posted 04-05- 01:12 PM               

What a pathetic state of affairs.

It seems that the "aristocracy" of SDoE are either too selfish or apathetic to admit the need for a single authority that would govern SDoE online standards. Too many egoes involved, too many people afraid that they may lose what little power they have at this time.

Meanwhile the simple players get shafted, the newbies run screaming hysterically to the hills...screaming with laughter at the joke SDoE is becoming.

Yes, lots of excellent ideas, not a jot of realisation of those ideas.

Again, I state the need for a benevolent dictator and nominate Mk10. Hear my prediction, oh aristocrats...hold on to your brief power and witness your subjects deserting in droves. See new-comers leaving as fast as they enter. How much satisfaction can you get from creating all these glorious planes for an ever dwindling population of pilots? Talk about stitching yourselves up!

Mk10 is the kind of guy who would 'dictate' by commitee. Being a dictator doesn't mean ignoring suggestions from the community; I know he would do an excellent job with fairness, even-handedness and an open ear.

But you lot don't see even the need for it. And, when SDoE is finally nothing more than a bunch of builders sending their planes into a sterile vacuum, you'll moan and bitch about the lack of apreciation from online pilots. They'll all be flying elsewhere.

posted 04-05- 01:27 PM               

Who are the people that have power in the community?

I don't think people here will submit to any kind of authority since there is no way to enforce the rules.

posted 04-05- 01:39 PM               

Siggi. I think your idea could work. IF people listened to him.

BUT I think my idea for a self updateing site is better. WHY? cause it doesn't need anyone to baby sit it.

THe makers just upload the newest version on to the site and thats where everyone DLs from.

Nice and simple. Need to know if your up to date? Just check the page and look at the versions your using.

posted 04-05- 02:13 PM               

A central authority could lay out what is required, they could say how releases are going to work.

They could do a large number of things to smooth this whole process out.

But in the end it won't matter because you can not force anyone anywhere to do the things you want the way you want.

Case in point, there are more people working outside of OPPs than in OPPs. OPPs is the central clearing house for all of this.

MH announces this contest and is it now up to OPPs people to clean up the aftermath of the contest and spend the next 3 years fixing all the planes?

This may sound elitest but the only plane in the contest that I am aware of that is trying to comply to the OPPs standard is the Dauntless being done by the OPPs team. I know exactly the status of this plane I do not know the status of the other planes.

I know this opens up all kinds of people that will start slamming my comments, but you know what?

It is just a friggin game. It has great potential to be a fabulous sim but it will never achieve it's potential for various reasons. I will spare the details on this issue because my post would be far too long for anyone to read.

------------------
Kopper

Fortunae Nihil
(Nothing to Chance)
OPPs Making SDOE a Dangerous place.
One plane at a time.

posted 04-05- 02:15 PM               

Self-updating pages sound cool, if they could be made to work properly. Even they would benefit by the date being part of the file name of the listed airplanes.

Siggi...now I REALLY need your help...I've got to find some negatives quick, and burn'em...

posted 04-05- 02:37 PM               

That page is already in the making.

posted 04-05- 02:44 PM               

How much worse could things be if we just gave it a trial period of, say, three months? At worst, it would be a very interesting experiment. Give (I said GIVE, of our own free wills) Mk10 complete authority to create a system that addresses the probs. We can all make suggestions, but when he says "Right, I've listened, now this is how it's gonna be" we all shut up and do as he says, giving it a good solid chance, make or break.

We ain't got the balls to at least TRY it? The balls to try something innovative that may well prove to be a boon?

Read his posts, check out his ideas. The guy's got them coming out his ears, and they are sound as a pound. Just the lengths of his posts indicate his energy. THAT'S WHAT WE NEED HERE!!! Sound ideas and the energy that indicates commitment.

