posted 04-04- 02:18 PM               

I've been away for a while. Initially it was just to kind of relax for a bit, and then it was extended for a bit by a personal tragedy.

I had decided to relax for a bit after the initial release of PP5.3, followed quickly by 5.3a.

The FM fun of 5.3a was astounding. How wonderful to experience the new handling characteristics of the aircraft, and also the new aircraft.

After playing for a few days, no one seemed to have any new missions utilizing the new aircraft and the old aircraft in light of their now-different handling characteristics.

I am a man of limited brain power. I wish I had the time to learn to do even simple things like build decent missions. I barely have time to fly online, much less be able to totally enjoy myself by immersing myself more in the design aspects of this game including missions, Open Plane, skins, etc.

As a reaction to seeing no new matchups respective of the new plane pack, I did something I COULD do, by doing a lot of new mission matchups in fighter vs. fighter stuff, from 2-6 per side so I could have a LOT of people play if the night was "hot" so to speak, so people could start to get used to how to utilize the new aircraft and FM's against each other in combat.

Well, I'll admit in front of God, Country, and all of you, that after reading the 30 some-odd post thread about how crappy "these fighter vs. fighter missions" were, how totally bored they made everyone, how unrealistic they were, and that, by God, if I'm in the room of one of those missions, I'll just drop out I'm so darn disgusted, I got in a little snit.

And that's really my problem, no one elses. I can't even remember who said what, and I don't really care. It was silly of me to feel that way, because people were only expressing their opinions, which is their absolute right. Obviously, we could have had a "Mission Depot" so to speak, easily available with new missions designed by the best and the brightest minds with the new FM's, available for online play. Then somone could have simply said, "Hey, if you'd rather, let's try this bitchin' mission that was posted. It's really cool, and would be a nice change." Again, the snit part was my fault, I wasn't acting like a grown-up. But here's what it really made crystalline clear to me:

We have so many goddamn cooks in the kitchen, we're serving up hot, steaming bowls of solid salt. Here's the further problem: They're the best cooks in the world that I know of.

All we've got here folks is a complete and utter lack of organization and direction. It could be that I'm just dumber than a doornail, or maybe I'm just not one of the chosen few who're "in the know," but I think I even see some really, really, smart people confused as hell.

I am absolutely amazed at the talent and the hard work put in by people in this community. I'm totally floored by the quality of work done by people here. However it is extremely disheartening that while all this hard work is going on, it is extremely difficult to utilize that hard work cohesively in online play. It is nearly impossible for someone new to all of this to even BEGIN to grasp.

Folks, I couldn't for the life of me begin to help someone new begin to fly SDOE online. It would take hours, days, maybe even longer to get them online, and current, whatever the hell that means these days.

What we need here is a RULING COUNCIL. A group of folks who clear airplanes, patches, FM packs, etc., before they're released to mental children like me. Again, I don't think I'm the only one, and I've seen some intelligent folks have a tad bit of frustration too.

This means one authority, and one authority only acts as the central release point for ANYTHING.

I don't mean to sound Draconian. I know that there are quite a few quality sites out there that are trying VERY HARD to be of help by furnishing the up-to-date stuff, and that it is a personal sacrifice of time and energy to do so.

But we need ONE, CENTRAL location for ALL stuff. And NOTHING should go on it until ABSOLUTELY cleared by a governing body. PERIOD. I thought fightersquadron.com was supposed to do this, but like someone mentioned in another thread, when they went there, it was all about PP5.2.

I'm not saying intelligent folks can't transfer stuff back and forth between themselves, and have duplicate installs on their HD so they can flip back and forth. For God's sake, I'm not making the Clarion Call for the end of creativity, or people enjoying this game however the hell they want to.

I just mean we need ONE ONLINE STANDARD. And we need one group, whether it be OPP people, or a new brain trust of folks, Kopper, Tail, Razer, or whoever wants to be "The Man," to decide just what that is. If they don't say it's online standard, it ain't. If they say it is, it is.

