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Author
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Topic: Screw the catchy subject heading, just read please.
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Jv44~Siggi
Pilot
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posted 03-29- 01:33 PM
   
Like the human race in general we here are debilitated by lack of purpose. Lots of talented people are flogging themselves for little reward other than the kudos of their fellow SDoEr's. We can change that.
At the risk of sounding arrogant I'm not posting this in order to elicit the usual watering-down responses. I have a vision that the majority will either accept and support or show little interest for.
My credentials...lots of energy, strong organisational abilities, clear vision and an in-depth understanding of player psychology.
My vision: A whole and complete component that will exist within SDoE in it's own right, a sim within a sim. An entity that we, and we alone, will plan, create, market and release, as is done with expansion packs for MFC.
The package: A Pacific Theatre.
The components: An all-water arena; A US Carrier and a Japanese Carrier; USN fighters, dive-bombers and torpedo-bombers; Japanese fighters, dive-bombers ans torpedo-bombers.
A dedicated server.
In order to facilitate such we need a dedicated organisation, made up of members of this community who have both the will and ability to undertake such a task.
Practicalities: We need to remedy anything that is currently amiss with SDoE's basic code, IF THAT IS POSSIBLE. If it's not, this proposal dies now.
We need to select from currently available items those that are suitable for this project, ie the Zero and F4U's. We need to bring them to a state of perfection.
We need to create the other components. Everything then has to be brought into a cohesive whole, thoroughly checked and refined and able to be put onto a disc as a complete add-on package for SDoE, along with the patches that would completely rectify SDoE's bugs.
We then need to market that package with a view to selling it online.
We need to establish a dedicated server for the sole use of Pacific SDoEr's.
Quite frankly I doubt there is sufficient critical mass here in the community to make all this possible. It's a vision, one I feel compelled to share. I have the energy and will but cannot, of course, manage to realise it alone. We don't need people who are simply able to create fantastic planes, we need people of will and commitment, people who can become excited and enthusiastic at the whole idea of sharing A COMMON PURPOSE.
And isn't that exactly what seperates the doer's from the common herd. I like to imagine that, lurking here, there are a sufficiency of doer's. Cynicism tells me there are not; fair service to hope tells me to chuck this idea out on the stoop and see if the cat brings it in.
This isn't world-revolution stuff, it's a pissy little game that billions have never heard of. But it's important to us and that gives it all the validity it needs. It can be a project that would give vast satisfaction to those that choose to be a part of it. We CAN put something on the shelves out there, IF we see the possibility of so doing. It is possible, we know that. It just takes that little leap of imagination to bring it alive.
What say? Anyone who would seriously consider getting involved please put your name and e-mail here, along with credentials. I'm not interested in anyone who wants "some land please" or "how about destroyers too". Walk before running, work within practical boundaries (yes, I've considered them at depth, from multiple angles).
Oh yes, my motives are NOT financial. I'm a dedicated simmer, my motives originate from my passion for WW2 AirCombat Sims.  IP: Logged |
Propwash
Pilot
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posted 03-29- 02:05 PM
He shoots, he scores!
If this doesn't show the need to fix the code in this game I don't know what does!
What an idea,
I doff my chapeau to you Siggi!Prop out IP: Logged |
Zurawski
Pilot
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posted 03-29- 03:05 PM
..Siggi,I agree with you 99.9% (You know I just can't agree completely) Packaging and distribution any direct FS core "fixes" would be in direct conflict with Parsofts/Inertias copyright. The rest so long as everything is "original" there is no binding legalities with the exception of rights to modify and disperse of any cooperative's work. Other than that ... sounds good!
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Jv44~Siggi
Pilot
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posted 03-29- 03:39 PM
As I understand it Zur, any add-on pack needs SDoE's core code to function. Without fixing the core code an add-on pack would suffer the same limitations SDoE suffers now.
Who IS allowed to fix the core code?IP: Logged |
Zurawski
Pilot
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posted 03-29- 04:04 PM
... Siggi,The choosen SOS group could effectively fix and possibly distribute and core fixes (Parsoft/Inertia might have to "OK" any distribution however) ... I however highly doubt any core fixes could legaly be packaged and sold for profit as even a "modified" core is still "technically" the property of Parsoft/Inertia. I gues what I'm saying is ... Anyone could fix it ... produce it ... package it, and possibly distribute it. I however don't think anyone could "charge" for it. NOW ... a pacific theme ... planes ... vehical ...ect. So long as one have permission of their creators ... can freely be sold/distributed. Am I making sense? ... (It's been a long day and can't tell) [This message has been edited by Zurawski (edited 03-29-2000).] IP: Logged |
charmstar
Pilot
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posted 03-29- 04:13 PM
Why would it have to be an SDOE addon? I'm looking forward to the first Openplane game that isn't chained to SDOE. There is the Openplane demo out there... its very basic, but all that would really need to happen is a couple of people who know networking code. Activision doesn't own the Openplane demo, so what's to stop Inertia from opensourcing that?