Lead a horse to water Zur? If this was the Sahara, and this lot were dying of thirst with an oasis over the dune, they'd be looking for a bus to take them to a bar downtown. Or something.

posted 04-05- 03:02 PM            

Yes, saying the Dauntless was the only aircraft to conform to OPP standard is elitist. First off, what does the OPP standard have to do with anything? Most planes work, why should OPP have to fix them? Second, the contest produced a heck of a lot more plans that OPP did. Hence, it was more productive. I am not slamming any member of OPP, but the contest and it's individual teams have done a lot more than OPP has done from a quantity stand point. True, the OPP did a lot of the preliminary and early work with OpenPlane, but its not the governing body or anything. I think a couple of the guys on Team Jug did OPP stuff for a while. But I dont see how OPP is even close to the be all end all solution for SDOE. Now I see where that gestOPPo thing came from.

posted 04-05- 03:13 PM               

Mk10 for Shogun.

Mk10, I'm sorry to lay this on you. Personally I believe all leaders should be elected this way, and dragged kicking and screaming to their thrones. As far as I'm concerned you are the ideal candidate. Your return was almost fateful as I had been thinking of you from the moment I suggested the idea of a "dictator".

posted 04-05- 03:40 PM               

------------------
Kopper

Fortunae Nihil
(Nothing to Chance)
OPPs Making SDOE a Dangerous place.
One plane at a time.

posted 04-05- 03:45 PM               

Well- I am speaking for the Dauntless team here--and if they don't agree with me then they can post here. I don't know much about the OPPs "standard"-- but I do know how hard a select few were working on the Dauntless. In all due respect-- the dauntless really wasn't an "OPPs" project because most of the OPPers were working on their own planes. Some of those guys did contribute-- but the overall project was left in the hands of Jaguar...has anyone even heard from Jaguar as of late?

Towards the end of the contest- Jag and I wrote each other every day about the progress (or lack thereof)- and it was a dark day when we realized it was unreleaseable for the contest. Of course- the fact that the contest deadline was later extended by at least a week tended to piss us off a bit as well- we probably could've gotten her closer to release if we had known. The fact of the matter is that PR's idea of the contest was genuinely remarkable- but in the end- the guidelines were completely disregarded-- the deadline changed, different versions were released of the same plane in the span of a few days- until things just got completely screwed up. I for one am glad the Dauntless didn't get involved with all of this. In the end- yes we have some truly great new planes to fly thanks to many talented people who we owe a great debt of gratitude- but the fact of the matter is that whoever was in charge of the fianl organization completely dropped the ball in the end-- when were we supposed to start voting? I still- two weeks after the fact- do not know which planes are eligible and which aren't. It has become a complete mess-- and I thank those who are trying to clear it up- but all this constant infighting is pathetic. What really is the standard anyway-- who decides?!!! Is anyone really qualified? OPPs is a mess- members come and go- and try this and try that- just like on the Forum...so to call them the GestOPPo...what purpose does this serve? I don't recall them stating that they were the know-all and be-all...but what's wrong with having one group (I think it would be too much to lay on one person--especially if something healthwise or personal was to come up)...be responsible for keeping things organized? Here I am after a long day teaching--and everything I do is regulated by a school board.

So- why not have a Forum Board- a group of elected "officials" who have been voted on by us to govern and regulate? Just my .02-- I'm going home!!

------------------

Brought to you by the campaign for a better Dauntless!

posted 04-05- 04:04 PM               

Well at least you are consistant, but I still believe a free market place yeilds the highest productivity and the highest standards. I don't think we needed to be treated like children and have to answer to some king. People will make what they want and the best will win.

If someone had created and maintained a perfect planepack, everyone would download and use it. There just is not enough resources now to get all of the creations together... mainly becuase the contest just finished!

Things will work out and we will in business agian in no time. It is all just a matter of competition. There could even be two planepacks maintained by seperate groups... who cares? If the community was not big enough to support both, one would gain favor. Everything works out in a free market place. Isn't this the whole point behind OpenPlane? If it were not, wouldn't Inertia manage and dictate the planepack??? Imagine that! ...submitting planes to MH etc. and hope he picks us for the team! Like a child's baseball team! How silly!

------------------
-Sv =FC=

WWI in SDOE!

posted 04-05- 04:09 PM               

HEY ... Why'd ya drag MY name into this?

