Grey = semi-transparent/take some color from the RGB. There are also poly flags for using an alpha chanel, and where the texture is defined in the SM file. BTW Nat, I have not gotton to the yamato... I have not got to anything! I have been working late and responding to lots of email I am not sure when I will get sokme time yet... -Sv IP: Logged |
Nat
Pilot
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posted 04-26- 06:56 PM
Thanks SV, I kinda figured you'd be snowed under, you do alot of work, and I doubt that the Yamato is a "quick fix" I really wish I knew how to put a map to it, I used a prob to mape the hull, but still don't know how to place it, don't worry, if you get to it it's a bonus, I can't do it myslef so it's released as is on my website, maube someone will fix the little bug in the gun DOF's and map it, maybe not, I just can't do it, and that annoys me.I'll go look into Adobe now with your advice above and see what I can do, I'm going to create several different types of Vegitation, and group them into 1 SM file, slightly spread out to cover an area and see how it looks and how the FR is. Right now though, I think the pic I first posted is better than what we have, so I'll be working fro there myself. I hope someone will try out other idea's, such as Tails thought on placeable groups of trees etc.. always worth trying anyway. Thanks SV ~Nat~ IP: Logged |
Bryan Russell
Pilot
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posted 04-26- 09:01 PM
Billboarding is fantastic for driving sims and such where the POV is always close to the ground. One little amusing anomoly in Viper racing with Billboarding is that if you use the helicopter view, or whatever, the one above the car, the trees and lampposts look like spectators when they all turn to watch the car drive past. BTW the clouds and smoke in SDOE are done with billboarding as well, they look better than the trees would becuase they probably have 6 DOF which means you never get to see the edge. I guess its hard to make a call on how good or bad it is for trees until it is implemented and tested. A one poly tree means three times as many trees as a three poly tree after all. Thats also todays tounge twister...
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Nat
Pilot
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posted 04-26- 09:24 PM
I'm getting some good resilts fro the tests I'm running, when I'm done I'll post the new SM and texture files for anybody that wants to add them, I've made a couple of different trees and tree tifs (thanks to SV for the "how to" guide) to make small clumps of bushes and trees, and being careful I'm not taking any real bad FR hits yet, I'm working on 20+ is OK, since I usually have low FR anyway, here's another screenshot of the latest test, adding 2 different types of trees.... although for the larger trees I might be better altering the LOD to make them visable sooner and little more realistic, ok, this isn't perfect, but it's better than we have, and if anyone ever decides to retexture they would look better I think
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Sv
Pilot
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posted 04-26- 09:35 PM
Looks good Nat, I like!Now you just need to alter the correct tile texture to add shade under the trees... Does it ever end? -Sv IP: Logged |
Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 04-26- 09:42 PM
Spanky here.. aw man you just ruined the clouds for me. That sucks big time. oh well i barly ever fly with them anyways. Great stuff nat. BTW can you make a pine tree? u might be able to make a decent one with a simple triangle poly and no alpha. now that would really be minimalistic. Also are you running any wacky lighting in that pic cause it looks kinda twilighty. AND lol how did ya get that great frame rate if you are normaly running around 20s?
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Nat
Pilot
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posted 04-26- 09:45 PM
well, actually thats not too hard when after so long of working on terrains you can tell by your position on the map what tile your flting over! LOL (it's true though)But true, it shhould be done, will be a little fidly, but not too hard
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Nat
Pilot
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posted 04-26- 09:55 PM
hhmmm.. funny you should ask about a pine tree.. yes I do have one made up actually.. lol and that FR.. I don't know where that came from! LOL thats pretty unusual for me, but then, I noticed I forgot to have my BIOS assign the Voodoo an IRQ, so I changed that (it should be assigned in BIOS) and I think maybe thats the end result IP: Logged |
Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 04-28- 07:45 AM
Spanky here...
  
See it is possible.
Trees by the hudreds AND a great damage model. What does it boil down too? 1. A higher minimum system requirement. AND IMO Better programming. You don't just get that many trees in a sim because your running a better computer. Some body here take the 2d billboarded trees and put, Oh.... I would say 1000 of them in a tightly packed area and fly over them. With your p3 700, 256meg, 32meg geforce ddr and tell me the FPS you get? Now throw in that kick ass damage model and great skin? Why don't it work in SDOE? Well I already told ya that didn't I? Sorry about the huge pics. I know the loading time is sucking so i pulled 3 of the gunship ones. IP: Logged |
Raider
Pilot
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posted 04-28- 08:18 AM
Spanky, What game are those screen shots from? Man, they are great. What detail on the planes. Wow.------------------
Raider 33rd~GS
Raiders Site
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