The advantage to doing it this way is that the sim could be sold as a standalone app, instead of just as an upgrade to SDOE.I bet if you could get a few guys coding network and interface, a couple guys on UI work, a few people handling design work (maybe OpenPlane 2.0 spec), a bunch doing terrain, plane, and object modeling and skinning, and a bunch working on FM and DM, it could turn into a pretty sweet deal. charm IP: Logged |
Jv44~Siggi
Pilot
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posted 03-29- 04:42 PM
Charmster, the planes don't contain the physics engine etc. That resides in the core code, the planes simply interact with it. With what's legally available we would not be able to produce an entire sim. We need SDoE's core code, but it's screwed up. If we can't get it fixed it's pointless to think about making an add-on pack.
I think it's time to drag activision's arse into court and force them to ante-up. They don't have a leg to stand on, they have a history of selling badly bugged games and it's time they were stopped.
Class-action lawsuit anyone? I'm perfectly serious about this. If Ultima-online's customers can do it so can we. Yes, it's a dirty job but if we ain't prepared to get our hands dirty we got no right to ever complain again.
Names here please, anyone who is prepared to help get this into court.IP: Logged |
goth
Pilot
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posted 03-29- 05:13 PM
retracted[This message has been edited by goth (edited 03-29-2000).] IP: Logged |
Whirlwind
Pilot
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posted 03-29- 05:32 PM
I suffer from ATD and couldn't make it through the entire Siggi posting. I have personally been looking at terrain engines and back at OpenGL (been a great while), but for other reasons. I've also been back on my game engine kick and am looking for a rounded indoor/outdoor engine to put a concept onto.Writing a new SDOE like engine will be a biatch. If such an endevor does get undertaken, I recommend looking at http://sourceforge.net/ for project management. IP: Logged |
Nat
Pilot
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posted 03-29- 05:50 PM
I do whole heartdly agree with Siggi on this one, I think with the ppl here there's no reason a true WW2 sim could be put together..infact, I'd go further than that and say that the ppl here could actually put together a very maketable "Century of Airwarfare" sim. I'm fairly sure that everything needed is already in SDOE, yes even guide missiles, as I mentioned to Pete Hawk about guidence for them soe time ago, is actually fairly simple (sounding) heh.. If it were not legal to distribute a sim based on the SDOE engine, then do the next best thing, put it together.. and take it to the ppl that own the code, and have them buy it! Depends on what you want I guess... to put out a game that will really kick ass and reap the rewards.. or put out the same game, and let intertia reap.. eaither way, the game gets out, and I'm sure the ppl that designed and built it would be credited.Anyway, just my thoughts.. although I've said these same things many times before. I am very sure of one thing though, if this were to happen... it would need alot of MH's time, you guys are good... but not that good (no offence meant at all), because when it comes to code.. who's the one that knows it better than anyone... see my point. I'd love to see this get off the ground.. but hoping never got anyone anywhere right, and I'm sorry to say that I honestly believe this will only ever be a hope, which is the greatest shame, considering how many very talented ppl are here... ~Nat~ IP: Logged |
Lothar
Pilot
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posted 03-29- 07:11 PM
I think there are a few reasons not to develop a new sim that acts as a module for SDOE. The biggest two reasons are that there are too many real problems with SDOE, and that we will get no support from SDOE's owners (Activision).A better idea is to develop a module for the next Openplane engine (Intertia's RC sim). This will give us a better engine and hopefully much greater support (SOS, the possiblity of making a stand-alone demo, etc.) Intertia has to be able to make money off this proposition, yet telling hard core sim people that their new Pacifc WW2 sim requires a 'toy' simulator in order to run might not work very well. A solution to this would be to create a seperate OpenPlane engine (much like the current OpenPlane demo) based on the codebase for the RC Sim product. This engine could be sold as a seperate product and could contain opensource interfaces for the front end and any other user-created parts. Unlike the current OpenPlane demo, it would contain multiplayer code, networking code, etc. Think of it like the Quake engine but without any levels. Using this engine we could develop the suggested WW2 Pacific game or anything else. If a limitation of the code becomes an issue (can't model depth charges accurately?) the opensource aspect would let people get in and change it. The more support that Intertia gives the user community, the better the modules produced are. The better the modules are, the more OpenPlane engines are sold. Since the code is all post-SDOE, the profits go to Inertia. Everyone wins. Also, the size of the development community will be proportional to the amount of the engine that is released as open source. This is what I'd like to see with SDOE. What do you think? IP: Logged |
Jv44~Siggi
Pilot
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posted 03-29- 07:20 PM
I agree with you Lothar that this SDoE is too flawed to make it worth anyone's while. As I said, work on a pacific theatre would be dependant on SDoE being put right first.