And we need ONE PLACE, AND ONE PLACE ONLY to get it. PERIOD.

FS Hangar has been pretty damn good to find the latest versions of zeros and F4's and stuff for me. Again, think of me as Mr. Average Joe. I pretty much know that if I go there and get a plane folks are flying with, it will probably cohabitate with what people are currently flying online.

But since we're so scattered, lots of folks go to lots of places to get what they think is the current standard.

And for all the people who have worked so hard trying to get all this straightened out before this diatribe, I want to say your work is VERY appreciated, and it is in the spirit of the energy you have put forth that I make this "Call to Consolidate Arms."

More than a few folks have tried to organize this. But as we began being flooded with new aircraft, new FM's, patches to new FM with incorrect readme (I'm not bitching, I couldn't do that shit if my life depended on it, just trying to explain the confusion, that's all...), seasonal settings, Nations, trying beta 1.5.1whatever, blah, blah, blah,...it has turned into a big ball of confusing spaghetti.

Oh, and of course even if everyone by some stroke of luck has all their stuff grooving with each other, we still have damage bugs and the CTD's that have plagued this game since I started playing it middle of last year or so.

Anyway, this is one of those posts I probably never should have made. But I honestly think that we'd get the most out of this sim in the shortest amount of time, allowing more time to fly online with ourselves, and new folks to boot, if we had one, central, governing body that all stuff had to clear through, that would be posted in one, and only one place.

I hate to sound like a recording of a droning old fart, but when I played Fighter's Anthology, Gregory Pierson of the 714th VFS changed .lib files sometimes as frequently as every two or three days. I was even dumber back then than I am now. Scary, huh?

When we would meet online, everyone would check the date of the lib file they were running. It would show up like the plane pack info does in the network screen in SDOE.

If someone didn't have the latest, they knew they needed to simply go to the 714th page, download the new lib, and unzip it to the right part of FA, and it would overwrite the old. BAM. Done. They were back in five minutes.

Greg changed shit constantly. And no matter how much he changed, or how frequently, an idiot like me could get current in a matter of minutes, and be back online flying and dying with their friends.

This is a lot more complicated than that because the constantly changing input is produced by an astounding amount of incredibly intelligent INDIVIDUALS, but we can learn by the example of standardization, and for once, honest-to-God-one-stop-shopping.

Oh, and this goes for missions, too. Obviously missions can be whatever they want to be, it'd just be nice to have a place to get tried and true, tested online missions featuring the latest FM matchups to download so people could host who didn't have them.

I guess after coming back for a while and reading some of the Forum, I realized the shots being fired lately are the direct result of a lot of frustration, hard work, personal sacrifice, and a lot of strong wills. This is to be expected from people intelligent enough to do this stuff, especially if it is not channeled correctly so folks can truly enjoy the fruits of their various labors of love.

I apologize for the length of this. I hope all who read this understand my incredible respect for all who work so hard to make this game better. I give permission to those who know me to refuse to acknowledge that fact. (LOL)

posted 04-04- 02:24 PM               

Sorry, it's called "Guys you can't keep doing this"...I've bumped it back to the top for your perusal.

posted 04-04- 02:28 PM               

I think we need to get back and have a set squad night to practice flying and just have fun..

posted 04-04- 02:38 PM               

I was able to fly online all last night with hardly a conflict since we were doing 5.3a missions only.

Some of the guys are working on a more friendly 'windows installer' version of the next plane pack so give them a little slack, it's not a paying job eh?

As a friend I can't help but notice your responses online and in the forum are different from your usual laid-back self. Very sorry to hear about your tragedy and sorry if I said anything to offend when you left last night.

TS

posted 04-04- 03:34 PM               

Tail: I never had any problems installing 5.3 or the "a" patch, 'cause I had buddies to ask about the 5.3 (heck, I think I got an .exe version), and then I kept hounding people about the "a" patch install instructions, 'cause they just didn't seem right. Spyder set me straight before I even got close to installing it, so for me at least, it wasn't too hard. Helping straighten out others time and time again for the next few nights was a different matter however.

