posted 03-29- 06:32 PM               

We are basically left with a sim that has un-addressed bugs that shipped with the final release version. activision are legally obliged to bring it up to the standard they advertised it at, but because they see no profit or gain in that course of action they have decided to dump it in it's current state. We have a case therefore.

While this sim remains un-patched there is no hope for using it seriously online. It's fun, air-quake stylee, but the various bugs make it an untenable platform for serious squad play. This situation also does no service to the hard work done by third-parties who have waited in good faith for the patch promised by MH, who we now know has bigger fish to fry.

It was never his responsibility in the first case. activision are clearly responsible and they should be brought to book for their display of contemptuous arrogance.

posted 03-29- 08:37 PM            

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Interesting tidbits from the liscensing agreement that we all 'signed' before installed SDOE.

1. "ACTIVISION'S LIABILITY SHALL NOT EXCEED THE ACTUAL PRICE PAID FOR THE LICENSE TO USE THIS PROGRAM. SOME STATES/COUNTRIES DO NOT ALLOW LIMITATIONS ON HOW LONG AN IMPLIED WARRANTY LASTS AND/OR THE EXCLUSION OR LIMITAION OF INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, SO THE ABOVE LIMITAIONS AND/OR EXCLUSION OR LIMITAION OF LIABILITY MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU. THIS WARRANTY GIVES YOU SPECIFIC LEGAL RIGHTS, AND YOU MAY HAVE OTHER RIGHTS WHICH VARY FROM JURISDICTION TO JURISDICTION."

2. ". The Program is licensed, not sold, for your use. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Program and should not be construed as a sale of any rights in the Program."

Hmmmm. I admire your persistence bro, but I don't think a class action lawsuit would even make it to court. We don't even 'own' our copy of the game. I believe you would have to first show that you were frauded (is that a word?) and then prove that any damages were done. Remember when they took Ultima Online to court? I think they had to settle out of court eventually. I believe what kills any type of lawsuit is the Liscensing Agreement. Nowhere does it say that any type of product support is guaranteed. I don't think there is any Lemon Law on software.

Wow, this is interensting:

* Reverse engineer, derive source code, modify, decompile, or disassemble the Program, in whole or in part.

Damn, some of us are real guilty here!

This is even better:

* New Game Materials must not contain any illegal, obscene or defamatory materials, materials that infringe rights of privacy and publicity of third parties or (without appropriate irrevocable licenses granted specifically for that purpose) any trademarks, copyright-protected works or other properties of third parties.
* All New Game Materials must contain prominent identification at least in any on-line description and with reasonable duration on the opening screen: (a) the name and E-mail address of the New Game Materials' creator(s) and (b) the words "THIS MATERIAL IS NOT MADE OR SUPPORTED BY ACTIVISION."

I wonder if the swastikas that come on the game are OK, but if 'joe' makes a plane that offends someone, can he get in trouble?

Too add to this. OFFICIAL announcement by team Jug : "THIS MATERIAL IS NOT MADE OR SUPPORTED BY ACTIVISION." I'll update the Zip file ASAP. All paint schemes from www.paintaholics.com will be modified to show "Not Supported by Activision" for the aicraft nose art. It's not worth the risk

There, that should keep the blood sucking lawyers off of our back. Phew...that was close.

Lawyers have everything figured out...that's why I'm taking Computer Science.

posted 03-29- 09:43 PM               

When you say "shut-up and get-on with B17-2," do you mean "get-on with flying B17-2" or "get on with suing B17-2?"

posted 03-29- 10:12 PM            

[This message has been edited by WhiskeyBravo (edited 03-29-2000).]

posted 03-29- 11:04 PM               

I don't dislike you at all, I am just defending my position. Plus, it's fun to rag back at you. But I don't think I really deserve any extra credablity for my efforts, I do it because I like to. Many others contribute in their own way, by posting here, organzing contests, or even just flying. Clearly there is much good to be had from SDOE and OpenPlane.

Go ahead and trash the aspects that upset you, but expect a strong defence

posted 03-30- 07:30 AM               

And, that software licensing aggrement, it isn't worth the paper it was written on. You can't sell someone a car, for example, that you advertised as having power windows, power doorlocks, a CD player, and a airconditioning, and then when it's delieverd it has none of these things, but it has a piece of paper in the trunk that absolves you of what you advertised. It doesn't work that way.

However, the problem, besides just organizing something like this, is throwing the vauge language used on the box back at them as a "broken promise" I can hear the lawyers (the only real winners) arguing...Just what is "Ultra Realistic" your honor?

Plus, you would have the chance of being conter-sued for entering a frivolus lawsuit!

The best case scenario would probably be that they (Activision) would settle out of court, not wanting the bad press associated with this. What the settlement might be, I have no idea, but I don't think it would result in a "fixed" game. However it might send a message to other companies to tread lightly when making outlandish claims.