I ain't even driving the bus ... hell, I can't even open the frick'n doors!

posted 04-05- 04:21 PM               

"Ernst Voss was the one who had gotten me more involved in this - I had heard of your work here but didn't know any of the details. Now, after a couple great emails from Tim and SV, I can readily commit simCombat's resources for you guys. You have something super started here, and it deserves attention! As the first commercial site other than Sierra's own site to pick up Red Baron, I can tell you all that there is massive interest in a decent WWI sim out there, and if you guys keep up your great work, it's sure to come to fruition!
I'll be the first to admit that I'm new to SDOE, but I plan on picking it up and installing some of the great WWI planes you guys have generated. I'd be interested in your help on how best to set up an SDOE section at simCombat, and I'll be looking for contributions and articles for the benefit of your entire community.

Just let me know how I can best be of help, and simCombat can be your venue to get the word out on your efforts.

Salute!

------------------
Jupes

John (Jupes) Hansen, Webmaster
simCombat.com - "Your #1 Resource for Combat Simulation!" http://www.simcombat.com/
jupes@simcombat.com"

posted 04-05- 04:30 PM               

TS

posted 04-05- 04:46 PM               

Maybe over-organization is a bad thing-- but I'd hate to work in a school that felt this way. We expect high standards from the companies we buy products from, for our government officials...OK I'm done rolling on the floor in laughter on that last one... from anything we hold to be important. So maybe having an agreed-upon way of dealing with the "standard" here (on and offline) would not be such a bad thing...as much as I have enjoyed reading Siggi's posts through this year-- I never thought I'd ever agree with him

------------------

Brought to you by the campaign for a better Dauntless!

posted 04-05- 04:58 PM               

Siggi, you're a pickle, and you may now win the award for "Nicest Shit Anyone's Ever Said About Me." But nope, not only is it a responsibility I could never accept, it is something that obviously couldn't happen.

Kopper, you've worked very hard on this sim and increasing people's enjoyment of it. You've also said numerous times over the last few days that nothing is ever going to work, and we're all going to hell. Two things:

1. I have been reading books on escorting bombers, and have almost figured out what is probably the best approach to it. It's not guaranteed, I'll probably never do it to your satisfaction, but I'm trying, and you're the only reason I'd ever bother with it in the first place.

2. One of the reasons I am trying to see if we can't start implementing this bomb rack/hardpoint thing is almost specifically for you also. I want you to be able to bomb with extreme prejudice, and often.

Sv, I am in the business world. Trying to tell me about the free market place would be like trying to explain Vishnu to a Hindu. But you see there's a difference between utilizing the results received by analyzing the natural flow of commerce and trade that a free market place creates, and simply throwing shit against a wall and seeing what sticks.

Trying to bring things together in a cohesive manner so everyone can enjoy a wonderful thing is neither treating people like children, nor subverting the spirit of free enterprise. You're jib is cut correctly though, and your heart is in the right place.

The main problem is that while I may not be willing at this point to paint a macabre picture like the 'ol Koppinator, I agree wholeheartedly with Tail that if we only have a few old salts on line at a time as it is, and the dominant paradygm is not subverted to some degree, we ain't gonna get enough fresh blood to even THINK about splitting into two seperate plane pack groups.

I don't know anyone who thinks the current plane pack regime, or the 5.3a itself blows. It's wonderful. I love-it I love-it I love-it. But it's just like last night with manock. Seems like a nice fella. Downloaded a fresh version of the "a" patch from God-knows-where, and read the readme to install it. Oops. Of course after a lot of sorting out and mucking about, we got it straightened out, and he got to have big-time fun with all of us. Look forward to flying with him again soon. It just would have been nice to spend more time actually flying, that's all.

And again...let's make sure there's no misunderstandings here...I don't care if it has the FM of a wet paper bag...I just want everyone to be able to fly it against each other online if we want to. There's no favorites in my book. Period. End of story. I think we've gotten a little carried away with anti-Totalitarian sentiment here.

Maybe I should have said, "Supreme Ruler in Wonderfulness and Sharing in Cooperation With All." Just didn't sound as cool though.

And Jerry, I envy you WWI guys. You are able to keep a lot cleaner house and decide things a lot more readily as you don't have a bunch of people getting in your stuff and messing it about. It's kind of like how I am able to find almost anything at will in my home office (now that I have one instead of the kitchen table), because my wife and daughters leave it alone. Most of the time. God Bless you.