And again, I appreciate like hell all the work people do without compensation. I just want to see it utilized well so all can see and appreciate the beauty of their work.

And I think more than anything, my demeanor on the post was caused by my stunned amazement at the slings and arrows flying around here while I've been gone. People shooting back and forth who have put a hell of a lot more into this game than I ever have.

And don't worry old chap, after all the help you've given me in the past (and hopefully in the future!), I'd have a hard time taking anything you'd ever say to me the wrong way, or be offended by anything you'd say. You're not that type of person.

Burning candles and performing small animal sacrifices until "The Lord of Standardization" saves our unworthy souls,

posted 04-04- 03:51 PM               

The purpose of OPPs was to have a common point for people doing Open Plane to share, learn and coordinate things.

It was suppose to be the clearing house to set standards, avoid duplication of effort, maintain release copies of source planes etc, coordinate object releases (planes, missions etc).

But what happens instead? People called us the GestOPPo. They said screw that, off they went and did their own thing. Then what happens? Lots of great new stuff but a dog's breakfast to sort out?

MK10 the process is in place, no one wants to use it is what the problem is. We don't need another solution, we need everyone to agree on how it should be done and stick with it.

------------------
Kopper

Fortunae Nihil
(Nothing to Chance)
OPPs Making SDOE a Dangerous place.
One plane at a time.

posted 04-04- 04:27 PM               

I personally was not aware, nor had I ever read anywhere that that was also one of OPP's duties.

Also Kopper, I've never heard anyone refer to OPP as the GestOPPo or anything like that, so it may have been a bad piece or two spoiling the whole pizza.

If we can determine specifically, and exactly, WHO anyone should send anything to, let's get it printed here. Recently, freshly, in a moving-forward type of manner.

And let's be specific: This should include any and all planes, patches, etc., etc. Who should get them, and what their e-mail address is. Specifically.

Then if people put stuff other places, well, they probably aren't hip that this is how we're doing it. I think if EVERYONE would say to the person, "Hey, what you've done is really cool...to help us all out, could you belay that for just a little bit and send it to at so it can become offical and be released through the pre-designated release point?," then after a while, everyone would start doing it.

I want to look past any misunderstandings of the past, both for the instigators of any past indescrections, and past any resentment caused by the receivers of any previous indescretions. It's time we all worked together to go forward, and stop looking back. Our wives might be gaining on us.

Let's get some posts going, and keep moving them up to the top. Start a new category called "Online Standard" with categories including "How to Submit New Shit" and stuff like that. We can call it whatever we want to, let's just get the word out, and the procedures in the hearts and minds of "Those Who Create."

I don't know if a lot of the new folks who have been designing stuff even know the procedures that should have been followed. Hell, we had people designing kick-butt stuff who weren't even in the contest. God but it's so hard to keep up with everything, it's even confusing for a lot of designers I'm sure.

So if there's been bad blood in the past, let's make it just that. In the past.

If it's OPP that should get ALL NEW STUFF, then let's start there. Let's figure out EXACTLY WHO in OPP should be sent everything. And if we see someone stray from that, let's kindly remind them, or inform them for the first time, how it should be done.

We can simply say, "Check the category 'Online Standard', and the sub-category 'How to Submit New Shit' for instructions on how to get that wonderful new invention out to the rest of us. If you do it this way, your sex life will improve, and you'll get that sports car you've always wanted. Go against on this, and we'll have Mk10 send you long, rambling letters every day for the rest of your life." That ought to get their attention.

Keep it going Kopper. You shed some light on something I didn't even know existed. If I had, I might have tried to help out by informing people for some time now.

So Who, Where, and possibly setting up a special section in the Forum just for Online Standard could be a start.