Having said all of that. I love SDOE! Even with all of it's warts. Don't get me wrong, I wish they had been removed, and I always remain hopefull someday, someone will fix them. But, if they never were fixed, I would only have gotten $2000.00 worth of enjoyment out of this game.

Still, I may be more easily satisfied then Siggi an others. And I respect your right to rant!

posted 03-30- 09:14 AM               

If you were to sue Activision, would you win? Probably not. They have much deeper pockets than you, I suspect. Would that be the only repercussion? No.

Everytime someone sues someone else, it either generates another line in a contract (the EULA in this case), or the company (or industry) sued changes their product line so this won't happen again (and not usually for the better). We all know flight sims are a niche market. So how do we not let a company ride roughshod over us? Purchase someone elses product and not theirs. This is the only real power any of us have in steering the course of the market, unless you start your own company. If you do that though you best be on the watch for people like yourself.

So, Should they fix it to what they advertised? Yes. Will they? No. See, Should be's seldom are.

------------------
Snickers
=FC=

posted 03-30- 09:27 AM               

It might be that a well worded consumer request letter sent under official letterhead might be an effective action, especially if signed off by each member of the community.

However, I think our biggest problem will be finding a promise that we can prove had actually been broken. Most of what we as a community find missing about the product are things we find as a result of comparing this sim to others, or based on expectations created by the press while SDOE was in production. If you look at what they promised, it was delivered more or less. High graphics, a floating point sim based on physics models, with online play, the ability to add planes and missions, and the servers to provide online play.

What we complain about are things we think are missing, not things hat they promised to be in there. They never promised that the game would CTD after user created mismatches occurred. They never said that the damage model online would survive the perils of packet loss. They never said that the FMs would be "exactly" the same as if you were in the real plane.

That said, I do think Activision dropped the ball. They have a great product that has great potential. They have a community of users producing add-ons and mods which could be used in company sanctioned patches and add-ons’ cd's which could be downloaded or ordered. They have deficiencies in the final product which could be addressed in patches.

MH has been great at giving of his time and energy for free, just as the community users have been as well. I would like to see Activision make the step of paying Parsoft for their work (as MH has said, they've never been paid at all yet). I would like to see Activision release the source code for the game, if they are no longer going to support the sim beyond having servers available for play.

How to achieve these goals. A lawsuit might not be out of the question. For Texas consumers, if it can be shown that Activision did intentionally mislead the public on the product, to the point of being deceptive trade practices, the company would face damages of up to 3 times the economic harm caused to the consumers. That cuts deeply into profits. If every member of the board were in such a suit, damages could equal $60,000+ (not giant money, but something nobody would willingly want to fork over). Or, if a contractual clause could be proven to exist where in the consumer did not get what was promised, you might get specific performance (forcing them to do as promised- unlikely in a product as opposed to a service).

However, consumer issues are often resolved faster and with more satisfaction when handled as a consumer complaint that could lead to litigation. This is best done by the power of the purse. If you really want to get Activision to look at fixing the game, or allowing others to fix it, we need to motivate them to do so. The best way to do that is via economics. They must either fear you will sue for lots of money, cause a mass ban on their products, or that you will bring money to them for fixing it.

I would suggest we stop and list what EXACTLY we want fixed. Then work on a letter of the love we had for Activision products before SDOE. What we thought we would get with SDOE. What we want them to do to fix SDOE. What we will do if they do not fix SDOE. What we will do if they fix SDOE.

posted 03-30- 10:38 AM               

Despite the "best intent" that this ahem ..."action" ...

I caution everyone who thinks this a good idea to pause and wonder if this "action" in someway might come back to harm/affect Michael Harrison.

Despite what any of you personally think of him. He HAS freely done/provided much unheralded support for FS and our community. I personally would feel horrible is Activision lashed out at MH and either pressured him legaly or worse yet ... revoked their permission to provide unsupported "beta" patches.

posted 03-30- 10:48 AM               

I CAN SEE NO GOOD COMING FROM THIS LINE OF THOUGHT. IT _IS_ FRIVILOUS (sp?)

BTW - Can the EULA be enforced? Yup it is every day. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves...
------------------
Snickers
=FC=

posted 03-30- 12:13 PM               

A letter like I'm suggesting should be tailored to specific set of actions Activision could undertake to correct or allow other to correct the sim. No cursing. No idle threats. No screaming. Rather, just a well worded letter of complaint and request for action. Written with more of a promise for good publicity, consumer relations, and continued support, than a threat of lawsuit abd bad publicity. Although the letter must clearly imply that such could be the end result of failure to respond to our request.