I want it absolutely straight with everybody here that I have never advocated passing judgement on whether something is "good" or "bad." Of course people will decide what they like, and what they don't like. THAT is the TRUE essence of a free market system. I just want the stuff to work, that's all.

Mk10=225th=

posted 04-05- 05:03 PM               

Since I'm one of the guys working on the Dauntless (and the only one to post a progress report lately--whassupwitdat SBD guys?) I guess that makes me at least a "guest professor" at OPP, but I'll be darned if I can find an actual "OPP standard" over there. There are some guidelines for running tests, and some documentation for some of the planes, but nothing that would indicate that the FW-190 is NECESSARILY modeled any more "rigorously" than the P-47D. Also, since PP5.3 is now the online standard, and all the planes in PP5.3 were apparently worked on by OPP, the impression is that OPP MUST "sanction" the plane in order for it to become part of the online standard.

Is it all that hard to understand why that sort of attitude (if it in fact exists) would be resented? Could I PROVE that the "OPP way" is "more correct" than the method used by Laika to build his I-16? There's some dispute right now as to what documentation should govern the next version of the FW-190A4. Somewhere in there the OPP team will CHOOSE which numbers to believe. What makes an OPP choice more informed than a choice another builder might make?

Now, for my part, if there is an identifiable standard at OPP from which to construct the damage and flight models for "my" planes, I'll gladly build to that standard. I'd also be overjoyed if OPP would do the FM and DM of the Corsair for me (how bout by end of next week guys?) But unless the OPP guys want to be stuck with "fixing" EVERY new plane, the OPP standard needs to be more accessible, more prominently displayed, and a standard of documentation needs to be established.

I bet if you asked everyone who started a project for the contest WHERE they were supposed to look to find the "standardized" damage modeling and flight modeling procedures, you'd get some blank looks in return, and those who DID find what minimal standards exist would not all be able to figure out how to apply them, or necessarily agree that they accurately reflect the most "realistic" model for the particular aircraft being modeled.

Like I said, I'm more than happy to use the OPP standard. Just show me what it is.

The alternative is that the ONLY planes that meet "online standard" will HAVE to come from the OPP team. Sure, you get good airplanes that way, because they do fine work. But it's unfair to them to have to do ALL the planes, and it's unfair to the builders to just ASSUME that their planes aren't "online quality" simply because they haven't been blessed by OPP.

Not bein "anti-OPP" here, because I sorta ARE one, and it's the closest thing to "quality control" we've got. But I think the concept was supposed to be that it would become a repository of information for builders to work with to create "equivalently constructed" airplanes, and what it has evolved into is a group of designers and builders who determine what airplanes "meet the grade" for online play.

I'm not sure I'm willing to concede that OPP are the only guys who can do that, and if they WANT that responsibility, they need to be willing to analyze, test and tweak pretty much EVERY new plane that gets submitted. I'd definitely be willing to yield my "pride of authorship" in the Corsair to the OPP experts to bring it up to online standard, but I'd want some assurance that it would be done in a reasonable amount of time, and I'd sure like the option to do it myself.

posted 04-05- 05:32 PM               

I put up a post at the OPPs forum once saying here is what I think is required for documentation of any planes done. The general response back was "forget it. I am an artist not a writer, someone else can document it."

OPPs doesn't have to be the place to make the planes, it can't be. Everyone wants to work on their own thing. They don't want to work on someone else's project.

OPPs can be just the administrative body of changes: keeping track of what projects are going on, getting the FM boys primed for the next plane down the pipe, the skins guys ready, 3D guys working, DM guys doing their thing etc. Then OPPs would just coordinate it and package for release in a Plane pack. However, try to get anyone to agree on what the standard should be????

We have been trying to do these things for over a year now and it is next to impossible and if everyone doesn't cooperate forget it. It will not happen.

People are saying we need a central administration, fine? Who?

We need to set standards, good? Who and what will be the standards?

We need to set up a release system? OK, we refined one with PP5.3 & 5.3a still needs work.