For now, I'll try and help out by steering anyone I see to OPP. And your mailbox. Hee-hee! Seriously, it seems as if one question has been answered. Let's get a further explanation of that answer, and keep going.

posted 04-04- 06:10 PM               

I think it's been a rough week round the board, and I kinda think that because of it, things will change for the better,, like all the threads seem to say above... just a little direction and organisation, and things here (in SDOE World) will really take off, I don't believe that we've yet seen the games of the ppls here full potential.

posted 04-04- 06:18 PM               

MK, I agree with you to a point:

Point 1) I will be damned if I'm going to roll over and let ONE fansite get all the traffic for SDOE. I've worked hard on BCATP, and frankly there are many times when I enjoy maintaining that little shack than I do playing the game.

Point 2) "Obviously, we could have had a "Mission Depot" so to speak, easily available with new missions designed by the best and the brightest minds with the new FM's, available for online play. " --> Go to the headquarters of the BCATP. You'll notice a lot of room on the shelves. keepinga@cadvision.com --> I'd love to post some missions you think are particularly good, no matter the author.

Point 3) I know pts 1 and 2 come across a tad harsh, but I do agree with you that a governing body is necessary. In short, Centralised decisions yes, centralised distribution no.

Werner

posted 04-04- 06:18 PM               

Unfortunately though, I have to agree with Kopper. Due to personalities and such it's impossible to get _everyone_ working together.

TS

posted 04-04- 06:36 PM               

We do have an online standard however. It's plane pack 5.3a.

If people insist on flying new planes online, I for the life of me can't see how this can happen without mismatches. It's rather harsh to suggest not flying any new planes online, but I don't see another solution until the new planes can be "cleared" and put into a plane pack that has been tested. I think having two installations of SDOE is brilliant have an "online" and an "offline" version. One with the online standard 5.3a and another for all the new planes. Then when the new planes are packed, add them to the online version.

What's compounding this, is the contest. We just have too many brand new planes to sort out all at once. Dang you PR! Look what you created. LOL

------------------

-< -< -< -<
Esox=FC=

posted 04-04- 07:34 PM               

rant on:
On missions and such, what constitutes a good mission? I've been pissed over my missions being labelled 'improper plane matchups' and 'too unbalanced' that sort of shit.
For me, flying online was for fun and I tried to create that in my missions, so screw you if it doesn't appear 'hardcore' enough. I don't need anyone telling me what a mission 'should' be like, we can only fly 4 bombers in most missions for christ sakes!
Realism my arse, let's get back to enjoying flying sdoe rather than bashing anyone that upsets the so called balance.
rant off:

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posted 04-04- 08:35 PM               

Tail: You bet OPP's been around for a while. Thank God. Again, I am constantly in awe at the scope and the quality of the work that has been done. As far as personalities...well...I guess I have also finally discovered that the SDOE world isn't a bunch of roses with a little card with lace-trimmed edges. But then again, what is? And heavens no, rushing things out is not the answer. Also, we've never had the threat of me writing long diatribes to people who don't play ball to use as punishment for non-compliance. (hee-hee!)

esox: Right. 5.3a is online standard. The only thing is that the way it was handled, nobody's fault really at all, it didn't work that smoothly during the transitional period. A lot of people got very frustrated, and we may have lost some new fliers along the way too.

Additionally, basically it's no big cheese if everyone doesn't have every airplane. It just means you can't fly certain missions. It would be nice if there were enough "real missions" around that were available so everyone could change a mission if someone doesn't have a particular plane. It's the various versions that cause the problems. "Yeah I've got the zero! Downloaded it five minutes ago! What the hell is the problem!?!"

Spyder: You poor, poor man. Not only have you taken abuse, you have to count me as a friend. Man, that's a double-whammy.

I think a lot of this problem can be solved by simple courtesy. If I go over to someone's house for dinner, and my own personal opinion is that the chicken is overcooked, I don't say, "Hey dude, this shit tastes like leather. Why don't you learn how to cook?" I say, "Hey dude, it was nice having us over for dinner. You'll have to come over to our house sometime." Then I have them over, and cook my chicken the way I like it cooked, and we try it my way.

And I'm not saying we have to start falling all over ourselves acting like a bunch of snuff-sniffing fops, but a little common courtesy around here isn't going to kill anyone.