I've actually been toying with the language for such a letter in my head this morning.

posted 03-30- 03:00 PM            

The unfortunate fact is that Activision "owns" this game. You and I have basically NO RIGHTS in the usage of this software. That's the way closed source (read proprietary) software is, from Microsoft down to Joe Blow's shareware.

I hate this system. I loathe Microsoft. But until Open Source makes sense for games, we're basically screwed. The only way to get the game you want is to 1. make it yourself or 2. pay someone to make it for you.

There are in fact two fully Open Source flight sim projects in development currently: FlightGear and Sabre (might be more, but these I know about). Right now they're in the early stages and really lack any kind of good FM. But if someone with expertise in these areas would contribute to the community, we could really see something great come of it. And (are you listening Michael :-) I would love to see even the level of FM that exists in A10 Cuba opened to the community (as Id software did with DOOM2 and even the Quake engines -- I believe they've even released Quake 2 source to the community).

Anyway. Pressuring a corporation like Activision into fixing a bug will meet with the same amount of success as calling for them to release the source to the community. Zero.

Still tho, it astounds me how tightly these companies grasp onto their source code. Like Siggi said, as if the customer base didn't matter at all.

posted 03-30- 03:31 PM               

If a page is missing I'm entitled in law to demand the publisher supply the missing page.

If the cover describes the story falsely I'm entitled to sue for fraudulent advertising.

SDoE is falsely advertized and it has missing/faulty components. I paid money, not for the code but for the game which was advertized as "ultra realistic" and which has faulty components.

posted 03-30- 04:14 PM               

It says its dolby digital compatible (ultra realistic FM) just before its released they change it to just normal Dolby Pro Logic. Then on top of that some of the stats are wrong. It says its 100watts at what ever % of distortion. Turns out in a test by an independant lab its only capable of putting out 75watts. (watts are funny things lets not argue about them) AND THEN, the remote doesn't work with half of the stuff its supposed to. It works with some but not all.

I'm not saying they should have to add features or anything. All I would ask that they should put out the proper FM(I know that could be anything but most aggree they didn't even spin) and fix stuff like the damage bug and any other major bugs.

You guys are all saying this could backlash. And for sure it could. But rememeber the upside. Lets say it went through and won. Wouldn't that mean it had set a precedent and that would mean other company's would have to be more carefull to actually complete their products?

I don't think a lawsuit is the answer.

But I fully support a HUGE activision boycott. I'll go one futher. Pirate every Activision game you can. And then turn around and sell copys. LOL

posted 03-30- 04:20 PM               

Realistic would be defined as "A real Mustang loses control if the stick is pulled back too hard at high speed. In our sim the virtual Mustang loses control if the stick is pulled back too hard at high speed."

That would constitute a fair definition of realistic, loosely applied.

Ultra realistic would be defined as "A real Mustang behaves specifically such-and-such if the stick is pulled back too hard at high speed. In our sim the virtual Mustang exhibits almost exactly the same characteristics when the stick is pulled back too hard at high speed."

The term "realistic" is open, within common-sense constraints, to interpretation. The term "Ultra-realistic" is not. Ultra-realistic, in marketing terms, has a meaning that cannot be loosely defined. It is a claim that the behaviour of the product matches that of it's real-world counterpart extremely closely.

The FM's in the shipped version of SDoE didn't come close to even realistic, never mind ultra-realistic.

And A/C that take 100 cannon rounds without ill-effect cannot be described as taking damage ultra-realistically.

posted 03-30- 04:27 PM               

Some would say the sim was more realistic than anything else that came out at the time. It did come with the promised graphical detail, the planes promised, the open plane system, a mission editor, and online play.

I think the better analogy would be that of a tool. An all purpose tool said to work better than any tool of its kind before. A tool you bought based on its brand name and the hype surroundig it. You got it home and the tool did everything it said it would. But, not as well as you had hoped. It rounded off the courners of bolts. It wouldn't fit every bolt in your house. And if you modify the tool to do a particular task better, it looses its functionality as an all purpous tool. So you have to go back to the packaging and verify if the tool was said to specifically do everything you thought it would. Did they say it would fit every bolt in your house. Did they say it will never round off the heads of bolts. Did they say it could every task in your house, and did they say that if you modify the tool they will still honor their gaurantee. If the didn't make those specific promises, did they really "cheat" you?

Activision probably didn't cheat us when they sold the game. But they did leave us abandoned after the sale. I think if there is a claim, I think its best made on support. Then the issue is to what extent can they be held responsible for providing support to a product that they put on the market to be used and added to for years of on-line play. And, did they fall short of that obligation.

I have to watch myself here, because I haven't done consumer law in a long time. I don't want my words here to be construed as legal advice. I'm thinking outloud as I contemplate what if anything can or should be done.

posted 03-30- 05:17 PM               

ROF! ... spoken like a true lawyer.