I think that is unlikely, to put it mildly.
I take it that R/C is going to be based on a vastly superior form of SDoE's code?
If that is the case I would agree that we wait to see how it pans-out. Everything being learned now could be put to use then, and at least the guys here would see a return on their months of hard work. IP: Logged |
ArgonV
Pilot
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posted 03-29- 07:48 PM
have any of yall bothered to ask the company that made the game and the publisher to what they think? You dont have to sell this "add-on" Just merly get it into the public. Then, possibly later when it catches on, you could possibly charge, although I wouldnt recomend it.IP: Logged |
Whirlwind
Pilot
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posted 03-29- 08:21 PM
Actually, the RC sim probably is new code, based on a few of MH and Mighty's postings and emails(SOS) about them not being able to release a new sim based on SDOE code. They still maintain the rights to use OpenPlane, though. Of course, only either can properly clear up the difference between the two. The only clear thing is SDOE is MH's hobby, since it offers no real cash, and the RC sim is his current bill payer. Food before fun. I'm of two minds about making an attempt to go into the computer game production world. It is just like Xmas, too commercial, expensive, it can burn you out, and you might not get what you want on zero day. The benefits are that you might get what you want. I can congradulate MH for doing what few people can do - turn a job into a hobby  . Of note, it would be totally up to the owners of OpenPlane as to whether or not a new sim using OpenPlane and done by the community is legit or not. Don't forget the data files as well. I don't think there is a from scratch and totally new plane out there, but I could be my usual wrong. A new sim would need new data files or a certain company could squash the project in the name of piracy. To keep mindlessly babbling, it would take at least a year and a half to get something resembling SDOE as it is without a good graphics engine to start on. Then you have the AI, the AE physics, the UI, and most importantly, the feature set - the killer. IP: Logged |
Lothar
Pilot
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posted 03-29- 09:01 PM
Yeah, starting from scratch isn't feasible. My thinking is that Inertia could make a very open flight sim engine with a minimum amount of effort and still protect thier intellectual property. This would be done by using as much of the current openplane engine code as possible, and making as many opensource interfaces to this code as possible. The idea is to give builders the most power, give Inertia another product that they can sell (as opposed to SDOE, which they make no money from), and do it all with a minimum of effort.
I'm making a lot of assumptions here and I could be way off base. Maybe MH could comment? IP: Logged |
Michael
Pilot
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posted 03-29- 09:45 PM
To properly do carriers with A.I. that land and take off on them (and lots of other things that would be needed), you need to alter the game engine. I understand from M.H.'s posts that either Parsoft or Inertia own the code and might be prepared to let some people mess with parts of it (S.O.S.) But you would have to change it quite significantly and it may be you need all of it to do the job properly. If it turns out you need a fairly free hand with all of the code, then you have to negotiate the right to use it - by buying the right to do so under certain conditions, either on a flat fee or or a percentage of sales or some other basis. In other words you would need to raise capital.In this latter scenario, in addition to money needed to acquire the code you would likely need to be able to hire some people to work on the project. Without at least some people full time, you are unlikely to get a professional looking cohesive project that would sell well. You also end up having to have some way to distribute the result in large volumes. In other words, unless Semi Open Source happens and is very wide in it's scope, you will have a similar difficulty to that which Inertia has in trying to find someone to finance/publish such a project. If, however, you can change the engine sufficiently through S.O.S., and persuade Inertia to release the changes as a "patch" then you wouldn't have the problem of not being able to sell/distribute the altered engine. IP: Logged |
Jv44~Siggi
Pilot
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posted 03-29- 09:52 PM
I'm curious to know, what kind of money did activision pay Parsoft for SDoE? A ballpark figure would do, guesses are welcome also. IP: Logged | |
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