Please don't think I'm a naive guy walking around with heavily-tinted glasses. I know people have tried to do things in the past. But it's going to take more than OPP folks. We're ALL going to have to try. We're only as good as our cooperation together.

If Kopper's having trouble with someone ragging him, let's all rag the guy together. (Unless he's right of course...then we'll cut Kopper's beer rations...) If someone's rushing Tail while he's trying to do something, let's all get together and un-rush him.

Let's learn the difference between offering opinions in a helpful manner, and cutting down hard work that people have done in a cruel, self-serving manner.

Christ, it's worth a try. Think about it. We're all we've got. For all this is worth, it's the best there is right now (for a bunch of reasons that we could all argue with), but when all is said and done, it's the best show in town.

posted 04-04- 08:42 PM            

I like the small team concept better because you get a more focused product. Team Jug was great. While JT was finishing the cockpit, I was painting and building (sorta ) rocket tubes, Zur was tweaking the flight model and bjron was doing his OPS magic. It worked very well and I do not think that we had any CTD complaints or anything like that. The only downside was just a little bit more time was needed to coordinate, and tons of email had to be passed. But in our case, the individualistic effort worked great. You did your part and provide constructive criticism about the other's work. All in all, it builds a solid product.

posted 04-04- 10:31 PM               

Re: plane mismatches, if you host a mission and everyone falls over each other jumping into the same squadron (including the host) it's usually a bad sign

posted 04-05- 01:08 AM               

If you want to see the basic philosophy behind OPPs check out our website at http://www.fshangar.com/area51/ and click on "What is OPPs".

For those who are too lazy to do I have included it at the bottom of this post.

The only plane actually done as an OPPs project has been the Spit IX. As I seem to recall there were few, if any problems with it when we rolled it out in Octoberish of 99. (I think, the memory fades with age!)

May people who belonged to OPPs did there own projects as well. Which was OK as long as we were aware of it so there were not 2 people doing the same plane. Given the amount of work to do a plane correctly it just seemed ludacrise to have several people working independently on the same plane at the same time.

The contest has created a ton of new planes. The question is how many have the correct FM? We do have a list of what data is required to do an FM correctly as well. For your convenance I will not post it here. How many have correct DM? How many have correct dimensions?

You can't stop someone from created new planes with inaccurate FM's, DM's etc. Hell, SDOE did it when they put out this sim. You can't stop them from flying them online if a bunch of guys have the same plane and want to try it out. Case in point, the first Zero.

Where you can stop it is by saying it is or is not part of the "online standard". Who is the authority for that? OPPs? MH? Anyone who puts together a plane pack?

The online standard at http://www.fightersquadron.com/standard.html says it's pp5.2?!!!??? This is the Official site for SDOE?

We have a wild beast and it needs to be tamed but if MH can't even keep the online standard page on his site up to date who can?

Then the next question is "What makes the grade for the online standard". Case in point the first ME 109 done was a Spit or FW in disguise. It looked like a 109 but flew like a Spit (I think). Then everyone wanted it for online play. I was really surprised when no one wanted to fly it after a couple of months because it didn't handle like a 109. So if someone does the plane (3D image) should he be required to do the FM and everything else?

I say no! I do not believe that any one person can put out a completely accurate plane. There is just too much work to do! It took 10 of us (on average) over 4 months to do the Spit IX. How long will it take one person to do a plane.

Enough for now. Enjoy the long post!

WHAT IS OPPs

OPPs stands for Open Plane Projects. OPPs is basically anything being done with SDOE’s Open Plane architecture.
OPPs was set up as a way to pool resources, share information and learn together how to use Open Plane. OPPs does not and will never discourage anyone from doing anything with Open Plane. What OPPs would like to do is coordinate what is going on, so there is not a duplication of effort.