You want to go ahead and organize this go ahead. We will disband OPPs, stop all work FMs, DMs, PP's etc and someone else can try.

I don't mind. In the end no matter what you set up it will still be the same as the vision of OPPs with a different name and no doubt the same people running it.

Siggi, DanW, MK10 or Whirlwind do you guys want to run OPPs or it's mutation go for it. You may have the title of Project Coordinator (PC) and do it. Believe me, I have no vested interest in this and anyone can try and be the PC if they want.

Here are the items to consider:

1. Someone to head up standards and define them
2. Someone to get all the FM people working together or get more FM guys
3. Someone to head up the researchers to get data for FM, DM, loadouts (you name it)
4. Someone to head up the Plane packs
Someone to head up the testers
5. Quality control to make sure all data and info is documented correctly
6. Online standard webmaster
7. Someone to track the source and merge the changes to the same sm files for the objects
8. Someone to track all the projects and the status of them, who is working on them and what assistance they will need.

These are some of the items to start, off the top of my head. Guess what? You need about 3+ people in each area to help out

------------------
Kopper

Fortunae Nihil
(Nothing to Chance)
OPPs Making SDOE a Dangerous place.
One plane at a time.

posted 04-05- 06:00 PM            

Look, I'm not trying to bash OPP or make it look bad. It really is a good idea. But comments like 'people got greedy' and 'OPP will wind up having to fix this' is total BS.
And saying that you 'must' have teams is BS too. Jedi and Lakia (forgive if spelled wrong) did most of their aircraft by themselves. They did a bang up job too.

The standard should be 'does it work'. If someone makes a F14, F86 or flying toiletbowl, then fine. People have a choice on whether or not they use it. Just because the aircraft isn't 100% accurate doesn't mean it should be slammed one bit. If its off by a few feet or doesnt stall right, why slam the guy(s) that made it. After all the hard work, just to get a rely like 'well, we have to fix this now' is a very bad thing to hear. No one should say that an aircraft or object isn't good enough for online play. If I had to submit any skins for accuracy approval, then I wouldn't be submitting any at all.

Actually, the standard should be like this:

Put a link on the main page. Call it NEWBIES HERE. Tell them about the game, patches and the play pack. Put up a little note about the 'online standard'. Something to the tune of what plane pack to use.

Then under it, do something similar to Razor747's work. List all the aircraft to submitted and indicate whether or not they are a alpha, beta or finished aircraft (ie, mposis 109 etc.)

If builders want to upload their aircraft the fighter squadron sight, then do something similar to avsim or flghtsim.com. There MUST be:

1. a picture of the aircraft
2. and a README FILE with FULL installation instructions on how to install.

Have a moderator or Siggi's dictator review the file when it is submitted to see if it meets the requirements for distribution on the sight. Assuming that it does, make it available for download.

posted 04-05- 06:08 PM               

SDOE online is dieing a slow death. That is because there is no organization or standards for releases.

Thats a fact.

posted 04-05- 06:14 PM               

No, I'm not commitee material. We'd all end up fighting and sending hundreds of e-mails to each other. Sod that malarkey.

posted 04-05- 06:22 PM            

It is interesting, is it not, that some people are convinced he reason for the death is the organization and the problems it brings, and others are swear it's the lack there of.

I wonder how many have actually stopped to think *why* there are problems, instead of just exploding.

Personally I think there are two main reasons:

One is obviously the mishandling of the latest PP patch, where people think they have the same PP and patch, but dont.

The other is the contest, and its lack of organization, which causes zillions of versions of the contest planes being out there at the same time (do you know which version you're voting for, for each plane?)

posted 04-05- 06:42 PM               

I used to fly online all the time. lately I don't theres just too many mismatches. Its insane. We had them calmed down a while back before 5.3. But with that error in the read me it just got all messed. THen the contest planes. Well that didn't help at all.

K people can argue either side for organization or the so called free market.

But does a clear set of guidlines for releasing a plane and a single place to post all those planes really hurt anything?

posted 04-05- 07:18 PM               

I know I pissed a few ppl off the other day, I wont honestly say I'm sorry, because it seems to have set something in motion here.. or atleast kinda speeded it up a little..

This is all a damn awkward subject, what is OPS Standard? And why should anyone conform to it? You can swing the argument either way about conforming or not, having a standard or not, and both sides are valid. I think though that in the end there will need to be some type of tighter control, in what form I have no clue, but just look at this whole thread, and sit back and think about it... what is it all about, I got lost after the first 3 or 4 posts.

I really don't know what to say as I don't know whats best, I disagree with both sides, and agree with both.. now if only we could put all the good bits together and bin the rest. Should people be restricted and forced to conform... NO, Never, Stalin is dead remember. Do we need to organise things better to give everyone here, and anyone straying across our websites some piece of mind that what they are getting is worth having (no disrespect) I think so.

So what is the answer guys, don't bother answering, because it's all posted above already.. which points to the fact that there isn't an answer really.

I'd be happy for the way things were to start with, guys releasing stuff here, we basicaly beta test it for them, and he fixes it to the best of his ability.

I'm also looking forward to the new type of PP that will check your setup for versions, and only update where needed.. that is such an awsome way to do it, I hope to Buddah that it works.

I think for the time being, this subject needs to be dropped completely, utterly.. not spoken about again for atleast 1 month, give things a chance to settle down and get sorted out now that the contest is over (don't start on this). I'm sure that sooner rather than later the contest PP will be sorted out and released, we'll vote and be done with and that'll be a big weight lifted. We need to see how things are going to progress now, and preassuring and pushing things just isn't going to help, you can tell that from all the posts in this thread.

Lets keep it quiet now guys, and get on with it, this is a game, and alot of fun if your flying or building, let it be that, and we'll pick up the organisation again soon when recent things are finished with.

posted 04-05- 08:44 PM               

And you know why I can say that and feel good about it? Because I think we've done something here. I honestly, from the bottom of my heart, believe we have created a great train of thought here.

It certainly isn't an original train of thought. Many people have obviously tried very hard to implement things along this very same line, and worked very hard to do so, in the past.

But it's a good train of thought. It has nothing to do with whether we personally think something is "pukey," or whether we think it is the aviation equivalent of the Holy Grail. We just want everyone to be able to play with it without getting a degree in computer science.

We want to be able to follow and adapt with the wonderful progress that changes things constantly. Follow incredible designers as they progress from "Point A" to "Point B." It's been done in the past with other games before...it can be done here, too.

I'd like to think that maybe we've made people think about how to build planes so they don't change a bunch of stuff as you delete and install them as jedi mentioned, how we might think about making them all the type that you simply unzip to the main Fighter Squadron directory, and how we might consider naming them with the date of issue included to alleviate confusion.

We've talked about how we might make missions, but still with incredible diversity and variable situations. Oh heck, one thing I don't want to give up on is checking into this bomber-with-hardpoints idea. (Note to self: Remember to check with Tail/Falck on B-17 hardpoint thing. Dry cleaning done at 5pm.)

We've talked about how it would be a good thing to keep files current on websites, and how it would benefit us all if names were not changed to protect the innocent.

I know that now, even more than ever before, I appreciate all the hard work people do for this game. I think that designers and creators might understand better now what online players go through, and I know that now more than ever before, if we can keep communicating like we have been here, honestly, sincerely, openly, and intelligently, we can someday, even someday soon, realize all our goals.

It's interesting that all of our goals seem to be somewhat similar.

If you went back in time, and told someone the U.S.S.R. would tear down the Berlin Wall themselves, you would soon find yourself in a fashionable white overcoat with kicky little straps for your sleeves.

If you told someone a few years ago a lot of hard drives would be 20GB, and a single game would take up 700MB on those 20-gig drives, they would have thought you just as crazy.

With all the problems, with all the mismatches, with all the ctd's, damage bugs, bomb bugs etc., it's still a pleasure flying with you all in the skies, and talking with you on this board.

Gentlemen, it's great to be back. I'll give you scribes a little rest on the heavy, intense postings for a while...it's you guys in the skies that better watch out! Hee-hee!

S!

posted 04-05- 09:00 PM               

(Said in Bill Murray voice): "Siggi, I want to PARTY with you, man."