For example to add a new plane in SDOE you have to be able to:

Create the 3D model

Do skin textures

Do the cockpit

Create the shadow’s

Do gun convergence

Create sounds

Do loadouts of guns, bombs, rockets, etc

Generate the LOD’s for it

Research all the data on the plane

Create a proper FM for it

Create realistic Damage Modeling

Document everything that was done to create the plane

Test it

Package and distribute

Maintain it after it is released for general use

No one person could do all of these well. Plus no one person could learn to do all of these well. People have specialties. Eg. Woodpanel does excellent cockpits and loves to do them so why spend time learning the other parts of Open plane if he doesn’t want to. Bjorn loves to break things and has developed ways to do gear damage. Some people specialize in research – which is critical to the FM because very specific data is required to create the proper physics model.

Since there was so little information and tools for Open Plane the idea was for everyone to learn by trial and error then pass on what they learned so there would not be any re-inventing of the wheel. OPPs would then create documentation of what they have learned for general distribution.

Some fabulous tools have been developed by various individuals as a result of the pooling of knowledge. Hippie has made great plugins for AC3D to use with Open Plane and Bryan Russell had produced the fabulous OPS.

------------------
Kopper

Fortunae Nihil
(Nothing to Chance)
OPPs Making SDOE a Dangerous place.
One plane at a time.

posted 04-05- 08:19 AM               

Frig I have to take off and pay my internet bill before i get cut off so i didn't read the whole thread yet.

I will say a couple things though.

You are totally right MK. But then people didn't want to be a part of OPP. and people didn't want the hanger to post their planes.

Everyone wanted to have their stuff on their own page.

We do need a governeing body and a clear set of rules. Like. Always pack your plane so you unpack to the media folder and it installs right. ALWAYS.

Little stuff like that will go along way.

We do need one page. Check out my thread about all this online crap. It would solve the WHOLE thing. But people don't seem to want to do it either. SDOE online is bullshit right now. I don't even fly. I get a couple of flights in and thats it. So instead I play sony or go take a nap. Much more enjoyable.

posted 04-05- 09:26 AM               

The hardest part of doing correct FM's is getting the data.

No one is saying that a person can't do a new plane that doesn't fly well. For a while people were spitting out the planes and expecting the FM team to fix them. Fat chance. They were trying to fix the original fighters that came with the sim never mind doing everyone elses planes as well.

If a new plane is going to be used online there has to be a set minimum standard of how the plane performs, looks, takes damage etc. plus documentation and data to back up how and why the plane was configured.

Frankly, who needs a Spit or FW in disguise? Having a hundred different planes that don't fly any differently from the others is a joke as far as I am concerned.

------------------
Kopper

Fortunae Nihil
(Nothing to Chance)
OPPs Making SDOE a Dangerous place.
One plane at a time.

posted 04-05- 09:39 AM               

------------------

posted 04-05- 10:19 AM               

That's what OPPs is suppose to be, surprise..

But again you can bring a horse to water....

------------------
Kopper

Fortunae Nihil
(Nothing to Chance)
OPPs Making SDOE a Dangerous place.
One plane at a time.

posted 04-05- 10:25 AM               

Yep for sure.

What about that set of rules idea? I think thats a decent IDea.

posted 04-05- 10:34 AM               

I love you guys! Did you check my post on what is OPPs? Let me paste a specific portion of it here:

Create the 3D model
Do skin textures
Do the cockpit
Create the shadow’s
Do gun convergence
Create sounds
Do loadouts of guns, bombs, rockets, etc
Generate the LOD’s for it
Research all the data on the plane
Create a proper FM for it
Create realistic Damage Modeling
Document everything that was done to create the plane
Test it
Package and distribute

Maintain it after it is released for general use.

Granted standards have to be set on this. Guess what I do have a set of those as well.

Great minds think alike. We in OPPs tried to do this a year ago because we could see the problems that would arise.

However, more people have chosen to be outside of OPPs than inside it.

------------------
Kopper

Fortunae Nihil
(Nothing to Chance)
OPPs Making SDOE a Dangerous place.
One plane at a time.

posted 04-05- 11:13 AM               

TS